Why do YEC Christians commonly challenge the theory of evolution, while...

[Philip_B]

Obviously everything exists in and through Jesus. We will see eternity when He returns but in the here and now, the clock is ticking.

Eschatology the the study of the meeting of time and eternity:

• At Creation when all that was before time encountered time, God spake it it was so
• In the person of Jesus the Word became flesh and tabernacled in our midst
• At the end of time when Christ returns to gather his own
• In the reading of the Holy Gospel where we encounter to Living Word in the Words Read
• In the Holy Sacrament of the Altar where eternity break through
• In countless moments in life where the presence of Christ is recognised

For we are the people of the Eschaton

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Does John Lennox or David Berlinski affirm YEC?

Not that I am aware, but you'd have to read them more thoroughly. My point is that if you think you want to make headway, you need to have a better argument than mockery. The reasoned argument will always win over the mockery, even when the argument is flawed.

I think your analogy is not valid. In both of your examples you will get either 40,000 or 400,000 portions of 7 , which is (2+5).

And what is wrong with that. That is how mathematics works. This is my point about mockery. You need to say it sensibly and you will be treated sensibly by most (and if they mock back then they probably don't have a reasoned argument either).

I was talking about introducing SUPERnatural into math or physics.

Which is a reasonable argument, even if it assumes that there is anything wrong in introducing the supernatural into maths or physics.

Years ago an atheist was complaining about this to me and when I questioned him why it was an issue, he said, "it's not natural!" Well duh! Of course not, it's SUPERnatural as you put it.

QUOTE="BigV, post: 74981782, member: 209098"] why aren’t you ok with 2 whole apples plus 5 whole apples = 40,000 whole apples?[/QUOTE]

I'm not happy with nor would any sensible person be. It is very bad mathematics. It is possible I guess if you use some fractional base, but that's well beyond my level of mathematics. I think the reasonable thing to say in base 10, 2 + 5 = 7 and it always has and it always will. I suspect if that ever changes, the whole universe would explode or implode! As far as I know neither Jesus, nor any Christian (who is old enough to understand basic mathematics) would disagree with that.

But then my guess is you were trying to mock (badly) the feeding of the five thousand where it specifically says that he broke the bread (i.e. divided it up). So your mockery backfires when faced with intelligent reasoning as I warned.

 

[BigV]

If the spiritual world includes an extra dimension then such a thing could be straightforward: the bread and fish could simply be 'dropped' here from there. From our point of view they would appear instantaneously within the baskets.

Nice, so why don't more Christians challenge math like they do biology? I mean, 2 apples plus 3 apples could equal twelve baskets full of apples.

But I feel this is going in circles now.

Math itself is part of the framework we have for understanding anything. Biology is the scientific study of physical life.

I affirm miracles. I do not affirm logical absurdities.

But math in a Christian world does NOT work the same as in natural world! In a naturalistic world, 2 apples plus 3 apples = 5 apples. But in a Christian world, 2 apples plus 3 apples could equal twelve baskets full of apples.

In a Christian world, a man can walk on water without sinking. A mountain can move and the Sun can stop moving (or the Earth, depending on how progressive a Christian is). And all of this without any ill effects from inertia forces. I mean, this is absurdity for a naturalist. But is not absurdity for a miracle believing Christian.

You say you affirm miracles on the one hand, but then talk about not affirming logical absurdities. I think you want to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[BigV]

Not that I am aware, but you'd have to read them more thoroughly. My point is that if you think you want to make headway, you need to have a better argument than mockery. The reasoned argument will always win over the mockery, even when the argument is flawed.

If what I'm saying is mockery to you, then I suggest you think about the issue some more. After all, you are the one believing in talking snakes and donkeys.

But then my guess is you were trying to mock (badly) the feeding of the five thousand where it specifically says that he broke the bread (i.e. divided it up). So your mockery backfires when faced with intelligent reasoning as I warned.

Uhm... think about what you are saying here. Jesus divided the bread by multiplying it? Perhaps I should have used an example in math where diving a smaller quantity makes the end result magnitudes larger than the initial substance you were dividing. Then it would NOT be mockery?

So, a Christian math goes like this.

(2 fish + 5 bread)/5,000 = 12 full baskets of food AND 5,000 people who were fed?

In a naturalistic world, when you are dividing something, you are NOT increasing whatever it is you are dividing. But, in a Christian world, you are doing the opposite.

 

[Sketcher]

But math in a Christian world does NOT work the same as in natural world! In a naturalistic world, 2 apples plus 3 apples = 5 apples. But in a Christian world, 2 apples plus 3 apples could equal twelve baskets full of apples.

