Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

[trophy33]

Revelations 21:4 describes Heaven as a place with no more suffering. Do you disagree with what the Bible says about Heaven?

Rev 21:4 is about spiritual Jerusalem that symbolizes the kingdom of God. Its not about heaven. You are mistaken by Rev 21:1 that speaks about new heaven and new earth.

Then why did you make the claim if you do not know?

What claim do you have in mind? I know the best world must include some suffering. I do not know why the best world must include suffering. God knows.

 

[Larniavc]

There was only Israel, with symbolism, temple, perpetual sacrifices...It was a physical preparation for the coming of Christ and for His kingdom.

When the kingdom of God came, it has become spiritual and for all nations. Salvation by faith, the forgiveness of sins, new hearts, new ideas, new covenant, transformation of society etc.
Some profound changes happened also in spiritual realms, according to the Bible. Which can, I guess, be even more significant for the creation, than visible changes on our planet.

So why did nothing happen for all those years before the Kingdom of God came? Was God okay with all that Judaism but then decided to change it?

 

[trophy33]

So why did nothing happen for all those years before the Kingdom of God came? Was God okay with all that Judaism but then decided to change it?

Not sure what you mean by "nothing".

There are many acts of God from the story of Abraham through Moses to David to eschatological prophets preparing the way for Christ, in the Bible. Also, the pagan nations became prepared by various philosophers.

Judaism was preparation for the universal kingdom of God. After it came, Israel was judged for its evils, the temple destroyed, satan judged and thrown from heaven. And Christianity has begun to grow and to change the world "as a yeast in the dough".

 

[Larniavc]

Judaism was preparation for the universal kingdom of God.

Why did God need to prepare? He can make anything happen instantly.

 

[trophy33]

Why did God need to prepare? He can make anything happen instantly.

Because God created the universe that is based on processes and changes made step by step.

BTW, God was not preparing Himself. He was preparing the universe for the change. God is immutable and never changes.

 

[Larniavc]

Because God created the universe that is based on processes and changes made step by step.

I guess that fits with evolution. But then we why did he have to use the Noachian Flood if he favours stepwise change?

 

[TedT]

Seriously makes you wonder why God would bother to create something that is not suited to his tasks.

Yes, though I take this to mean that such thoughts are a misunderstanding of HIS method, not a criticism of them...

I have come to realize that the fact that since the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage it implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...

This implies that GOD would never not save anyone who could be saved to become HIS Bride, not for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would ever be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path, existence.

It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride without further intervention by HIM.

By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create evil people by any means, any system at all? It is impossible. GOD's purpose has no place in it for the supposed creation of mankind in Adamic sin.

 

[trophy33]

I guess that fits with evolution. But then we why did he have to use the Noachian Flood if he favours stepwise change?

It was a judgement (of the Mesopotamia).

Bible also implies some spiritual supernatural involvement (fallen angels with women) in the Mesopotamian society.

 

[TedT]

There is more suffering than related to free will. For example physical pain when injured (which is needed to preserve our bodies).

Free will as such is not a good explanation for the existence of suffering or evils. It may be an explanation for the specific suffering of punishment (for sins).

Do the holy elect angels feel suffering? PHysical pain? The guilt of choosing evil? Not at all. Unless GOD created the rest of us as sinners, the only way we earn the wages of sin, ie suffering and death, is by our free will choice to sin, to rebel against YHWH's deity or against HIS commands while accepting HIS deity.

Since I contend that GOD will not create evil then the only way to account for evil is by our free will - sinfulness proves our free will.

Light cannot create darkness.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.

 

[trophy33]

Do the holy elect angels feel suffering?

I do not know.

PHysical pain?

No, they do not have physical bodies. We do, though. Not sure how it works when they create the physical bodies for themselves, as mentioned few times in the Bible. Maybe they are able to suffer physical pain, while being in that state.

The guilt of choosing evil?

I have no idea why would spiritual beings be unable to feel the guilt. Its not a physical property.

Or do you want to say angels never make any mistake/never do wrong?

 

[TedT]

Not so. God is all.
We (as extensions of God)

Let me see if I can find it... ah, yes, there it is: post #92

God is all. There is nothing that is not God. The great "I am" doesn't have any "I am not" to identify itself... yet it does.

This "we are God in essence" is the pov of Gnosticism, Eastern mysticism and pagan mysticism...it is not ordinary Christian doctrine.

