Why does everyone hate Mary so much?

[Albion]

Asking someone to pray for you is praying to them and those Christians that went home are still very much alive

Still doesn't make the practice right to engage in.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

One not KNOWING if Mary is aware of our prayer requests and believing that Mary is unable to counsel and minister to us is NOT the same as specifically HATING her. My guess is you don't ask Mrs. Obama to pray for you, perhaps you don't even know how to contact her - but that per se does not document a HATRED for her. Make sense?





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[Thekla]

If Rachel was aware of the condition of her "children" after her death - and God answered the reposed/deceased Rachel's pleas - and the martyrs in Revelation know the conditions on earth, and our prayers are carried to the throne of God, why (given the testimony of Scripture, and of our Lord jesus Christ Himself) is it assumed that none of the deceased in Christ can know of what happens in the body of Christ ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

assumed

Ass-u-me is the best you've got? That and the ability to post questions?

Still.... it doesn't equate to HATE.




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[Paul of Eugene OR]

If Rachel was aware of the condition of her "children" after her death - and God answered the reposed/deceased Rachel's pleas - and the martyrs in Revelation know the conditions on earth, and our prayers are carried to the throne of God, why (given the testimony of Scripture, and of our Lord jesus Christ Himself) is it assumed that none of the deceased in Christ can know of what happens in the body of Christ ?

Ah, but why pick on poor Mary to bear the brunt of most of those prayers?

If she is finite instead of infinite, I don't think she could keep up with all the prayers addressed to her to relay.

 

[Thekla]

Ah, but why pick on poor Mary to bear the brunt of most of those prayers?

If she is finite instead of infinite, I don't think she could keep up with all the prayers addressed to her to relay.

Is there created time in
the spiritual realm ?

How does the person experience time after death ?

Is Christ timeless ?

Does the kingdom of Heaven have an "end" ?

 

[Thekla]

Ass-u-me is the best you've got? That and the ability to post questions?

Still.... it doesn't equate to HATE.




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I don't recall making the charge of hate ... but at any rate, that aspect of the discussion seems fairly well addressed, except for the potential misogynistic view associated with the term "vessel" for mother.

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't recall making the charge of hate ... but at any rate, that aspect of the discussion seems fairly well addressed, except for the potential misogynistic view associated with the term "vessel" for mother.

The "H" word is in the OP.
Thekla, you are both smart and tough, but very sweet. If I was Mary, I would enjoy hanging out with you.

I hear ya on the misogyny edge, but the obsessively, poetically, pious people who first employed it, were unconsciously so, and convinced of their own good intentions we well know.
I wonder if you have ever seen or heard anything about a relationship dynamic aspect in the Madonna and child image that warns us of the vulnerability of authority becoming infantile if in unbalance, becomes dominated by femininity?
Can't remember where I saw that... it's been a crazy week. This $60,000 machine at work I operate has been breaking down and I had to do over the phone coached high tech repairs on it. Replacing expensive chips, circuitboards, and cables is neither music or art. I got so stressed out I had to lay down because my eyes refused to focus for a couple of minutes. It suffered a voltage surge when I was gone to play on Fat Tuesday. We finally gave up and sent everything off to Denver where our tech wizard lives in his fortress. It got back today and I had it up and running for a few hours, but Stephen King-like things started happening and the boss finally had to get down on the ground with the volt meter and open the processor. I'm supposed to install a new keyboard tomorrow on it.
Pray for me, 'k?
Thanks, sis.

 

[Rhamiel]

Ah, but why pick on poor Mary to bear the brunt of most of those prayers?

If she is finite instead of infinite, I don't think she could keep up with all the prayers addressed to her to relay.

Elijah called down fire from heaven (2Kings 1:10)
and Jonah was in the belly of a great fish for days

it seems God allows those close to Him to do mighty things

 

[tadoflamb]

Oh dear. Am I embarrassed! I had thought that "behold" meant to look upon or, perhaps, to look upon upon with appreciation.

It does. Now go behold your mother and then tell her she's a bit player.

 

[tadoflamb]

Behold your mother...

He said that to John the Apostle... He also said of Mary... behold your son...

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. - John 19

From that day on... Mary was John's mother.

I suppose that would be one interpretation of that verse, locking the moment in time with no real implications for Christians today. But, for me, Jesus didn't give his Mother just to St. John but to all of us.

edited to add: Thank you Rockytopva for not mocking me for sharing of the Sacred Scriptures with you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ah, but why pick on poor Mary to bear the brunt of most of those prayers?

