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Why do you feel a NEED for theistic evolution?

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Dorothy Mae

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Sure. If you would like to share, I'd listen.
Anything you want me to listen to or shall I give you a run down on typical sermons by immature believers?

Better do this privately so we don’t derail the thread.
 
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Job 33:6

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Anything you want me to listen to or shall I give you a run down on typical sermons by immature believers?

Better do this privately so we don’t derail the thread.

It sounded like you mentioned a speech by Francis Collins. I was just wondering what speech. And I think it's appropriate for the topic, given that he is a theistic evolutionist. Unless the speech didn't have anything to do with theistic evolution. In which case, I might not be interested if it was a speech on what he had for breakfast or what stores he likes to shop at.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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It sounded like you mentioned a speech by Francis Collins. I was just wondering what speech. And I think it's appropriate for the topic, given that he is a theistic evolutionist. Unless the speech didn't have anything to do with theistic evolution. In which case, I might not be interested if it was a speech on what he had for breakfast or what stores he likes to shop at.
Logical post. I’d have to think about the topic to see if I remember it, but I’ll tell you this, I don’t discern a man’s maturity in christ by how well he presents subjects having nothing to do with the Kingdom of God. I discern maturity by how well a man understands matters of the Kingdom.

To a man, all theistic evolutionists I’ve heard (without exception) and no bias, knew just about nothing of the Kingdom of God. They had experienced a change of heart as to the claims of Christ but one foot is clearly and firmly planted in the world. To maintain their status in the world they trash the character of God which doesn’t bother them at all.

So I didn’t hear Dr Collins talk
about TE. He was supposed to
give a talk on the Bible. It’s actually better for discernment to come at a matter sideways when the guard is down. The question as to whether a man is deceived or not is not to ask him about that which he is deceived but by matters that are clouded BY his being deceived.
 
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Job 33:6

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  1. Evidence of (very) recent geological activity (tectonic movements) on the moon is inconsistent with its supposed age of billions of years and its hot origin. Watters, T.R., et al., Evidence of Recent Thrust Faulting on the Moon Revealed by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera, Science 329(5994):936–940, 20 August 2010; DOI: 10.1126/science.1189590 (“This detection, coupled with the very young apparent age of the faults, suggests global late-stage contraction of the Moon.”) NASA pictures support biblical origin for Moon.

All of these recent posts with massive lists of alleged arguments are riddled with meaningless spam.

Quoted is one suggesting that because the moon has tectonic activity, it is therefore less than 10,000 years old, but this doesn't actually make any sense.

Tectonic activity in planets can last billions of years, as noted obviously on earth and Mars in particular has been in the spotlight as well. There is no reason to actually believe the above argument. It is simply baseless.
 
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Job 33:6

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  1. Volcanically active moons of Jupiter (Io) are consistent with youthfulness (Galileo mission recorded 80 active volcanoes). If Io had been erupting over 4.5 billion years at even 10% of its current rate, it would have erupted its entire mass 40 times. Io looks like a young moon and does not fit with the supposed billions of year’s age for the solar system. Gravitational tugging from Jupiter and other moons accounts for only some of the excess heat produced.

It would have erupted it's entire mass? Haha what? Lava doesn't just disappear after it erupts from a volcano. It gets recycled and re-erupted just as it does here on earth.

Let's see what other bizarre claims we can find in here.
 
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Job 33:6

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  1. Rate of erosion of continents vertically is not consistent with the assumed old age of the earth. See Creation 22(2):18–21.

Hahaha. Sure it is. To suggest that mountains are eroding too fast, and thus should no longer exist, doesn't make any sense. New mountains are building up all the time, such as the current day growth of the himilayas.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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Hahaha. Sure it is. To suggest that mountains are eroding too fast, and thus should no longer exist, doesn't make any sense. New mountains are building up all the time, such as the current day growth of the himilayas.

OK We will remove those 3 from the list just to please you..
Now you only have 98 to go!! You have work to do!!! LOL


There are several fundamental characteristics that identify a field of study as being "scientific".

Genuine science is objective and invites scrutiny and investigation. It does not ridicule the critics of its conclusions, but instead silences their criticisms by setting forth the evidence from which those conclusions are drawn.

