Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

[Larniavc]

He created himself as evil by his own will, his own decision to reject YHWH's definitions of reality for his own definition which led him to rebuke YHWH as a liar and therefore a false god driven by an evil megalomania, the sin he could never return from nor repent of choosing.

I thought that the thing about angels was that they lacked free will? Why didn’t God just destroy him there and then?

 

[Larniavc]

I do not have enough information to provide a definition. Bible describes it in images and natural philosophy does not have much to say about life in higher dimensions.

So for all we know it could be awful but just have good press?

 

[Larniavc]

It is a privilege to suffer as He suffered, because we know that He suffered more.

Not really. He was in complete control of all the events and would never have suffers so much that he would have ceased to exist.

Dying isn’t that impressive when it has no lasting effects.

 

[trophy33]

So for all we know it could be awful but just have good press?

No. For all we know it will be much better than this planet, but specifics are not describable in our language.

Bible implies that evil/suffering is concentrated around our planet. On the other hand, it also describes at least one war in heaven.

 

[Larniavc]

No.

I am saying that the creation as a whole had to have some suffering to be the best one. It does not mean that every part of this creation must have suffering.

Like some picture must contain black color to look best, but it does not mean that the black color must be in all parts of the picture. Heavens being one of the parts that can be without suffering.

So far, we know only about our planet to have some amount of suffering, in the whole vast physical universe. Its less than a dot.

So you could say that Heaven can only exist and function if the suffering is siloed in Hell?

 

[trophy33]

So you could say that Heaven can only exist and function if the suffering is siloed in Hell?

Not sure what you mean by hell, in this context. Hádés? Seol? The lake of fire?

In any case, I do not know if there is a direct connection between the existence or between the quality of existence of those two.

 

[Larniavc]

ImCo, when GOD created everyone in HIS image with a free will, it was possible that everyone created would choose to accept HIS proclamation of HIS deity and as the only salvation from sin,

If they were born perfect why would they need salvation.

 

[Larniavc]

Not sure what you mean by hell, in this context.

In any case, I do not know if there is a direct connection between the existence of those two.

Hell as in where all the sinners, dogs and wizards go: the lake of fire. Eternal torment set up by God to punish people he deems sinners.

 

[trophy33]

Hell as in where all the sinners, dogs and wizards go: the lake of fire. Eternal torment set up by God to punish people he deems sinners.

I personally do not believe in literal eternal torment, I think its imagery (as dogs are). So I cannot answer.

 

[David's Harp]

Not really. He was in complete control of all the events and would never have suffers so much that he would have ceased to exist.

Dying isn’t that impressive when it has no lasting effects.

He did die. And was resurrected 3 days later. This is the good news!

 

[trophy33]

He did die. And was resurrected 3 days later. This is the good news!

I guess the point was that Jesus, being God and coming from heaven, knew much more about the afterlife and the future than an average Joe, so His fear of physical death was lesser.

On the other hand, we can say the opposite, that it was bigger. We cannot really judge what God felt before His physical and psychological torture by His own creation and before death, in which the sins of the world were put on Him. It was quite a unique experience.

The sweat of blood during praying in Gethsemane supports the latter.

 

[Larniavc]

He did die. And was resurrected 3 days later. This is the good news!

I’ve never understood why that is ‘the good news’.

Immortal, omnipotent deity kills self then then resurrects self.

What exactly is the good news?

 

[Freodin]

I think I'll leave it at that. It was interesting, once more.

For those who care about these kinds of things: I have been a member on this board for over twenty years now. (I missed my anniversary in March, but I don't really care about these kinds of things).

I was an atheist when I came here, based on my prior experiences and my own thoughts. The world was different back then... the internet was young and the idea of talking directly and instantaneously to people from all over the world, of all ages, languages, cultures and religions was not very common.

I was interested to see what Christians thought about various ideas. Ideas that I personally held or ideas that I questioned.
I have learned a lot in these twenty years. But nothing I learned has made me consider Christianity or religion more than I started out with. Quite the contrary: in all my conversations, with all the different people, the nice ones and the... less nice ones, I only found confirmation of my own beliefs.