That doesn't change what 2+3=5 is. For the miracle to have meaning, you have to count the baskets full of apples, and the numbers themselves have to be consistent throughout. The quantity of apples multiplies, but the numbers representing how many apples there are remain the same.

You say you affirm miracles on the one hand, but then talk about not affirming logical absurdities. I think you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Seek first to understand before marrying yourself to a conclusion.

 

[Philip_B]

Is God a Creative Genius or an Accountant? I have nothing against Accountants however I don't see it as part of God's character.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

No it wasn't.

read much?
“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state as we may hope, than the Caucasian and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

“I could show fight on natural selection having done and doing more for the progress of civilization than you seem inclined to admit. Remember what risk the nations of Europe ran, not so many centuries ago of being overwhelmed by the Turks, and how ridiculous such an idea now is! The more civilised so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilized races throughout the world.”
― Charles Darwin

 

[the iconoclast]

not challenging math or physics?

Hey hey big v

Creationist here. I think evolution is fanciful, but physics and math have nothing to do with my conclusion.

What you think my dear friend?

Cheers

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

If what I'm saying is mockery to you, then I suggest you think about the issue some more. After all, you are the one believing in talking snakes and donkeys.

Well that really shows your level of knowledge doesn't it? It sounds like your source of information is Ricky Gervais. Again your mockery shows a lack of critical thinking.

What's more you've attacked Christianity and Judaism, but not YEC despite your opening post. I'm guessing you may not even know what evidence YEC put forward.

Uhm... think about what you are saying here. Jesus divided the bread by multiplying it? Perhaps I should have used an example in math where diving a smaller quantity makes the end result magnitudes larger than the initial substance you were dividing. Then it would NOT be mockery?

So, a Christian math goes like this.

(2 fish + 5 bread)/5,000 = 12 full baskets of food AND 5,000 people who were fed?

First and foremost I'm not saying any of the things you have attributed to me. Neither is anyone else that I've read so far, nor does the Bible say what you want it to say to enable your mockery. With each word it becomes clearer that you haven't actually thought the issue through.

As I've repeatedly pointed out using your mockery blinds you to your own prejudices. If your objection is to miracles, why not say that, why imply that Christians can't do mathematics when I suspect many of them have a far better grasp of the subject than you do (e.g. the previously mentioned John Lennox).

If your objection is against miracles then why even mention YEC? That seems a red herring and it makes you sound more confused about what you are objecting to.

If you were to use this reasoning on a philosophy paper, it would be sent back with an 'F'. Mocking an opponent's viewpoint is not the same as showing why it is wrong.

In a naturalistic world, when you are dividing something, you are NOT increasing whatever it is you are dividing. But, in a Christian world, you are doing the opposite.

This is a little better. You could have just typed this. It would have saved you a lot of typing and us a lot of reading and it sounds like a reasoned bit of thinking, whereas the rest is hyperbole.

To answer your question in a Christian world we are doing the same as everyone else. We are dividing up something and not increasing whatever we are dividing. If that were in the slightest way true, then Christians would all be millionaires while atheists would be totally poor.

What is more the Feeding of the 5,000 (the four thousand had more loaves if memory serves) is considered a miraculous event. It certainly isn't a normal one. If it were normal then it would not be remarkable.

So for you to dismiss it is going to take a whole lot more than 'it's bad mathematics'. I'd recommend Hume's 'Of Miracles' though I gather philosophers largely dismiss it as a poor argument nowadays, but it is a far better argument than yours.

And then you'd still have to explain why YEC is invalid.

 

[Hieronymus]

not challenging math or physics?

Just acknowledge the difference between the present and the past and there's your answer.

 

[ChetSinger]

Nice, so why don't more Christians challenge math like they do biology? I mean, 2 apples plus 3 apples could equal twelve baskets full of apples.

But I feel this is going in circles now.

Personally, it's because I don't see such miracles occurring on a daily basis.

 

[SPF]

So how was Jesus able to feed 5000+ people with only 2 fish and 5 loaves AND while having twelve baskets of food remaining?

For the same reason that God was able to create the universe ex-nihilo. Creating something from nothing is possible for an omnipotent being.

Jesus did not make 2+2=3, that is illogical.

You're making a categorical mistake and I think you're actually intelligent enough to know you're doing it, so I'm not sure why you're trolling right now.

God is not illogical, nor can He "do" non-sensical things. Again, things like creating another eternal being is something He cannot do. It's non-sensical.

God cannot create another being more powerful than Himself, He is by definition already a Maximally Great Being (MGB).

God cannot draw a square-circle. It's non-sensical.

The quantity of 1 added to another quantity of 1 will never equal a quantity of 3.

Creating more fish out of a basket of fish is something that is possible for an omnipotent being.