Genuine science seeks the truth that explains the observed evidence. It does not prejudice the investigation by ruling out, from the start, hypotheses that may very well provide the best explanation for the observed evidence.

Genuine science rejects any hypothesis that consistently fails to fit observed scientific evidence. It does not persistently assume that the fault lies in the evidence rather than in the hypothesis itself.

On all three counts, the commonly-accepted "Theory of Evolution" fails the test of being scientific. With the passing years, proponents of this failed theory are behaving more and more like religious dogmatists in their unwillingness to submit the foundations of their theory to open inquiry and discussion. Instead, they heap scorn and ridicule on their critics, insisting that anyone who has the audacity to question the truth of their sacred theory must be either stupid, insane or evil.

At the heart of the problem is the fact that Evolution, disguised as a viable scientific theory, is actually a tool of religious propaganda and cultural domination, used by those who hold to the religion of Naturalism. Naturalism is the belief that all things, including the origin of life, can be explained purely in terms of natural phenomena, without the intervention of a supernatural being or deity. Ironically, many of the dogmatic proponents of Evolution may not even be aware that this is the religion they hold. Most seem unable to distinguish their religion from their "science", and thus pursue their opposition to a Creator on what they suppose are purely "scientific" grounds.
However, their "science" rules out the possibility of an intelligent Creator from the very outset. This consideration is not demanded by scientific evidence, but by prevailing philosophical ideas about what science ought to be. The problem with this position is that, if God really did create the universe, scientists are forbidden to acknowledge the evidence of it, and must substitute a false, naturalistic explanation in its place. This philosophical bias is neither objective nor scientific, but amounts to religious prejudice. We should never forget that any statement about God is inherently religious, whether it be the theist's affirmation or the atheist's denial.

When the Evolutionist says that life originated without the intervention of a supernatural Being, he is making a religious assertion, not a scientific one. The fact that he may be a scientist by profession, or that he conducts his science in light of this presuppostion does not change the fact that it is a religious claim. It is no more "scientific" than the Creationist's assertion of an intervening Creator.

Evolution is a doctrine which, (1) from its unproven philosophical underpinnings, denies any possibility that God created the living world with purpose and design, (2) whitewashes this philosophical/religious dogma with spurious claims of supporting scientific evidence, and then (3) markets this lie to the world as though it were a proven fact, accepted by all "reputable scientists", and which must be taught to impressionable schoolchildren lest our society fall into collapse and ruin.

This is clearly a recipe for deceiving the masses into denying God, or marginalizing those who continue to believe in a Creator, and this is one of the greatest challenges of our day for those who love the truth.

When it is suggested that the public schools should present, not only the evidence for Evolution, but also the evidence against Evolution, Darwinists become enraged. This was the case a few years ago in the Hemet, California, Unified School District.[3] Surely this is a strange response for those who claim to be "scientists"! After all, one of the chief characteristics of a true scientist is his willingness to consider all the evidence in an open, fair-minded way. Why, then, the venom? Is it possible that Evolution is based on something other than an objective investigation of the facts of the case?
When a scientist dares to suggest that Creationism is a viable alternative, he is viewed as a non-scientist or a religious propagandist, and there are some who advocate stripping such a person of his scientific credentials altogether. Henry Morris writes...

A third rule of this game of evolutionary science seems to be to insist that all scientists, by definition, are evolutionists. Even though there are today thousands of creationists with post-graduate degrees in science who are pursuing careers in science, these are commonly ignored or ridiculed or even denied status as scientists at all by the evolutionary establishment. The ploy is that, no matter what scientific credentials they might have, scientists cannot become creationists without forfeiting their status as scientists.
In fact, many think it would be better not ever to let creationists become scientists at all. Many years ago, when I was an engineering department chairman at Virginia Tech, I asked the biology professor there in charge of the doctoral program in that department whether a creationist student could get a Ph.D. degree in his department. The answer was—flat out—"NO!" No matter how outstanding his grades or his dissertation or even his knowledge of evolutionary theory might be, if he did not believe in evolution, he could not get the degree. That is the rule of the game!