If she is finite instead of infinite, I don't think she could keep up with all the prayers addressed to her to relay.

Herein lies the rub. If a saint, according to RCC and EOC theology is able to simultaneously hear and answer every prayer addressed to them they would have to be omniscient and omnipresent which, of course, are attributes of God alone. If saints have these attributes they are demi-gods.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Is there created time in
the spiritual realm ?

How does the person experience time after death ?

Is Christ timeless ?

Does the kingdom of Heaven have an "end" ?

Do saints become demi-gods after death, becoming both omniscient and omnipresent?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Elijah called down fire from heaven (2Kings 1:10)
and Jonah was in the belly of a great fish for days

it seems God allows those close to Him to do mighty things

God does mighty things for His people and through His people, but the people themselves lack the innate ability to do these things.

 

[Albion]

But, for me, Jesus didn't give his Mother just to St. John but to all of us.

Private interpretation is the basis of "Sacred Tradition," but usually the people who are into it that sort of thing try at least to tie it to some passage in scripture. This is one case where there just isn't any.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Do saints become demi-gods after death, becoming both omniscient and omnipresent?

Either that or at the microsecond people exit Purgatory, their auditory sense is transubstantiated so that suddenly, they can ear all the prayers of all 7.2 billion people - even silent, unspoken ones. To date, no Catholic has been willing (able?) to show biologically exactly what happens as souls exit Purgatory that makes all this possible.

But yes, if they can ear us - it does require one of these two things: As souls exit Purgatory, they either become omniscient OR their auditory sense is entirely transformed via some biological transubstantiation. IMO, both are entirely, completely baseless.

And not accepting either of these possibilities, IMO, does not equal HATE for Mary (the issue of this thread).




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah



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[barryatlake]

I just could not resist this cut & paste.

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

 

[tadoflamb]

Friend, the words "Behold your mother" --- it's ALL right there, for heaven's sake, clear as a bell, obvious as the nose on your face, right there in phantom, invisible, non-existent words!!!!! Mary was a PERPETUAL virgin, Mary was conceived without original sin, Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven at the microsecond of her death (or was it undeath?) - it's ALL RIGHT THERE, right in front of you, clear as a bell, for all who can read invisible, phantom, nonexistent words!!

I'm glad you and your friends could have a good guffaw at my sharing in the Sacred Scriptures but unfortunately my response wasn't to address your laundry list of issues but simply one of your co-religious's simple questions:

Where... Where in scripture do we have commandment to pray or do homage to the Holy Mother Mary

Now, with such a sloppy reading of a post with 4 easy to understand words (three of which come from the bible) is it any wonder I can't consider anything you say with any amount of certainty?

 

[tadoflamb]

Private interpretation is the basis of "Sacred Tradition," but usually the people who are into it that sort of thing try at least to tie it to some passage in scripture. This is one case where there just isn't any.

As a sola scripturist, all you have to say is simply, "I don't see it".


It's a pretty cool trick.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I just could not resist this cut & paste.

1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ's work because we are God's "fellow workers" and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe "fellow workers" is "sunergoi," which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord "worked with them" ("sunergountos"). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 - God "works for good with" (the Greek is "sunergei eis agathon") those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 - "working together" (the Greek is "sunergountes") with him, don't accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ's work of redemption.

Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God's people.

James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.

1 Tim 2:5-6 - therefore, it is because Jesus Christ is the one mediator before God that we can be subordinate mediators. Jesus is the reason. The Catholic position thus gives Jesus the most glory. He does it all but loves us so much He desires our participation.

Why did you delete the Scriptures you referenced and replace it all with your personal, fallible, human opinions?


IMO, those who believe that gossip about Mary is to be avoided (perhaps even that such is wrong, perhaps even sinful), those who do not state AS DOGMA how often Mary and Joseph had relations (if at all), what happened to Mary's body at the microsecond of Her death (or was it undeath) or may perhaps be SILENT on all those issues, are NOT therefore, on that basis, because of that, documenting their HATRED for Mary. After all, Jesus never stated what happened to Mary's body or a thing about relations between Mary and Joseph (he was silent, as far as we know) so it just seems silly to me to insist ergo Jesus HATES Mary. I think the whole issue of this thread is absurd - and offensive - and divisive.... and thoughtless.


Sorry.


Pax


- Josiah




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