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why does India have the highest rate of incest

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Theowne

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Also, if there is no disclaimer, why would the true stories be intermingled with false ones? Not being able to know the difference would seem to defeat the purpose of teaching or it would ruin the integrity of the scripture, IMO. I am basing this on the idea that these secondary scriptures aide in interpreting and understanding the main scriptures.

There is no intermingling. The Puranas also contain stories of Gods being hateful and mean. Does this mean that Hinduism promotes worshipping evil Gods? No (unless you're arunma). They are stories, fables which are meant to build upon the philosophical for those who cannot understand them. It is the actions and lesson which is supposed to be taken into consideration, not the geniunness of the character. Like the stories of vengeful angry Gods are supposed to be about the human nature of jealousy or hatred, the story saladin so gracefully posted here is about sexual tendencies of men. In neither case is the story meant to teach the philosophy of the God of the Hindu religion. There is elsewhere to find that. These are stories meant to have a certain lesson derived from them.

And also, I find your notion of a "disclaimer" to be a bit ludicrous. I imagine that at the time that the Puranas came to be, there would not have been a need for a "disclaimer" on the first page.
 
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urnotme

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saladin1970 said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/259959.stm

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Delhi organisation RAHI said 76% of respondents to its survey had been abused when they were children - 40% of those by a family member. [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]The report suggests that disbelief, denial and cover-up to preserve the family reputation is often put before the individual child. [/font]
Strange you used the bbc as a reference but whenn I posted an article from there about muslims in china a muslim said it was 99 percent false.
 
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saladin1970

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urnotme said:
Strange you used the bbc as a reference but whenn I posted an article from there about muslims in china a muslim said it was 99 percent false.

The BBC is always 100% accurate, unless it posts something about Islam, and then if it favours Islam it is accurate and if it doesn't it is inaccurate.

Something about government policy :cool:
 
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urnotme

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bless_sins said:
TO Theowne,

Than you for posting that, and I hope everyone learns the lesson: things aren't what they seem to be.

From the Puran it is perfectly clear that incest was committed by Brahma (who I think, but am not sure, is a demi-God).
However, there is a different interpretation of this.
The HIndu religion obviously does not justify any thing of the sort.

Similarly, those who accuse the Quran of justifying killing non-Muslims (Theowne, I am talking about you), should know that things arent what they seem to be.

Muslims have a different explanation for all the verse you accuse to be oprdering murder, and other evil stuff etc...
From The koran and hadiths it's very clear that mohammed married a 6 year old and promtes war. I'm not saying it says that but muslims post half a page or more of the koran and a page or more to tell us how all these people are converting. . He should be able to defend hinduism too.
 
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saladin1970

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urnotme said:
From The koran and hadiths it's very clear that mohammed married a 6 year old and promtes war. I'm not saying it says that but muslims post half a page or more of the koran and a page or more to tell us how all these people are converting. . He should be able to defend hinduism too.

don't know what quran and hadiths you are reading, Mohammed pbuh married Ayshe when she had reached puberty at the age of 9.

Muslims have never had a similar system to the US where the age of consent was 10 whether you were married or not, or whether the girl had reached puberty
http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm

In Islam you had to be married and the girl had to have reached puberty
 
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sefroth77

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saladin1970 said:
exactly secondary scriptures are explanations of primary scriptures,

and so if in the secondary scripture we have the moral lesson of brahim lusting after his daughter and quoting the scriptures to justify it, then if anything this is more closer to the truth as it is the explanation of the primary texts.

You keep on digging yourself into a deeper hole theowne


Plain Accusation nothingelse. You are trying very hard to put down other religions while making Islam look great. Infact its the other way round.
 
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faithful1also

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I've always heard Muhammad married Aisha at age 6 but did not have intercourse with her until she reached 9.

And having sex just because she was having her period than does not mean that is morally right. She was just a child.

Most countries would put a man like that in jail nowadays.
 
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sefroth77

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saladin1970 said:
will you renounce these evil practices and the books that promote such practices???
  • [size=+1]Aitareya Brahmana.III.33 [/size]
  • [size=+1]Satapatha Brahmana.I.7.4.1ff; XIV, 4.2.1ff; [/size]
  • [size=+1]Matsya Purana.III.32 ff; [/size]
  • [size=+1]Bhagavata Purana.III.12.28ff.[/size]

What is these ?? Quotations ?? All Lies by Islamic individuals to put Hindusim down to the core.

http://www.dharmakshetra.com/avatars/Matsya%20Purans.html
the above link gives the complete matsya purana.

The verse you gave above dosen't exist. I could'nt get hold of the other scriptures, this is why Islamic individuals often like to quote from these scriptures knowing that its difficult for people to get hold of these scirptures. All of it is Lies. I will shorty proof to you why all of these are lies. i'll create a new thread.
 
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urnotme

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indianx said:
No, it's not. You show me a reputable source that says India has the highest rate of incest and I will believe you.

Jeez, why do people lie in forums for the most trivial of things.
It evidently has a high rate thou. I don't know how high. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040125/herworld.htm
THE close knit family system in India masks an alarming amount of sexual abuse of children by family members, according to the report of a recent survey by an NGO. The report notes that more and more girls are being sexually abused in their childhood.

