Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

[Moral Orel]

The common theistic answer is that free will does not necessitate suffering, but it does give rise to the possibility of suffering (via evil acts freely chosen). Thus when God created free will he did not create suffering, but he did create something that had the possibility of resulting in suffering.

On such an account the theist can point to free will as the sufficient cause of suffering without committing themselves to the position that suffering is a necessary consequence of free will.

If it isn't a necessary consequence, then God built us intentionally poorly so that we'd screw up.

 

[Ken-1122]

If you're a Young Earth Creationist that's a legitimate question, but if you're an evolutionist then the answer is a bit simpler...this kinda stuff takes time.

I need you to assume I am a Young Earth Creationist because as an evolutionist the idea that all of mankind is the seed of Adam and Eve who were created as adults who were morally perfect flies in the face of evolution. So….. whatcha got?

 

[partinobodycular]

I need you to assume I am a Young Earth Creationist because as an evolutionist the idea that all of mankind is the seed of Adam and Eve who were created as adults who were morally perfect flies in the face of evolution.

So….. whatcha got?

Ummm, I've got a brain and a nonconformist attitude, so I'm gonna assume that the story of Adam and Eve is metaphorical. Now if you wanna assume that the story of Adam and Eve is historical fact then awesome, go right ahead. But somehow I think that you don't really believe that.

 

[Mink61]

According to the Bible, isn't God intolerant of sin? Doesn't he claim to be a jealous God? Isn't he also judgmental?

There's a difference between how we judge and how God judges.

We judge without knowledge.
God judges with knowledge.

We judge without mercy.
God judges with mercy.

We judge with prejudices.
God judges without prejudices.

We judge with ignorance.
God judges with wisdom.

You guys seem to be making a good hash of the idea that God could do away with suffering, but the thread is specifically about "doing something about suffering". Granted doing away with suffering is doing something from God's perspective; but what about doing something from our perspective?

I always find it amusing how often non-believers are so focused on what God "should" or "shouldn't" do, without figuring US into the equation.

I am not comparing the love of sinners to the love of Christ, I’m comparing the love of sinners who are not Christian to the love of sinners who ARE Christian.

Yeah; especially when he didn't have to! All he had to do is create mankind WITHOUT the desire to sin and none of that would have been necessary.

If God created us without the desire to sin, he'd be creating us without free will.

Free will is about having the ability to choose. In order to choose, we need more than one possibility to choose from.

 

[partinobodycular]

If God created us without the desire to sin, he'd be creating us without free will.

I fail to see how the second bit follows from the first bit. The knowledge of sin is one thing, but the desire to sin is quite another.

Surely you're not suggesting that because God has free will He must also have the desire to sin.

 

[Mink61]

Mink61 said: ↑
If God created us without the desire to sin, he'd be creating us without free will.

I fail to see how the second bit follows from the first bit. The knowledge of sin is one thing, but the desire to sin is quite another.

Not everyone has the 'desire' to sin.

[Surely you're not suggesting that because God has free will He must also have the desire to sin.

Of course not. But then again, WE aren't God!

 

[partinobodycular]

Not everyone has the 'desire' to sin.

But this then becomes @Moral Orel's question, if some of us lack the desire to sin, why not all of us?

 

[ruthiesea]

The man asked the almighty, “Why do you allow such suffering in the world?”
Hashem answered, “Why do you?”

 

[partinobodycular]

But this then becomes @Moral Orel's question, if some of us lack the desire to sin, why not all of us?

Now I could posit an answer to this question which might be of interest to @Ken-1122, or of interest to no one.

Genesis and the bible describes the evolution of man from creation to its ultimate destiny. Within that destiny there are two distinct paths which begin with the attainment of reason, (the knowledge of good and evil), and end in either what the bible describes as heaven, or what it describes as hell.

Suffering is simply the price that that journey inevitably exacts.

Now could God have created man without our having to suffer...no. God created man, and man in that journey from self-awareness to destiny created suffering.

 

[Mink61]

But this then becomes @Moral Orel's question, if some of us lack the desire to sin, why not all of us?

Because sin is a choice. God wants us to choose.

Choose to love God...or not.
Choose to love others...or not.

If love isn't freely chosen, and/or freely given, IT'S NOT LOVE. The only way that can happen is if there are choices besides love.

