why does India have the highest rate of incest

[GodsNhilist]

(deleted) - no longer a member here.

 

[saladin1970]

I am sorry theodone but you are pushing the boundaries here.

"How could a daughter give consent to her own father? Padma refused. Brahma could not give up his desire. He began to quote the Vedas to convince her that there was nothing wrong in having sex with anyone, anytime, anywhere for the sake of giving birth to a child."

There is ONLY one moral lesson to be learnt from this , and that is Brahma, the source of knowledge and wisdom and hence a role model sought after his daughter and justified, just as millions of indians do today (hence the high statistics)

 

[SpaceIsThePlace]

I am sorry theodone but you are pushing the boundaries here.

"How could a daughter give consent to her own father? Padma refused. Brahma could not give up his desire. He began to quote the Vedas to convince her that there was nothing wrong in having sex with anyone, anytime, anywhere for the sake of giving birth to a child."

There is ONLY one moral lesson to be learnt from this , and that is Brahma, the source of knowledge and wisdom and hence a role model sought after his daughter and justified, just as millions of indians do today (hence the high statistics)

question for Saladin: do you actually believe everything you read or are you just trying to be a punk?

 

[indianx]

There is a huge error of causality right there. You have no evidence to prove that the behaviour of some Indians (and there are Muslim and Christian Indians) is a direct result of a few sentences in the Puranas.

I never expected this from you guys. It is me who always points out an error of causality when people connect modern day Islamic violence to Muhammad's supposed acts of violence. If you look back at my posts before you came here, I attributed their acts to their political conditions, not the Quran, which I have respect for, since Malcolm X is one of my heroes.

 

[Theowne]

I am sorry theodone but you are pushing the boundaries here.

"How could a daughter give consent to her own father? Padma refused. Brahma could not give up his desire. He began to quote the Vedas to convince her that there was nothing wrong in having sex with anyone, anytime, anywhere for the sake of giving birth to a child."

There is ONLY one moral lesson to be learnt from this , and that is Brahma, the source of knowledge and wisdom and hence a role model sought after his daughter and justified, just as millions of indians do today (hence the high statistics)

Brahma did not go after his daughter, seeing as that is impossible seeing as all deities are parts and parcel of the same Supreme Being.

It is a story, and is not meant to be viewed as a real event. "Puranas are tales and fables, which were created in the ancient times to expound teachings of the primary scriptures (called Sruti) for the benefit of those, who could not comprehend the deep philosophy of the primary scriptures." Seems directed at you

So again, I will repost what I said earlier. I don't know how long it will take until you can comprehend it all, but I will keep reposting until it gets through to you.

quote"
Sexual energy is the most potent energy in humans and animals. In animals, it is controlled by the Nature through a control system called instinct. In humans, it is controlled by the free will exerted by the mind in three different ways. By self-control (celibacy), this energy is transformed into spiritual energy, as has been demonstrated by Yogis of India over thousands of years. In addition to attaining spiritual perfection, these Yogis were able to develop supernatural powers by transformation of this energy. Through the institution of marriage, this energy is transformed for constructive purposes, such as raising one's family. If uncontrolled, sexual instinct can lead to one's own physical and spiritual degeneration. In Hindu tradition, a gown-up unmarried daughter is advised to keep a distance from her own male relatives and friends. Even the father is advised not to spend time alone even with his own unmarried grown-up daughter, lest the impulse may overtake his judgment. In Hindu culture, at least in ancient times, many restrictions were placed on women for this very reason. With this background, let us analyze the above verse.

"On seeing his beautiful daughter Padma, Brahma was sexually excited. He wooed his daughter and wanted to copulate with her."

Here the story is not viewed to be real, only the moral is to be considered important. The moral of this story is that a gown-up unmarried girl should not be allowed to remain alone in the company of a male. This guidance even applies to the father of that girl. This is why, in Hindu culture, even a father is advised not to spend time alone with his own grown-up unmarried daughter. This is the message the ancients wanted to bring forth for their society through the above verse.

"How could a daughter give consent to her own father? Padma refused. Brahma could not give up his desire. He began to quote the Vedas to convince her that there was nothing wrong in having sex with anyone, anytime, anywhere for the sake of giving birth to a child."

This simply means that the sexual instinct is powerful (it does not matter, whether it is a Hindu or anyone else) and a man will try to give all plausible arguments to seduce the woman (even try to interpret scriptures to help satisfy his lust). No Hindu scripture allows free sex in order to give birth to a child. Sexual energy must be controlled through the institution of marriage to create a family in accordance with the demands of Dharma (Hindu moral and ethical code).

In conclusion, the above verse (and entire Hindu mythology) must be studied with questioning attitude. Why should such a verse appear in a scripture? What is the purpose of such a description? Once such questions are raised, the answers are intuitive.