Aside:
As Calvinism accepts that the sovereignty of GOD supports HIS creation of evil rather than supporting HIS loving, righteous and just nature in repudiating all evil, they too have fallen into the trap of mysticism.

 

[TedT]

Ah, so there are somethings in reality that God did not create?

YES!

HE did NOT create, bring into existence, the reality of evil though HE did create the possibility of evil by giving HIS creation free will!

 

[TedT]

So God punishes the non perfect? How is that fair? What is an innocent person? Name an innocent person. Or type of person.

GOD punishes the non-perfect because they destroyed their created perfection by their repudiation of the definition of perfection and the other definitions of reality from YHWH's pov.

They repudiated HIM as a liar and a false god by faith, that is, by an unproven hope that they were not making a mistake with eternal consequences.

Since a true free will decision must be based upon a full knowledge of the possible consequences for choosing every (each) option or it is just a guess about what you want, ie, not a real choice, when GOD declared HIS divinity and HIS purpose in our creation, HE must have included warnings about the legal and natural consequences for rejecting or accepting HIM and/or HIS purpose.

Not only did those who would become the Satanic, choose to repudiate HIS claims as the lies of a fase god, they did so knowing that if He were ever to prove HE was indeed our creator GOD they were doomed to hell, that is, they chose to rather go to hell than ever worship HIM or marry HIM. So confident were they in their decision to believe HE was not GOD that they scorned those others who accepted HIS deity by faith, their unproven hope HE was telling the the truth, to receive HIS promise of election so they could go their own way against GOD without fear of hell.

Thus by repudiating the well spring of all goodness as evil and forbidding HIM to interfere with their decisions, they self created themselves as eternally evil, their perfection eternally coprrupted, and therefore they became subject to the demands of justice. With total fairness.

What is an innocent person? Name an innocent person. Or type of person.

ImCo,
An innocent is a person who has not yet made a free will moral choice which would define their self chosen state in GOD's eyes as good or bad, righteous or evil, faithful or as a never believer, condemned already, Jn 3:18.

Since the whole of creation has either put their faith in YHWH as GOD accepting HIS proposal of marriage or repudiated HIM as a lair and a false god driven by an evil psychotic megalomania, there are no innocents any more. Before this choice was made, every person created in HIS image was innocent.

 

[TedT]

I thought that the thing about angels was that they lacked free will? Why didn’t God just destroy him there and then?

The fact that some angels became evil is proof that they had a free will because they could only become evil by their own will, not GOD's will.

I've heard of this foolishness that angels are robots without will but...sigh.

To fill this idea out:
ANGELS ARE PEOPLE, PERSONS because Angels have free will:

1. Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven. When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

2. Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. implying the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD...angel being a job description, NOT a race or type of being.

3. Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's damnation is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

4. Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

5. Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image. When did they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood, that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven if they should ever become corrupted.

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some angels and the fall of others, the Satanic demons, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some staying holy and Satan and his crew choosing that which made them forever evil in HIS sight.

 

[timothyu]

Except of course when something is its own opposite, right?

Not except of course.. already said creation is dual in nature out of necessity. opposing things are but part of a whole. One cannot exist without the other just as existence cannot exist without non-existence.

 

[timothyu]

.it is not ordinary Christian doctrine.

Yet Jesus said to be one with God.

 

[TedT]

ot sure what you mean by hell, in this context. Hádés? Seol? The lake of fire?

Though hell historically refers to Sheol or Hades as the place for the dead waiting for judgement, hell has recently come to refer to the outer darkness, the final place of existence of the damned outside of this reality. Though I personally use it to refer to either, I tend to use it to refer to the outer darkness and refer to the place of the waiting dead as Sheol.

 

[TedT]

If they were born perfect why would they need salvation.

You seem to ignore all references to their choosing to be evil in HIS sight by their free will, corrupting their perfection which is my thesis from the beginning and in (or behind) every post.

 

[Larniavc]

Because God created the universe that is based on processes and changes made step by step.

BTW, God was not preparing Himself. He was preparing the universe for the change. God is immutable and never changes.

Apart from all those Rabbinical rules, his stance on incest and child killing between the OT and the NT. And about the appropriateness of using extinction level events to fix things.

Aside from that God never changes.

 

[Larniavc]

Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

Apart from sin, obviously. Unless you are saying he planned sin from the very beginning?