Now I could posit an answer to this question which might be of interest to @Ken-1122, or of interest to no one.

Genesis and the bible describes the evolution of man from creation to its ultimate destiny. Within that destiny there are two distinct paths which begin with the attainment of reason, (the knowledge of good and evil), and end in either what the bible describes as heaven, or what it describes as hell.

Suffering is simply the price that that journey inevitably exacts.

Now could God have created man without our having to suffer...no. God created man, and man in that journey from self-awareness to destiny created suffering.

I agree.

 

[zippy2006]

If it isn't a necessary consequence, then God built us intentionally poorly so that we'd screw up.

But why would you think that? And do you have an argument for such a claim?

It seems to me that your line of argument in post #445 and elsewhere depends on the idea that those with free will will necessarily sin (i.e. sin is a necessary consequence of free will). That's just to say that those with free will are not free to not-sin, or more simply: those with free will are not free. Hence the contradiction arises, and it would seem that more than anything else you are simply denying the possibility of free will.

Once we accept free will what I said in #450 follows naturally. Free will means that one's actions flow from oneself, and are contingent. Thus once God grants a creature free will the creature itself is responsible for its actions, not God, and the actions do not come about by way of necessity.

 

[David's Harp]

Now I could posit an answer to this question which might be of interest to @Ken-1122, or of interest to no one.

Genesis and the bible describes the evolution of man from creation to its ultimate destiny. Within that destiny there are two distinct paths which begin with the attainment of reason, (the knowledge of good and evil), and end in either what the bible describes as heaven, or what it describes as hell.

Suffering is simply the price that that journey inevitably exacts.

Now could God have created man without our having to suffer...no. God created man, and man in that journey from self-awareness to destiny created suffering.

You know, if you keep talking like that you might become a Christian.
After all, why would you choose suffering? Or is that never ending rabbit hole of knowledge worth it? Will you live forever?

 

[partinobodycular]

You know, if you keep talking like that you might become a Christian.

Well I guess there's always hope.

After all, why would you choose suffering?

One would choose suffering if the reward was worth the cost. So the question is, what did Adam gain in acquiring the knowledge of good and evil, or was that enough? Would I have made the same choice?

Many people seem to want to blame Adam for the suffering that humanity has had to endure, but maybe we shouldn't blame him, maybe we should thank him.

Or is that never ending rabbit hole of knowledge worth it?

I guess if we're lucky we'll find out.

Will you live forever?

I don't know if I will, but I hope the curiosity does. If so, then I guess I'll have to leave it to some future version of me to decide if the reward was worth the cost. I hope so.

 

[timothyu]

Surely you're not suggesting that because God has free will He must also have the desire to sin.

Sin , including the original sin was/is putting our will ahead of the will of God. So God put His will ahead of His will?

 

[Larniavc]

AND He suffered! You should think about this. Why would God Himself choose to suffer!

Good question. His suffering was unnecessary.

 

[Larniavc]

Yes, but one needs to understand these things in the context of a loving parent, not in the context of a vindictive overlord.

How do you tell the difference?

 

[timothyu]

His suffering was unnecessary.

Not really. It contrasted the Kingdom with the world of man and showed us for who we really are... self absorbed.

 

[Mink61]

Good question. His suffering was unnecessary.

How do you know that?

Do you possess ALL of God's knowledge to determine whether or not that suffering was necessary?

 

[Ken-1122]

Ummm, I've got a brain and a nonconformist attitude, so I'm gonna assume that the story of Adam and Eve is metaphorical. Now if you wanna assume that the story of Adam and Eve is historical fact then awesome, go right ahead. But somehow I think that you don't really believe that.

When I speak of religion, I often speak in the context of what the person I am discussing with believes, not what I believe. According to Matthew 19:4-5 Jesus made it clear he believed Adam and Eve were the first actual people.

 

[Ken-1122]

If God created us without the desire to sin, he'd be creating us without free will.

Are you suggesting Jesus nor God the father had free will since neither of them had a desire to sin?

Free will is about having the ability to choose. In order to choose, we need more than one possibility to choose from.

Just because you do not choose to do wrong does not mean you don't have countless other neutral or even good choices to chooser from.