Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

[Campos]

The Devil is the angel Lucifer who fell from heaven. God created lucifer, however, he did not create the evil that consumed Lucifer that turned him into the Devil.

Who did create the Devil then?

 

[Campos]

God didn't create the Angels? If not, who created them then?

God created the angels, but not the evil that consumed the fallen ones, including Lucifer.

Luke 10:18

2 Peter 2:4
Matthew 25:41

 

[Campos]

I don't know how to delete posts, so this post doesn't matter

 

[Campos]

What is your definition of Heaven if mine is too vague?

Luke 13

 

[TedT]

Does not make sense. If you say that anything God does is good you must also maintain that suffering is good and that people suffering is good.

Of course the suffering of HIS sinful children is good.

Breaking the command of GOD proves to us our sinfulness but it is the curse of suffering that sanctifies us so we don't choose sin again.

Read Heb 12:5-11 again.
5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE (the chastening) OF THE LORD,
NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”

7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but painful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

In essence this tells us that GOD chastises us to train us in righteousness and though it is painful, it is good for us, proving we are HIS children, not illegitimate as we find in Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation. where the sins of some have removed them from HIS loving kindness as unforgivable.

Verse 6 even uses the word S3146. mastigoó: to scourge
Usage: to flog with the cat of nine tails, to scourge, the victim being strapped to a pole or frame; metaphor for harsh chastisement.

Verse 11 No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful... uses for the word painful, S3077, lupé: pain of body or mind, grief, sorrow. If this does not conform to our word suffering, what does?

But make no mistake: suffering in itself has no intrinsic value for those who are not sinners, that is, no innocent person suffers for any reason of benefit.

 

[TedT]

Who did create the Devil then?

He created himself as evil by his own will, his own decision to reject YHWH's definitions of reality for his own definition which led him to rebuke YHWH as a liar and therefore a false god driven by an evil megalomania, the sin he could never return from nor repent of choosing.

 

[trophy33]

What is your definition of Heaven if mine is too vague?

I do not have enough information to provide a definition. Bible describes it in images and natural philosophy does not have much to say about life in higher dimensions.

 

[trophy33]

So will there be suffering in Heaven when you get there? But I thought Heaven was supposed to be the perfect place! How can it be perfect when there are those suffering there?

Heaven will be too different from our current life to discuss it.

As I have no idea what life as a cell is like, I have no idea what life without body is like. I understand Bible says its much better than this life, but not sure what you mean by "perfect".

 

[trophy33]

So does evolution have free will?
Of course not. Yet it decides who lives and who dies.

Evolution does not "decide". Its not a person.

 

[atpollard]

I don't know how to delete posts, so this post doesn't matter

You can edit it to just have an emoji.

Some are quite amusing ...

 

[Ken-1122]

God created the angels, but not the evil that consumed the fallen ones, including Lucifer.

Luke 10:18

2 Peter 2:4
Matthew 25:41

Okay; that sounds a bit different. At first I thought you said Lucifer was an angel and God did not create Lucifer. So now you're saying God did not create evil? But evil doesn't have an actual existence; it's just a judgment we make on actions we witness, but evil no more exists than beautiful, funny, or silly exists.

 

[Ken-1122]

Heaven will be too different from our current life to discuss it.

As I have no idea what life as a cell is like, I have no idea what life without body is like. I understand Bible says its much better than this life, but not sure what you mean by "perfect".

You said something to the effect that if there is no suffering, creation cannot be at it's best. That would mean; body or no body, Heaven cannot be it's best if there is no suffering.

 

[David's Harp]

Wow! Reading through this thread I can only imagine God laughing at some of what is trying to convey itself at wise, informed and rational thought. How can you know the mind of God? It would be like the ant trying to fathom the human.

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God." (1 Corinthians 3:19)

If you really want to know God - and all that you're really going to be able to understand about Him in this life - then you must look to Jesus, and the example and the sacrifice He gave.
It is a privilege to suffer as He suffered, because we know that He suffered more. God Himself took the full weight of all our suffering and banished them on that cross! Hallelujah! When you really ponder this, and get a conviction of it, it's mind-blowing.

@myst33 Gotta hand it to you, you've done well here in defense of the Faith against some rather cynical comments. Kudos to you!

We'll never win against the proud nature and the wisdom of the worldly. But thanks be to God, for He has overcome this world through Jesus and makes sure to gather unto Himself the remainder of the lost sheep who hear his voice and love Him. Amen.

 

[trophy33]

You said something to the effect that if there is no suffering, creation cannot be at it's best. That would mean; body or no body, Heaven cannot be it's best if there is no suffering.

When I say "creation", I mean the creation as a whole system. I do not mean that every part of the creation will have to have suffering.

Like some picture has to have some black color to look best, but the black color does not have to be everywhere on the picture.

 

[Freodin]

When I say "creation", I mean the creation as a whole system. I do not mean that every part of the creation will have to have suffering.

Like some picture has to have some black color to look best, but the black color does not have to be everywhere on the picture.

That is in fact a very good analogy.

But it still fails. Because this method of creating pictures is not necessary. And, pictures as a whole are not necessary.

 

[Ken-1122]

When I say "creation", I mean the creation as a whole system. I do not mean that every part of the creation will have to have suffering.

So are you saying some parts of Heaven will have suffering, other parts will not?

 

[trophy33]

So are you saying some parts of Heaven will have suffering, other parts will not?

No.

I am saying that the creation as a whole had to have some suffering to be the best one. It does not mean that every part of this creation must have suffering.

Like some picture must contain black color to look best, but it does not mean that the black color must be in all parts of the picture. Heavens being one of the parts that can be without suffering.

So far, we know only about our planet to have some amount of suffering, in the whole vast physical universe. Its less than a dot.

 

[rlp21858]

the Bible says we're appointed to suffer. but instead of focusing on other people's suffering, i think it's better to focus on whether we are enduring our own suffering. for example, i think much of the suffering in the world is supposed to be solved by people, but since many people arent doing their part to help others, the suffering continues. however, i think many of those who could cause the most good arent helping because their minds and hearts are in the wrong place, and this is something that the typical Christian can help with (leading by example, sharing our beliefs, etc). but it often takes spiritual maturity to deal with people the right way: in meekness, gentleness, and obedience and not in pride. whatever contribution we can make we make best when we're following after humility, and this i believe we learn through suffering. if everyone did this, it makes sense that this could have a huge impact.

i made a write-up about Christian suffering that may help in case it's still a difficult topic for anyone:

A Believer's Thoughts on Christian Suffering

if anyone believes this is true and believes others should know about it, please tell someone.

 

[partinobodycular]

Or you can edit it to nothing.

 

[partinobodycular]

Evolution does not "decide". Its not a person.

And by your own definition of God, He doesn't decide either. Evolution has no "choice" in what it creates, but then again neither does God.

Unfortunately you're making the same mistake that Christians constantly accuse non-Christians of making, you're viewing God's actions from a human perspective, and then attributing to them a choice where none actually exists. In fact to assume that God must choose one thing over another is to assign human limitations to God.

You're also assuming that because this world includes suffering that a world that includes suffering must be better than a world that doesn't include suffering. That's just patently false. Once again you're using your limited human perspective to arrive at an erroneous conclusion.