Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

[Larniavc]

Define free will, suffering and heaven.

Free will as humans know it on Earth. The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Suffering from a human perspective is the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.

Christian heaven is the location of the throne of God and the angels of God and is the abode of the righteous dead in the afterlife.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your. Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Can we move along?

 

[Moral Orel]

No, your use of language is not fine, because you end with stronger terms than you start with.

"God cannot choose a bad universe, therefore He can either choose the best universe or no universe" is a correct level of reasoning.

No, you're just changing what A and B are.

Now A is "do create a universe" and B is "do not create a universe". One of these is the perfect choice, and God must make that choice. A and B can't both be the correct choice, they are mutually exclusive.

After God chooses to create the universe, He must create it in a specific manner.
After the universe is created, He must choose to act within that universe in a specific manner.

 

[trophy33]

No, you're just changing what A and B are.

Now A is "do create a universe" and B is "do not create a universe". One of these is the perfect choice, and God must make that choice. A and B can't both be the correct choice, they are mutually exclusive.

After God chooses to create the universe, He must create it in a specific manner.
After the universe is created, He must choose to act within that universe in a specific manner.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[trophy33]

Free will as humans know it on Earth. The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
Suffering from a human perspective is the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship.

Christian heaven is the location of the throne of God and the angels of God and is the abode of the righteous dead in the afterlife.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your. Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Can we move along?

Heaven will be without physical pain, because we will have spiritual bodies. Not sure about other hardships, I have no idea what hardships spiritual beings have in spiritual realms.

We will still be limited, so we will still make errors like angels do.

Your vague definition of heaven does not allow to answer in more detail.

 

[Freodin]

Even then, it should be easy to spot the problem.

God has free will. We have free will. That is "perfect" and what God wants to have.

God always choses right, by using his free will. We don't always chosing right, by using our free will.

So either the "free will" is not the problem here, being the same... or it is NOT the same, and bringing it up is useless.

 

[Freodin]

Heaven will be without physical pain, because we will have spiritual bodies. Not sure about other hardships, I have no idea what hardships spiritual beings have in spiritual realms.

We will be still limited, so we will still make errors like angels do.

Your vague definition of heaven does not allow to answer in more detail.

So, "physical pain" is unnecessary, because our existence is perfectly possible with "spiritual bodies".

 

[trophy33]

So, "physical pain" is unnecessary, because our existence is perfectly possible with "spiritual bodies".

Physical pain is necessary for physical bodies we are in, currently. Why it was necessary to have physical 3D realm as a part of the creation, I do not know.

 

[Freodin]

Physical pain is necessary for physical bodies we are in, currently. Why it was necessary to have physical 3D realm as a part of the creation, I do not know.

Perhaps, if you step back a bit for just a second, you might be able to see the problem that we have with such a statement.

You say that it is necessary. You don't know why it is necessary. You cannot explain why it is necessary. You just know that it is... because it exists.

That is what I called "backwards reasoning", and Larnievc called "putting the cart before the horse": you declare something "necessary" because it exists.
That goes against the philosophical system that is used to start the argument in the first place: that there is a difference between "necessary" and "contingent" existence.
The idea behind it is that something that can as well exist as not exist is "contingent", something that must exist is "necessary". But you have to point out where this difference is.
If you declare something "contingent", you have to explain how it would be possible for it not to exist.
But in the same way, if you declare something "necessary", you have to explain how it is IMpossible for it not to exist.

Simply attaching the label without such an explanation is invalid use of that reasoning. It reduces it to an exchange of "Is! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!"

That's not very convincing. And before you go the route that timothyu used, that you are not "interesting in convincing anyone"... consider that your faith also states that "unbelievers are without excuse".

And I dare say: "I haven't heard anything that convinced me" is a very good excuse not to accept your claims.

 

[Larniavc]

Heaven will be without physical pain, because we will have spiritual bodies. Not sure about other hardships, I have no idea what hardships spiritual beings have in spiritual realms.

We will still be limited, so we will still make errors like angels do.

Your vague definition of heaven does not allow to answer in more detail.

What is your definition of Heaven if mine is too vague?

 

[Campos]

Who God chose to create knowing full well what effect his decision to make a being like the Devil.

God did not create the Devil. The Devil was an angel named Lucifer who fell down from the heavens.

 

[Ken-1122]

The general answer is quite simple - because the suffering is needed for the best of the creation as a whole.
If God took some of it away, the creation as a whole would not be the best.

Its the emotional side of things that makes it difficult for us to accept the necessity of it.

So will there be suffering in Heaven when you get there? But I thought Heaven was supposed to be the perfect place! How can it be perfect when there are those suffering there?

 

[Ken-1122]

Hello,

There are so many ways to answer that God does everything He can to avoid or abate suffering, that it can seem like no one has a definitive answer. However, we can start to understand that God is in the midst of suffering. For example, that God is able to distract us from suffering. The point is not that God distracts all suffering, where-ever it occurs. But that God shares the burden of suffering, with those that have faith in Him.

This bearing our burdens, as Christ did (watching the Father), is something you can fight or go with. There is wisdom in this, as suffering teaches us to develop character. If we didn't ever suffer, there would be no difference between Heaven and Hell. What we know, is that we can be distracted in degrees. Less suffering, is partly a choice. Partly a commitment, but partly a choice. If we have the opportunity to learn this, our suffering will always be less. This is the promise of God.