I reviewed the contents of the web site: http://www.periyar.org/mr/984mr12.htm
It appears to me that the intent of the sponsors is to literally translate Sanskrit words into English and make their conclusions based upon their own understanding (rather misunderstanding). A conditioned mind cannot see with clarity, because its own conditioning clouds its vision./quote"

 

[saladin1970]

you can quote it as much as you like but it doesn't address the point of the gods ( a role model) justifying sex with his daughters by claiming they are from the scriptures (whether true or not). Since brahma is the source of scriptures it matters not.

Whatever way you look at it, you can see quite clearly that this sciptual evidence and accont of Brahma has given millions of men permission to sexual abuse their children.

 

[indianx]

Brahma is not the source of the scriptures. Please, for honesty's sake, know something about Hinduism before you lie.

Again, it is so easy for people to attack Islam the same way and people have done so in this forum (search for Mohammad and Aisha in the forum search). My Muslim friend, bless_sins, made an excellent point when he said it is up to us to correct these misconceptions, not spread them, saladin.

 

[Theowne]

you can quote it as much as you like but it doesn't address the point of the gods ( a role model) justifying sex with his daughters by claiming they are from the scriptures (whether true or not). Since brahma is the source of scriptures it matters not.

Whatever way you look at it, you can see quite clearly that this sciptual evidence and accont of Brahma has given millions of men permission to sexual abuse their children.

You still have not read the paragraph, saladin. Don't make me requote it.

You have also not read the fact that the Puranas are not intended to be real stories and therefore the God do not justify sex with their daughters, but of course you will never admit it because you love to make false accusations.

It is also impossible seeing as according to Hindu philosophy all Gods are manifestatoins or aspects of the same Supreme Being. And by that aspect it's clear that this story of one god lusting after another cannot be true, and this merely supports the fact that the Puranas are not intended to be real stories.

I have listed all these reasons above. I hope you will actually give me answer this time instead of "I don't care because now I can keep saying this and it sounds good"

 

[saladin1970]

You still have not read the paragraph, saladin. Don't make me requote it.

You have also not read the fact that the Puranas are not intended to be real stories and therefore the God do not justify sex with their daughters, but of course you will never admit it because you love to make false accusations.

It is also impossible seeing as according to Hindu philosophy all Gods are manifestatoins or aspects of the same Supreme Being. And by that aspect it's clear that this story of one god lusting after another cannot be true, and this merely supports the fact that the Puranas are not intended to be real stories.

I have listed all these reasons above. I hope you will actually give me answer this time instead of "I don't care because now I can keep saying this and it sounds good"

if they are NOT real stories, then what are they doing there? Scriptures serve a purpose. If they serve no purpose then the scripture is corrupt and worthless.

 

[indianx]

I believe polygone made a post about the role of Puranas in relation to the original Vedic scriptures a while back, explaining it in more detail that I can go into now. Dammit, where is the guy when you need him?

 

[Theowne]

if they are NOT real stories, then what are they doing there? Scriptures serve a purpose. If they serve no purpose then the scripture is corrupt and worthless.

If you had actually read the paragraph, you would know. First off, as indianx said, Puranas are not primary vedic Scriptures, they could be called "secondary scriptures". They are not meant to be deep philisophical texts, they're the opposite, meant to ground a set of lessons or morals to those who cannot comprehend the philosophy of the primaryscriptures. In Puranas, neither genuineness of the character is important, nor is the purity and truthfulness of the story. Only the moral is important. This is why there are some popular religious stories (such as Satyanarayan Katha), where even gods are depicted as mean, power-hungry and revengeful, and in some cases outright mean and partial. This story is supposed to be about the sexual instinct and lust by men, represented by Brahma and his daughter.

 

[saladin1970]

exactly secondary scriptures are explanations of primary scriptures,

and so if in the secondary scripture we have the moral lesson of brahim lusting after his daughter and quoting the scriptures to justify it, then if anything this is more closer to the truth as it is the explanation of the primary texts.

You keep on digging yourself into a deeper hole theowne

 

[indianx]

Show me where exactly in the primary scriptures, what you say is supported, and show me where in the relevant puranas, they have 'quoted the scriptures to justify it.' The intention of the particular verses was that lusting after women is wrong and that is the message that Hindus who read it get.

Again, people would say Muhammad sleeping with a 9-year old girl would be tantamount to pedophilia. But, there is probably a proper context for Muslims to understand it in to get the message properly.

The minimum age of marriage for females in Iran was 9 before 2002. Now, it is 13.

 

[Theowne]

exactly secondary scriptures are explanations of primary scriptures,

and so if in the secondary scripture we have the moral lesson of brahim lusting after his daughter and quoting the scriptures to justify it, then if anything this is more closer to the truth as it is the explanation of the primary texts.

You keep on digging yourself into a deeper hole theowne

And you're going in circles, you fail to read anything I post then repeat what you say a few posts earlier. Unless you can stop acting foolish and actually read something for once, it will be very hard for me or others to take you seriously.