This commitment to the rules has been expressed most starkly by two liberal Iowa professors:

... as a matter-of-fact: creationism should be discriminated against.... No advocate of such propaganda should be trusted to teach science classes or administer science programs anywhere or under any circumstances. Moreover, if any are now doing so, they should be dismissed. That "liberal" opinion was written by an Iowa State University engineering professor and published by the main national organization dedicated to fighting creationism wherever it surfaces—an organization whose establishment was funded by the Carnegie Foundation. An even more "liberal" sentiment was expressed by another Iowa professor who said that any professor should have the right to fail any student in his class, no matter what the grade record indicates if that professor discovers the student is a creationist. Furthermore, the student's department should have the right of retracting grades and possibly even degrees if the student becomes a creationist later Donald Gould, former editor of the New Scientist magazine, describes this behavior quite graphically ... The scientific establishment bears a grisly resemblance to the Spanish Inquisition. Either you accept the rules and attitudes and beliefs promulgated by the 'papacy' (for which read, perhaps, the Royal Society or the Royal College of Physicians), or face a dreadful retribution. We will not actually burn you at the stake, because that sanction, unhappily, is now no longer available under our milksop laws. But we will make damned sure that you are a dead duck in our trade.We see then that the behavior of pro-Evolution "scientists" is often very un-scientific, displaying a shocking degree of bigotry and prejudice. Where there ought to be calm, reasoned discussion of the issues, there are only threats, abusive name-calling and academic intimidation. Are these strong-arm tactics warranted? Who is the true scientist in such surreal confrontations?
We should never forget that many of the greatest scientists of history believed in a Creator. Rather than being an obstacle to scientific inquiry, their confidence in the God-inspired design and order of the universe prompted them to seek out the scientific principles that govern the physical sciences, and to explore the biological structures and systems that are necessary for the functioning of living things.

Garbage in—Garbage Out.
It is illegitimate to claim that science must be prejudiced against supernatural causes. Any line of reasoning that begins with a false assumption cannot be trusted to provide reliable answers. If you begin with the unfounded assumption that God was not involved in the origin of life, then you may very well arrive at the conclusion that God was not involved in the origin of life. But you will not have proved anything by this shell game of misapplied logic!

It is not science, much less scientific evidence that produces the conclusion that God was uninvolved in the origin of life. Rather it is an unsupportable philosophical presupposition that leads to this conclusion. Science cannot pretend to determine whether life came about purely by naturalistic causes if Naturalism is arbitrarily assumed at the outset and is beyond the scope of consideration or debate.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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It would have erupted it's entire mass? Haha what? Lava doesn't just disappear after it erupts from a volcano. It gets recycled and re-erupted just as it does here on earth.

Let's see what other bizarre claims we can find in here.
You actually have proven his point regarding the attitude evolutionists have about others who do not share their opinion. There is a kind of religious attachment to the theory that is not seen in any branch of science. Reminds one of the INquisition in the middle ages where the catholics killed anyone opposed to their view. They were the scientists of the day since some of the priests were also scientists as far as there was science.
 
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Amittai

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Jim and Komatiite - I strongly like the information in the sources you both quote.

In regard to the debate on strata, I think the evidence is going to tell us something diachronic but nowhere near as off-pat as the average "evolutionist" makes out.

Jim - am going to study "Irreducible Complexity".

Andrew Parker in In the blink of an eye (Basic Books 2004) distinguished between internal and external body plans. He also thinks that most "macroevolution" would have happened within a specific time frame and scarcely occurs otherwise. He points out that in Darwin's time no distinction was drawn between macroevolution and microevolution, misleading them to the premature assumption the processes were the same.

The work preliminary to hypothesis forming has GOT to be done, by people on ALL sides.

I'm trying to think of names for these questions. Could we call it:

- cosmogenesis or cosmogeny
- geogenesis or geogeny
- biogenesis or biogeny
 
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Job 33:6

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@jJIM THINNSEN

"Now you only have 98 to go!! You have work to do!!! LOL"

But of course nobody has time to sit and to go through them all.

Also, realistically there are hundreds of thousands of actual research papers that your party would hypothetically have to go through, if I cared to spam them on this site like you did.