What we need to learn, in the process of (mentally) processing this, is that the burden we place on God, directly affects our ability to deal with the suffering that is inevitable. Even if we stayed our entire lives in Heaven, simply leaving Heaven, would be Hell. God's promise is not that we will stay for ever in Heaven, but that we will be able to endure what we suffer because of Hell, whether by someone else's actions or our own. And this is the kicker, we can even avoid suffering while we are suffering.

Avoiding suffering while we are suffering, allows us to be distracted from our suffering, especially suffering we can do nothing about. This is the principle:It is in effect, being forgiving of what God can do in this life, for the sake of the next. If God suffers, surely suffering has come to an end - for those that have faith in God's suffering. It might be hard to have faith that suffering will come to an end - that is the price of innocence, in one sense - but if we have simpler standards, as to what we will expect from God - in the face of that suffering - we will be going a great long way to ending the suffering that is needless (that is, if you can understand it: an ignorance of God).

God will be there with you in the suffering, but don't wait for your expectations of God, to define your response to His love - whether you are suffering a little or a lot, humility (that God continues to have a plan, for your life) will go a long way to preventing you from adding to that suffering needlessly: that is, asking for a more perfect solution to your suffering than He is able, all His efforts not withstanding, to give you. God wants to give you an end to suffering, but that doesn't mean He can immediately get it to you - be humble about what He can give you, and you will suffer less.

I hope we can understand this, in a bond of fellowship.
I am not trying to diminish anyone's suffering (that is up to God, ultimately).

God bless.

This looks like an awful lot of hoops you are jumping through in order to justify this idea that the God you speak of is perfect, and good, while recognizing his creation is imperfect and not good. I find the most logical explanation to be that the God you speak of is not responsible for suffering because he does not exist.

 

[Ken-1122]

God did not create the Devil. The Devil was an angel named Lucifer who fell down from the heavens.

God didn't create the Angels? If not, who created them then?

 

[Larniavc]

God did not create the Devil. The Devil was an angel named Lucifer who fell down from the heavens.

Who did create the Devil then?

 

[partinobodycular]

Depends on the definition of free will, as always.

So does evolution have free will?

Of course not. Yet it decides who lives and who dies. It can wipe entire species off the face of the earth, or bring them into existence. And its decisions are perfect. It never ever makes a mistake. It allows just the right amount of suffering to achieve the perfect outcome.

Yet evolution no more possesses free will than God does. Just as evolution simply does what it must do, God does what He must do. No free will involved.

 

[TedT]

God doesn't have free will

Please consider that GOD does have a free will but HIS character, HIS nature, of being perfectly loving, righteous and just means that by HIS free will HE will never choose to do or to create any evil, ie, that which is not in accord with HIS character.

HS goodness is NOT a lack of ability but of choice.

 

[TedT]

All FREE means is uncoerced:

IF GOD set it up so HIS new creation had no coercion or constraints upon their choices, nothing forcing them to choose anything, they had free will.

The Elements of a True Free Will Choice:

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

Nothing in their experience could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all cultural or familial experience...

Nothing in their understanding or knowledge of reality could FORCE them to choose good or evil, love or hate.

In other words, they had to be completely and truly ingenuously innocent.

[Ref: definition of ingenuous: [URL="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ingenuousness"]ingenuousness[/URL] as: 1. Lacking in cunning, guile, worldliness; artless. 2. Openly straightforward or frank; candid; that is, following and choosing only what they think is the best for them and their future happiness.

2. Consequences must be known but not proved:
The person must understand the full consequences of their choice or it is a guess, not a true choice. “What will happen if I choose left or right, the red pill or the blue pill?” must be answered in full detail.

But "PROOF" of the nature of the consequence would compel or coerce the person to choose what was proven to be the best for them. If the answer “death here,” “life there,” was proven, which would you choose? The weight of knowledge would destroy the effect of a true ‘free will’ choice.

If it were proven you would die if you went left, are you truly free to choose to go right? No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right. Therefore they must know, but without proof, the nature of the consequences of their choice.

Only then are they following their desires, their deepest hope in the nature of reality, defining the reality they most hope to enjoy.

Peace, Ted

 

[Freodin]

Please consider that GOD does have a free will but HIS character, HIS nature, of being perfectly loving, righteous and just means that by HIS free will HE will never choose to do or to create any evil, ie, that which is not in accord with HIS character.

HS goodness is NOT a lack of ability but of choice.

Just so that I don't respond to something that you don't believe: could you please explain what "perfectly loving, righteous and just" are in this regard?

 

[Freodin]

1. Free will can't be coerced:
Nothing in their created nature could FORCE them to choose love or hate, good or evil, including all genetics...

There it is, written down in black and white: God does NOT have free will according to this definition.

And, no, it doesn't matter that you wrote "created nature" here, which God in your view doesn't have. It's not about what makes the definion different... it's just that the definition is different.

 

[Moral Orel]

No, you are forced by your knowledge to go right.

Then God doesn't have free will because He knows all. He is forced by His own knowledge and His own nature to act in the manner He does.