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Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Gottservant, Aug 6, 2022.

How less than perfect can God's answer to suffering be?

  1. It has to be perfect!

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. It's a matter of chance!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. It depends on what you've said!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. It depends on the Devil!

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. It depends on lots of things!

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  6. It doesn't matter.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. It matters a little bit.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. I wish it mattered less...

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  9. I'm thankful for whatever God can give (selah)

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    No. It isn't part of His "definition". It is the quality that is under scrutiny in this thread.

    I know folks like to say, "If God isn't good, then my God doesn't exist" but that's just a silly semantics game. If there is an omnipotent, omniscient deity that introduced Himself to Israel a few thousand years ago who goes by the name of Yahweh, then your God exists whether He's good or evil.
     
  2. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    When you get more into deeper theology about the highest substance (deeper than what is written about Israel), then you will see that His goodness is not under any scrutiny.

    If you are interested, I can recommend you some sources.
     
  3. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    It is under scrutiny whether you think it's been proved elsewhere or not.
     
  4. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    In Christianity, it is not under any scrutiny.

    And not just in Christianity, since Greece, any religion or philosophy that meditated about the nature of the highest substance, rejected any idea of imperfection.
     
  5. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    Of course it isn't under scrutiny by Christians. That doesn't mean everyone else has to assume all of your beliefs are true.

    The thread asks why there is suffering.
    You say that you don't know the reason but there must be a good reason because God is good.
    Okay, so prove God is good so that you can prove there's an unknown good reason for suffering.
     
  6. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    No one is good—except God alone.
    Lk 18:19

    ...then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
    R 12:2

    God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
    1J 1:5

    God cannot be tempted by evil
    Jm 1:13
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  7. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    How can a perfect thing (God) not make a universe without suffering except by choice?

    It’s been an interesting discussion but I think we have gone as far as we can.
     
  8. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    Which makes no sense at all.
     
  9. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    I for one have never done an actually evil thing and I have free will.
     
  10. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    But he can also bring good out of nothing. So why even bother with suffering?
     
  11. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    It is a choice. Its not a contradiction to say that God "chooses" the best, even though there is no time process of choosing we know as humans. In Him its all eternally present.
     
  12. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    That’s just more unsubstantiated claims that people only believe if they already believe in God.

    So it’s usefulness is not very high in this discussion.
     
  13. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    He chose the one he did for his reasons. This one includes suffering when he has the ability to exclude suffering and the universe function in the way he wants. The universe cannot function in a way that is not pleasing to him.
     
  14. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    The apostolic claims about God are consistent with natural philosophy. You can even see in their vocabulary that they were used to Greek concepts.

    Of course, they added Christian-specific theology.
     
  15. Larnievc

    Larnievc Well-Known Member

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    Can you state in your own words how this is so?
     
  16. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    If you check philosophy about God, you will not get something too different from the Christian concept of God.

    Christianity is a specialized subsection of it. Because it adds specific revealed truths to it, for example the deity of Christ, about salvation etc. But basic ideas are still the same and during the ages, Christianity absorbed many ideas of Platon, Aristotle or Stoicism. Many Christian theologians were/are educated in classical philosophy, too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  17. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    The Bible is the claim.
     
  18. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    And I do ten evil things a day by 6am, but I don't have free will. I'm just a clay pot.
     
  19. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Its a proof that in Christianity, the goodness of God is not under any scrutiny.

    If you want to discuss whether Christianity is true or not, some other thread would be more suitable, IMHO.
     
  20. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Wrong. Giving us a free will necessitates allowing us to choose evil if we should will to do so...creating the possibility (not a necessity) of someone choosing evil, beyond HIS control.

    Now there is another doctrine apart from free will that does intimate to some people that GOD could have created a world without evil but didn't...the doctrine of HIS omniscience.

    The current accepted definition of Christian omniscience that "GOD knows all that can be known from eternity past to eternity future." implies to them that HE knew before their creation who would sin and suffer or even sin to end in hell which they accept includes the future state of our sinfulness as able to be redeemed or as unforgivable.

    There are a number of verses that claim He does not desire anyone to end in hell nor does HE take pleasure in the eternal death (suffering) of the wicked which imply that all HE had to do to create a world with a free will but without sin and suffering or hell would have been to just not create those people HE knew would choose to sin...easy peasy. But since that is not what orthodoxy accepts to be true, ie, HE did create people who do suffer and some will end in hell, then Christian theology is in self conflict: the definition of omniscience, HIS abhorrence of evil and the reality of sin in this world.

    The resolution:
    We accept that HE knows all HIS works from the foundation of the world, Acts 15:18, in which it is accepted that all HIS works refers to that which all HIS decrees of creation created. Thus if HE did not decree something into creation, HE did not know it. This allows the definition of our free will decisions to be by our will, not HIS will, to include the idea that HE did not choose, HE did not create, the results of our free will choices. HE did not KNOW the result of our free will decisions until we chose them and brought them into existence, ie, created them ourselves.

    Against orthodoxy I contend HE did not decree, create, the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results were until we decided them for ourselves. This means that they are not in the category of all that can be known in the definition of omniscience but outside of it (as things which cannot be known to GOD) so the results of our free will decisions were unknown to GOD before our creation.

    Thus we can logically have a true free will inside of HIS omniscience yet end with temporary sinners suffering for sin and eternal sinners suffering eternally for their sinful choices.

    Since HE could not know the results of our free will choices because HE did not create them, for HIM to create us with a free will meant that the possibility of someone choosing to rebel against HIM (or even everyone in creation rebelling against HIM) was 100%, however probable or improbable. That is, there can be no free will with the impossibility of evil not being chosen even by an omniscient GOD as you suggest.

    HE cannot just NOT create those He knows will sin because He cannot know the results of our decisions before we choose them.

    As well,
    Possibility reduces necessary inevitability to the probable or the improbable.
     
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