Why don't you pick your best 3 and we can talk about them.
 
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Job 33:6

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You actually have proven his point regarding the attitude evolutionists have about others who do not share their opinion.


Sometimes all you can do is laugh at some of the bizarre things people say.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Sometimes all you can do is laugh at some of the bizarre things people say.
That’s what I mean. All your side offers is laughing or jeering at the other side all the while insisting your side is the only serious scientific side.
 
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Job 33:6

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That’s what I mean. All your side offers is laughing or jeering at the other side all the while insisting your side is the only serious scientific side.

There isn't really anything serious about the idea that a volcano might erupt the entire mass of it's planet. It's actually a very strange thought to be honest.

But alright, I'll put on my serious face and will keep my laughing to myself.

But I should also add that, people really shouldn't peddle such bizarre ideas without actually meaning what they've said. The person Jjim, folded without even talking half a second to defend the statement, which suggests that he isn't actually serious about the subject. Perhaps it isn't actually important to him. Whereas for me, I'm a geologist, so it is actually important that I don't make such bizarre claims.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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There isn't really anything serious about the idea that a volcano might erupt the entire mass of it's planet. It's actually a very strange thought to be honest.

But alright, I'll put on my serious face and will keep my laughing to myself.

But I should also add that, people really shouldn't peddle such bizarre ideas without actually meaning what they've said. The person Jjim, folded without even talking half a second to defend the statement, which suggests that he isn't actually serious about the subject. Perhaps it isn't actually important to him. Whereas for me, I'm a geologist, so it is actually important that I don't make such bizarre claims.
Since you apparently cannot refrain from jeering even when you promise you won’t, Im very confident in my opinion that the evolutionists generally use ridicule as their main argument. Not very scientific at all. (If you don’t see it imagine a scientific review employing the word “bizarre” in their writing. It’s personally insulting.)

But it’s probably easier to believe evolution if you didn’t study anatomy/physiology/biology. Those of us who do and find the theory lacking in plausiblity. See, that’s a respectful way to question another man’s theory.
 
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Job 33:6

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Since you apparently cannot refrain from jeering even when you promise you won’t, Im very confident in my opinion that the evolutionists generally use ridicule as their main argument. Not very scientific at all. (If you don’t see it imagine a scientific review employing the word “bizarre” in their writing. It’s personally insulting.)

But it’s probably easier to believe evolution if you didn’t study anatomy/physiology/biology. Those of us who do and find the theory lacking in plausiblity. See, that’s a respectful way to question another man’s theory.

Sure. I suppose what people find "unusual" could vary depending on ones background. I'll use unusual more often.

The idea that a volcano might erupt the mass of the entire moon or planet that it resides on, is an unusual statement. Typically, when volcanoes erupt, the vast majority, if not all of the mass they erupt, returns to the moon or planet that they reside on. The volcano would have to eject it's mass beyond the gravitational pull of the planet, which in many cases, is not mathematically feasible.

Just as on earth, volcanoes erupt and most, if not all mass erupted, even of the largest eruptions, simply returns to the earth and is re-erupted again.

It should also be noted that volcanoes are not necessarily as old as their respective planets or moons. Even if a volcano erupted a significant amount of mass, and even if some percentage of that mass was lost to the atmosphere, The volcano wouldn't necessarily have been conducting the same eruptions for the entire history of the planet.

To suggest that a moon would erupt all of its mass, really is just a baseless claim, and there's nothing un scientific or unprofessional about saying this. It just is what it is. Let's see what else I can dig up.
 
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Job 33:6

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  1. Carbon-14 in coal suggests ages of thousands of years and clearly contradict ages of millions of years.
  2. Carbon-14 in oil again suggests ages of thousands, not millions, of years.
  3. Carbon-14 in fossil wood also indicates ages of thousands, not millions, of years.
  4. Carbon-14 in diamonds suggests ages of thousands, not billions, of years. Note that attempts to explain away carbon-14 in diamonds, coal, etc., such as by neutrons from uranium decay converting nitrogen to C-14 do not work. See: Objections.

All of these arguments against radioactive dating all succumb to the same fundamental mistakes.