According to the findings of the survey conducted by RAHI (Recovering and healing from incest) Foundation among capital’s college students, an overwhelming 70.5 per cent girls said that women college students "talk" about their childhood sexual abuse experiences, including incest.

Incest is, by far, the most common but least talked about oppression that many young girls silently suffer and survive in the country.
"We can substantiate this fact by the findings of another survey conducted by our organisation sometime back. Out of 600 women that we spoke to as many as 40 per cent admitted to incest," Gupta says, adding according to the main findings three-quarters of upper and middle class Indian women are abused by family members — more than often an uncle, a cousin or an elder brother.
Mental Health professionals say the particular problem in India is that the concept of family is almost sacred, and abuse, if it happens is met with disbelief.
"The structure and fabric of the Indian family system is such that most of the incest cases go unreported. Even if the family members come to know about it, they try to cover it up due to fear of harming the name of the family", says Dr Jitendra Nagpal, consultant psychiatrist at Vidyasagar Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences (VIMHANS), Delhi.
I don't know who they talked to but 40% is a high rate of incest.
 
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urnotme

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saladin1970 said:
well, given that 40% is EXTREMELY high, it is given
I wonder how much of that was done by muslims. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4235999.stm

Of the 145 million Muslims in India, about 20 million are Shias.

But now Shias are saying they have been sidelined by the Sunni-dominated law board, which was set up in 1972.

A group of Muslim women have also formed a breakaway group
"It was time that we stood for our rights," says Maulana Mohammed Athar, president of the breakaway All India Shia Personal Law Board.
"We have formed a forum of ourselves because the AIMPLB never took interest in our well being."
Shias and Sunnis do not interpret family laws in a similar way.
The Shias say they don't believe in the controversial "triple talaq" or instant divorce - a system wherein a Muslim man can divorce his wife in a matter of minutes.
There are also differences in inheritance laws.

Among the Sunnis, a man's sister - along with his children- is entitled to a share of inheritance after his death.
When a Shia man dies, his property is only inherited by his children. No other family member has any claim.
"We also have different mosques and burial grounds", says Shia priest, Sayeed Ali.
"We abide by the teachings of the Lord and the Prophet. Later the caliphs made certain modifications to these civil laws, which were never accepted by the Shia community."

The newly formed All India Shia Personal Law Board has 69 members compared to 204 members in the AIMPLB.
The Shia body has the support of the erstwhile royal family of Lucknow - some 2000 descendants of the family claim to have extended their support.
"We can be now sure that our rights will be safeguarded," a family member said.

'Nothing but a joke'
What is unmistakable, they say, are the winds of change blowing through the world's second largest Muslim population.

It was time that we stood for our rights
Maulana Mohammed Athar, All India Shia Personal Law Board

Earlier this month, a group of women formed the All India Muslim Women's Personal Law Board alleging that the religion's top body of had been ignoring the rights of Muslim women.
This evoked a strong reaction from the AIMPLB.
"It is nothing but a joke. We strongly condemn it," a senior member Maulana Sajjad Nomani told reporters.
Maulana Nomani believes that community members who are forming separate bodies for resolving their issues were not familiar with the constitution of the board.
The All India Muslim Women's Personal Law Board was founded with 35 members.
Its General Secretary, Parveen Abdi, says the women were forced to set up a separate body because their rights were being ignored.
"Women have gone through hell. They became victims of incest, they faced forced marriages, whimsical talaqs and biased judgments. There seemed to be no one to take up the suffering woman's cause, not the least the AIMPLB," Ms Abdi says.
Only time will tell whether the breakaway Shia group or the women's group will be able to muster enough support to become a viable and influential bodies among India's 145 million Muslims.
 
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peaceful soul

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saladin1970 said:
exactly secondary scriptures are explanations of primary scriptures,

and so if in the secondary scripture we have the moral lesson of brahim lusting after his daughter and quoting the scriptures to justify it, then if anything this is more closer to the truth as it is the explanation of the primary texts.

You keep on digging yourself into a deeper hole theowne

This was what I was trying to understand, but it seems that they don't not understand that I understand what they believe. Although I can understand their belief, it does not add up. at least to me. You and I agree to that.

I'm trying to understand why would there be some false stories in a holy scripture to prove a point and the reader can not know which ones are true and which ones are not. Furthermore, why fill the mind with corrupted thoughts just to make a moral point? If something is false, we should know that it is false, so that we can properly relate it to the main scriptures, IMO. To me, this goes against scriptural integrity.


And you are right, saladin1970. If the secondary source reflects the primary, then it says a lot about the primary, whether the evenets happened or not.
 
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CocaCola

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saladin1970

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faithful1also said:
I've always heard Muhammad married Aisha at age 6 but did not have intercourse with her until she reached 9.

And having sex just because she was having her period than does not mean that is morally right. She was just a child.

Most countries would put a man like that in jail nowadays.

yep, many people would consider Mary at the age of 14,15 or 16 to be a child and would have put Joseph in jail as well.