 

[essentialsaltes]

read much?

Plenty.

While Darwin had the common prejudices of his day about 'civilized' Europeans and the 'savage races', he is not suggesting (as you did) that negros or Turks are a biological 'missing link' between the other apes and man. He clearly recognized the full humanity of all humans, one of the reasons he was an ardent abolitionist.

 

[BigV]

Jesus did not make 2+2=3, that is illogical.

The quantity of 1 added to another quantity of 1 will never equal a quantity of 3.

Creating more fish out of a basket of fish is something that is possible for an omnipotent being.

Which of your contradictory answers are you willing to stick by?

If the quantity of 2 fish could equal 12 full baskets of fish, then how are you being logical?

All I'm saying, is that in a world where miracles are possible, naturalism just doesn't apply. Walking on water, teleportation (i.e. where a man moves in a science fictional way.
Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. )

Is that not illogical? If that's logical, then 2+2 fish equal 1,000 is logical too.

 

[SPF]

If the quantity of 2 fish could equal 12 full baskets of fish, then how are you being logical?

You're not properly understanding the miracle. The miracle was that Jesus took a basket that had two fish and 5 loaves and somehow managed to feed 5,000 people with it. The how in which Jesus performed this miracle would seem to be that he created ex nihilo additional fish and loaves to feed the people.

Thus, what we have is a miracle and testimony to the Divinity of Christ as He created food ex nihilo.

Again, one of the attributes of a Maximally Great Being is omnipotence. This is how God created the universe, He did it ex nihilo.

There is nothing illogical about that.

All I'm saying, is that in a world where miracles are possible, naturalism just doesn't apply. Walking on water, teleportation (i.e. where a man moves in a science fictional way.
Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. )

Is that not illogical?

Well, naturalism is the worldview that everything arises from natural properties and causes, thus everything spiritual or supernatural is excluded. So of course Christians are not naturalists.

Nothing Jesus did while He lived violated any laws of logic.

 

[BigV]

You're not properly understanding the miracle. The miracle was that Jesus took a basket that had two fish and 5 loaves and somehow managed to feed 5,000 people with it. The how in which Jesus performed this miracle would seem to be that he created ex nihilo additional fish and loaves to feed the people.

Thus, what we have is a miracle and testimony to the Divinity of Christ as He created food ex nihilo.

Again, one of the attributes of a Maximally Great Being is omnipotence. This is how God created the universe, He did it ex nihilo.

There is nothing illogical about that.

Well, this is absolutely illogical in a naturalistic word, but not illogical in a world where ex-nihilo creation happens.

So, again, 2 apples + 5 apples = 10,000 apples. This is illogical in a natural world, but not illogical in the ex-nihilo world.

Look, YEC Christistians have no issues with miracles in a biology class. So, why do they have problems with miracles in a math class?

Why the inconsistency?

 

[SPF]

Well, this is absolutely illogical in a naturalistic word, but not illogical in a world where ex-nihilo creation happens.

You're wrong. Even in a naturalistic world, miracles are not illogical, they are impossible. There is a distinction there that you aren't seeming capable of making yet. Miracles do not break the fundamental philosophical laws of logic.

Within a naturalistic framework, it would be impossible for a man to walk on water. Not illogical for a man to walk on water.

God has never done anything illogical.

An example of something illogical (non-sensical) would be drawing a square-circle.

So, again, 2 apples + 5 apples = 10,000 apples. This is illogical in a natural world, but not illogical in the ex-nihilo world.

2 apples + 5 apples = 10,000 apples would be illogical in a world with our without the existence of God.

Look, YEC Christistians have no issues with miracles in a biology class. So, why do they have problems with miracles in a math class?

Why the inconsistency?

Why do you not grasp what a categorical mistake is?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

2 apples + 5 apples = 10,000 apples

Just to be clear this would not be the equation used. Try this instead:

2 apples + 5 apples + God's miracle = however many apples are necessary.

Now it could be taught in maths, though I doubt it will as it is not all that helpful.

 

[Ophiolite]

The reasoned argument will always win over the mockery, even when the argument is flawed.

My observation is that, in many cases, the mockery kicks in after the YEC has rejected the argument without reason and ignored the evidence without justification, and quite often introduced their own attempts at mockery with distorted strawman attacks.
I can agree with your point, but suggest a gentle suggestion by you, to YECs, that they approach discussions on evolution with a mind at least slightly ajar, would be welcome and have a much larger impact than any argument 'evolutionists' might provide. YEC's seem to automatically reject anything we might say.

 

[SPF]

YEC's seem to automatically reject anything we might say.

As opposed to atheists who don't automatically reject anything a YEC says....