This hasn't changed.

People might have noticed that the views presented here in this thread differ widely. Contradict each other. Sometimes even contradict themselves. The views presented by the Christians, I must emphasize.

I don't mind. Twenty years. I know what to expect by now.

But still, there's always something to learn.

You guys haven't really taken the track, that the OP intended: the point is that there is something we can do about suffering.

Humbling yourself, that you suffer less, is the will of God.

And God has the same choice, if what He is creating causes Him to suffer, He can not be "God".

Gottservant is... an interesting character. He's not easy to communicate with. His posts are often very difficult to decipher, his thoughts tend to rambling, his conversation skills with others are not very good.
It can be frustrating to deal with him.

But he is the only proclaimed Christian here in this discussion who tried to make the point "that there is something we can do about suffering.

I might disagree with his approach. I might disagree with his answers. But at least he has something that I do consider valuable in a human: compassion.

I leave it at that. It was interesting once more. After twenty years, I don't participate here as much as I once did. But I'll be around.

 

[David's Harp]

I guess the point was that Jesus, being God and coming from heaven, knew much more about the afterlife and the future than an average Joe, so His fear of physical death was lesser.

On the other hand, we can say the opposite, that it was bigger. We cannot really judge what God felt before His physical and psychological torture by His own creation and before death, in which the sins of the world were put on Him. It was quite a unique experience.

The sweat of blood during praying in Gethsemane supports the latter.

It wasn't about His fear of physical death. It was about His suffering, and how He took all that upon Himself as a sacrifice for humanity. One who had did no wrong paid the price for all.

O Father. Your sacrifice, your sacrifice, your sacrifice! You became as nought, so that we might live in the resurrection of Jesus as new creations.

 

[David's Harp]

I only found confirmation of my own beliefs.

Because you never opened your heart, and sincerely asked in humility to know Him.

 

[trophy33]

I’ve never understood why that is ‘the good news’.

Immortal, omnipotent deity kills self then then resurrects self.

What exactly is the good news?

Technically speaking, the good news is the message that the kingdom of God has come (to Earth). The resurrection of Christ is very important part of this coming, thats why it sometimes gets conjugated.

 

[Freodin]

Because you never opened your heart, and sincerely asked in humility to know Him.

Hi Harp.
Twenty years. A bit than less than half of my life, and I haven't started to engage in this topic with my registration at CF. So, let's be generous and add another 20 years to it... I always had a faible for philosophy.

You don't know me. Even if you went through all my posts I ever made here, you wouldn't know half of me. You don't know what I did or did not do. You are only able to use the same backward reasoning that I criticize in this thread. Which again only confirms my beliefs.

I don't mind. Twenty years. I have heard it all. I have been called spawn of Satan for daring to even be here, by Christians. I have been lauded for my insight and "Christian" love, by Christians.

I'm not offended. I'm not insulted. I just find it interesting to see just what kind of approach people chose when they address an unbeliever for the first time.

Stay well!

 

[Larniavc]

Technically speaking, the good news is the message that the kingdom of God has come (to Earth).

I’ve never understood that. Wasn’t the Kingdom of God always there? What’s the significance?

 

[Ken-1122]

Because they are different "places", different states of being, with different purposes. Also, I do not know much about heaven to claim what it has or has not. Bible says that angels in heaven rebelled, so they are not all just dancing and singing or whatever some naive idea of it may be.

Revelations 21:4 describes Heaven as a place with no more suffering. Do you disagree with what the Bible says about Heaven?

I do not know. I would need to see and compare all possible universes with all their eternity to each other to know .

Then why did you make the claim if you do not know?

 

[trophy33]

I’ve never understood that. Wasn’t the Kingdom of God always there? What’s the significance?

There was only Israel, with symbolism, temple, perpetual sacrifices...It was a physical preparation for the coming of Christ and for His kingdom.

When the kingdom of God came, it has become spiritual and for all nations. Salvation by faith, the forgiveness of sins, new hearts, new ideas, new covenant, transformation of society etc.
Some profound changes happened also in spiritual realms, according to the Bible. Which can, I guess, be even more significant for the creation, than visible changes on our planet.