You see today, we have a billion dollar industry (called state education)just to keep people in a child like state until they are well into their 20's. In the real world 9,10 11 year olds looked after their household, worked and were every bit as mature if not maturer than todays 20 year olds
 
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peaceful soul

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Theowne said:
If you had actually read the paragraph, you would know. First off, as indianx said, Puranas are not primary vedic Scriptures, they could be called "secondary scriptures". They are not meant to be deep philisophical texts, they're the opposite, meant to ground a set of lessons or morals to those who cannot comprehend the philosophy of the primaryscriptures. In Puranas, neither genuineness of the character is important, nor is the purity and truthfulness of the story. Only the moral is important. This is why there are some popular religious stories (such as Satyanarayan Katha), where even gods are depicted as mean, power-hungry and revengeful, and in some cases outright mean and partial. This story is supposed to be about the sexual instinct and lust by men, represented by Brahma and his daughter.

Since I have not read the scriptures, I am at a disadvantage.

I read and that is why I asked the question. Whether they are meant to be philosophical or not, it is their content that I am trying to authenticate. If they support the primary, then they are to be scrutinized along with the primary. Just because they are not considered as important, they still carry a lot of weight from my perspective. When I read something, I want to be able to separate true from false. That is just as important to understanding and relating to the scriptures as their moral goal.
 
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CocaCola

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peaceful soul said:
This was what I was trying to understand, but it seems that they don't not understand that I understand what they believe. Although I can understand their belief, it does not add up. at least to me. You and I agree to that.

I'm trying to understand why would there be some false stories in a holy scripture to prove a point and the reader can not know which ones are true and which ones are not. Furthermore, why fill the mind with corrupted thoughts just to make a moral point? If something is false, we should know that it is false, so that we can properly relate it to the main scriptures, IMO. To me, this goes against scriptural integrity.


And you are right, saladin1970. If the secondary source reflects the primary, then it says a lot about the primary, whether the evenets happened or not.

i think you are commenting on verses which are posted here without sources and commentries. That's rather silly. It's something like Mohammed raping 8 year old ayesha and commenting on christian events highlighted in www.evilbible.com :doh:

Atleast, sensible posters like you should remain away from hate filled insane and propaganda posts.
 
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peaceful soul

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indianx said:
A Hindu, with any semblance of knowledge about his religion, would know the meaning and role of Puranas in his religion. The true stories are not intermingled with the so-called 'false' ones, they are clearly set apart, which is exactly why we're talking about 'Puranas', they are set apart.

It's sort of like this, I mean not exactly, but maybe a bit similar. There are occurences of incest in the Bible, but does that mean a Christian reading those things is suddenly going to go out and start having sex with his relatives. The Christian already has knowledge of the context in which these things occur (historical and cultural), so he takes them at their face value and leaves them.

If I understood from an earlier post, it was said that they are mixed together. That lead my to ask if there any way of knowing the truth in their existence. So now I am being told that one can know which events are true and which ones are not. OK, then. Since I read this post out of order, you have then answered one of my other posts.

Thanks.
 
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peaceful soul

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CocaCola said:
i think you are commenting on verses which are posted here without sources and commentries. That's rather silly. It's something like Mohammed raping 8 year old ayesha and commenting on christian events highlighted in www.evilbible.com :doh:

Atleast, sensible posters like you should remain away from hate filled insane and propaganda posts.

I am not commenting on any verses. I am trying to understand something in relation to the scriptures. I think that my question was answered by indianx. I did not read the post in order; so, it may not make sense to you at this point. I apologize.
 
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Theowne

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peaceful soul said:
And you are right, saladin1970. If the secondary source reflects the primary, then it says a lot about the primary, whether the evenets happened or not.

Haven't you read any of the things I have written? Do you not understand the point of this tale or have you decided to accept saladin's (as a non-Hindu) interpretation of things? I suggest you go back and read the paragraph that explains what this story is saying, instead of analyzing the character motives and actions - which is not what it's supposed to be about, seeing as the Puranas also contain stories of separate Gods who are vengeful (which clashes with what is told in the BG or else).

The Puranas are stories, some fables like these, and some based on kings and queens and such. In the end, the stories are meant to get a message across. I think you should look at the story that saladin quotes again. Look at the way it is written and how it appears. Look at the way it is worded and how it comes off as. The intent should be clear.

I'm trying to understand why would there be some false stories in a holy scripture to prove a point and the reader can not know which ones are true and which ones are not. Furthermore, why fill the mind with corrupted thoughts just to make a moral point? If something is false, we should know that it is false, so that we can properly relate it to the main scriptures, IMO. To me, this goes against scriptural integrity.

You are calling the Puranas like they are "holy scriptures" like the Bible is to Christians, that is not the case. It was already explained that Puranas were written for a specific purpose and are not to be mixed up with the Vedas or the Bhagavad Gita.
 
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indianx

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It was already explained that Puranas were written for a specific purpose and are not to be mixed up with the Vedas or the Bhagavad Gita.

Right. I think it will be helpful for the non-Hindus to understand the role of Puranas more if they know that they are the ones that contain information on Ayurvedic medicine, science, etc.
 
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