Key values in radiometric dating revolve around repeatability.

Radiometric Dating Does Work! | National Center for Science Education

There are a few tables in the above link that note the following:

1. Dates that corroborate one another.
2. Corroborating dates collected from various samples (even samples from all around the world of the same layers such as the K-T boundary)
3. Corroborating dates from various samples all around the world, via use of varying methods (see the K-T tectites table 2, note use of Ar/Ar, K/Ar, Rb/Sr, U/Pb).
4. Note consistency in results from various teams looking at various samples from various parts of the world, using various methods and machines, all showing the same results. This is something scientists have, that creation research doesn't.

Other key factors:
Scientists use quality control practices to look for false results. Things called blank samples, control samples (known parent to daughter samples), matrix spikes/additives (intentional testing of samples of known concentrations), trip samples (blanks that travel with equipment), equipment samples (blanks ran through tools).

We use many methods, and even more than just the above, to examine credibility of results.

Creationist "research" doesn't do this. They don't function at the level that scientists otherwise do.

And it's easy to demonstrate this lack of critique on behalf of creationists by simply looking at their articles, and observing the absence of quality control practices in their analytical methods. and when creationist research suggests that diamonds are only a few hundred or maybe just a couple thousand years old, it only takes a second or two to look at the lack of quality control methods in their analytical practices, and to then throw their research out.

But when we look at actual science, We are looking at various samples from around the world being ran through different machines being tested by different teams of scientists, different isotopes are being tested, variable quality control methods are being implemented, and the results are coming out identical for individual samples of a single layer of rock.
 
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Hieronymus

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As it is impossible to manage sailing or trading based on a mythological view of the world, so it is impossible to use mythological model of Genesis for biology, astronomy, meteorology or paleontology.
Hey, put those goal post back! ;^)
Therefore some other plausible models must be proposed like the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Evolution.
Total non sequitur.
You force the useful knowledge of today's reality into the question about the origins of today's reality for no reason whatsoever.
And the models are not as plausible as you've been made to believe either.
It's supposed to be naturalism, but they invoke reversed entropy, to replace God.
But because there is still a need for God as the origin and purpose of all creation and reality, the theistic evolution works for most Christians. Also because we believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
No, it's plain old peer pressure that forces Christians to embrace Darwin's 19th century conjecture.
Naturalists however, have no other option, but that's their problem, not ours.

I have just listened to an interview with a molecular biologist and there was also a question if virus is a living organism.

He says that its something between living organisms and non living things. It needs to get into a cell to reproduce and to begin to "live", but is quite inactive until that.
So they can not exist without living things.
But if you want an example of mutations on "small levels", then bacterias, that are living organisms, are constantly developing resistance to various antibiotics.
Actually nothing 'develops'.
The non resistant bacteria simply go extinct.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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Logical post. I’d have to think about the topic to see if I remember it, but I’ll tell you this, I don’t discern a man’s maturity in christ by how well he presents subjects having nothing to do with the Kingdom of God. I discern maturity by how well a man understands matters of the Kingdom.

To a man, all theistic evolutionists I’ve heard (without exception) and no bias, knew just about nothing of the Kingdom of God. They had experienced a change of heart as to the claims of Christ but one foot is clearly and firmly planted in the world. To maintain their status in the world they trash the character of God which doesn’t bother them at all.

So I didn’t hear Dr Collins talk
about TE. He was supposed to
give a talk on the Bible. It’s actually better for discernment to come at a matter sideways when the guard is down. The question as to whether a man is deceived or not is not to ask him about that which he is deceived but by matters that are clouded BY his being deceived.

"To maintain their status in the world they trash the character of God which doesn’t bother them at all."

Yup, they ALL do that... I posit that if they were to become born again of the spirit like Jesus commanded his followers to do, The blinding scales would fall from their eyes and they would drop the fairytale of Evolutionism in an instant and embrace Gods truth... The Bible addresses the Oval-Earthers and especially the militant ones like Kenneth Miller in clear language...

Matthew 7:15
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Matthew 7:15-23
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ...

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

Romans 16:17-18
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

MATTHEW 7
"22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’ 24Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock"
 
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