I am going to repeat this one last time.

The story is not a real event. The Puranas are not meant to be dictations of real events. They are also not primary scriptures.

The scriptures that this story tries to explain probably refers to lust. In this story, the lesson that it is trying to explain is that it is not ideal to leave a girl in the company of an older man because the sexual instinct is powerful and feelings of lust may be aroused. The man may also then begin to use any means in order to justify this behaviour.

The story is impossible to be real because Hinduism teaches that all gods are part and parcel of the Supreme Being. So already your accusation that Hindu Gods lust after daughters and whatnot is false.

Your second accusation is that because of this Hindu scriptures teach incest. I have already stated the Puranas are not primary scriptures and the circumstances are not intended to be viewed as real, nor are the characters portrayed in geuineness.

I have also told you that it is the lesson that is to be learned, not the actions or portrayals, because that is not what the Puranas are. If you wish to learn about the nature of Gods I suggest you read something else, like the Bhagavad Gita. The story here is to portray sexual instinct that a man may have. This is merely represented by using Brahma.

Saladin, if you have anything worthwhile to say on this subject, say it now. If you are going to keep flailing around in circles I think it's time to end this conversation.

 

[Silent Enigma]

Looks like the Muslims and Hindus are going back and forth with the sex threads.

 

[Theowne]

No, I think it's more that one Hindu and one Muslim are going back and forth with these sex threads.

 

[peaceful soul]

I just need a few questions answered for clarity. I can see both sides of the discussion.

1. Do these stories (moral teachings) have a disclaimer so that a casual reader can know that they shouldn't take these too heavily?
2. If not, why would this be the case? It would lead those who are not aware to take things at face value.
3. Also, if there is no disclaimer, why would the true stories be intermingled with false ones? Not being able to know the difference would seem to defeat the purpose of teaching or it would ruin the integrity of the scripture, IMO. I am basing this on the idea that these secondary scriptures aide in interpreting and understanding the main scriptures.

• Comment: Whether true or not, it does seem strange to me that such stories would exist as lessons on morality when they seem to promote immorality just as much, if not more, as one Muslim has pointed out.
• Comment: I often call statistics "mathematical lies" due to their ability to be twisted to conform to almost any representation imaginable. I guess the only way to get a better picture, since polling the entire population is not realistic, is to randomly choose perhaps 600 people of a large population over and over (perhaps 50 or more times) and average those samples as if each of the 50 or so polls represent a single piece of data. Then find the mean of those 50 + points. This is referred to as a "sample mean": averaging the 50 averages or finding the mean of many means.

I can't stress it enough to look at things in full context. It can not be overemphasized!

 

[indianx]

Do these stories (moral teachings) have a disclaimer so that a casual reader can know that they shouldn't take these too heavily?
If not, why would this be the case? It would lead those who are not aware to take things at face value.
Also, if there is no disclaimer, why would the true stories be intermingled with false ones? Not being able to know the difference would seem to defeat the purpose of teaching or it would ruin the integrity of the scripture, IMO. I am basing this on the idea that these secondary scriptures aide in interpreting and understanding the main scriptures.

A Hindu, with any semblance of knowledge about his religion, would know the meaning and role of Puranas in his religion. The true stories are not intermingled with the so-called 'false' ones, they are clearly set apart, which is exactly why we're talking about 'Puranas', they are set apart.

It's sort of like this, I mean not exactly, but maybe a bit similar. There are occurences of incest in the Bible, but does that mean a Christian reading those things is suddenly going to go out and start having sex with his relatives. The Christian already has knowledge of the context in which these things occur (historical and cultural), so he takes them at their face value and leaves them.

 

[saladin1970]

Show me where exactly in the primary scriptures, what you say is supported, and show me where in the relevant puranas, they have 'quoted the scriptures to justify it.' The intention of the particular verses was that lusting after women is wrong and that is the message that Hindus who read it get.

Again, people would say Muhammad sleeping with a 9-year old girl would be tantamount to pedophilia. But, there is probably a proper context for Muslims to understand it in to get the message properly.

The minimum age of marriage for females in Iran was 9 before 2002. Now, it is 13.

and in california in the early 19th century it was 10 and that was just for fun?
what is your point

 

[saladin1970]

Show me where exactly in the primary scriptures, what you say is supported, and show me where in the relevant puranas, they have 'quoted the scriptures to justify it.' The intention of the particular verses was that lusting after women is wrong and that is the message that Hindus who read it get.

Again, people would say Muhammad sleeping with a 9-year old girl would be tantamount to pedophilia. But, there is probably a proper context for Muslims to understand it in to get the message properly.

The minimum age of marriage for females in Iran was 9 before 2002. Now, it is 13.

and in california in the early 19th century it was 10 and that was just for fun? forget anything about having to marry your partner and provide for the rest of your life

so what is your point?