Why do some want to believe in Purgatory - even though it is against the Bible?

[SharonL]

God does not see the label of Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc. - He sees what is on the heart. We are the church - a building does not make a church. There will not be a place in Heaven marked as a denomination. A personal relationship with Jesus led by the Holy Spirit and Blessed by God is the calling that God has upon our lives. With that kind of a relationship we will be the church that God will come back for.

 

[FireDragon76]

No one is saying that they have to CONSIDER other Christian churches to be genuine or valid, but this is what's done in public at the same time as the Vatican is pretending to be interested in church reunificaftion.

I see no reason to doubt their sincerity, though of course I am sure that desire is tempered by realism. That doesn't make Catholics disingenuous.

Given the average Protestant's ecclesiology, I don't see how the term "ecclesial communities" is without merit. In these discussions at official levels, it is important for each side to be honest and not seek to misrepresent what they believe. If Protestants and Catholics are to be honest truth-seekers together it is important to put aside our pride and not be afraid of hearing things that sound "condescending".

 

[Albion]

I see no reason to doubt their sincerity, though of course I am sure that desire is tempered by realism. That doesn't make Catholics disingenuous.

I didn't suggest any of that but was referring only to the use of such deliberately insulting, demeaning language. There really is no excuse for it IMO. I'll call the oddest congregation's assembly a "church" and I'll call their minister "Reverend" or "Pastor" regardless of what I think of their lack of Apostolic Succession or whatever. It's juvenile or boorish not to be rudimentarily civil in these situations. You'd expect better from the world's largest church, if not from some cult.

 

[FireDragon76]

Does your statement apply to non-Christians? If you met the Dalai Lama, would you call him "Your Holiness"? Keep in mind, the Dalai Lama rejects a belief in God (though he believes in a universe inhabited by all sorts of spirits and demons) and none of the doctrines he believes in are remotely similar to Christian doctrines.

For the Catholics, some of the issues involved in acknowledging Protestant bodies are almost that profound as between Christians and non-Christians. They believe there is an objectivity to the Christian faith, that it has institutions. When discussing matters of official Catholic doctrine or operating in an official capacity, I would expect the Roman Catholics to abide by their beliefs about those institutions and not cease to be catholic according to their self-understanding, even when discussing other Christian bodies.

Catholics acknowledge Protestants as brothers. That is a profound step from the situation hundreds of years ago when Protestants were condemned and persecuted (and Protestants in turn returned the favor). What is amazing is that this understanding did not come from an indifference to doctrinal or practical matters, but an honest dialogue and a resourcement of what we have in common.

 

[Albion]

Does your statement apply to non-Christians?

Certainly. There's no profession of one's faith or doctrines in calling any leader by his accustomed title, no matter how silly or presumptuous it may seem to the world.

Catholics acknowledge Protestants as brothers.

They claim that they do, but their speech denies it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I know, right?
The convenience of redefinition.

Very common among Protestants. Take something that has, for 2000 years, meant one thing, then change it, lickety split, to suit your own needs.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Pretty condescending or patronizing, wouldn't you say?

No, we wouldn't say. But you would. So go ahead-feel condescended!

 

[Root of Jesse]

Each of us can make our own decision on that, but I consider it condescending, just like calling non-Roman Catholic churches "ecclesial communities" or some other version of that term. No one is saying that they have to CONSIDER other Christian churches to be genuine or valid, but this is what's done in public at the same time as the Vatican is pretending to be interested in church reunificaftion.

We know Christ instituted one Church, so there can't be Churches. God will reunify us when he sees fit. He already does so in heaven. All those in heaven are part of the one Church Christ founded, completely and perfectly fulfilled.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Certainly. There's no profession of one's faith or doctrines in calling any leader by his accustomed title, no matter how silly or presumptuous it may seem to the world.


They claim that they do, but their speech denies it.

Your understanding of what we say is the problem, not what we say. In other words..."I hear what they're saying, and I don't believe it. So they're at fault for it."

 

[FireDragon76]

A few months ago, Pope Francis met with the Archbishop of Uppsala, who is a woman. He addressed her as "esteemed sister". I don't see anything inherently disrespectful about that, because it shows a recognition of equality. But the same time it avoids the ecclesiastical issue of having to recognize her office as having the same validity as one of their own archbishops, which the Pope does not have the authority to do, as per the reforms of Vatican II.

And yet, there was still some conservative Catholics offended that he visited her at all to discuss common Christian mission and witness, because they saw it as an implicit acknowledgement of her spiritual authority (which I don't believe the Pope denies).

 

[Albion]

A few months ago, Pope Francis met with the Archbishop of Uppsala, who is a woman. He addressed her as "esteemed sister".

Possibly not, but it has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[FireDragon76]

Just because you are comfortable with a certain degree of doctrinal indifferentism doesn't mean all Christians should be. Nor does it mean that those individuals that insist on doctrinal clarity are being unloving. Disagreements are unfortunate, but it doesn't mean that one party necessarily must be deemed guilty and another innocent.

Evangelizing the modern world is one area that Catholics and Protestants should be able to work together on common ground without holding old grudges. "Whoever is not against us is for us", after all.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I still have yet to see any proof of the title of this thread-that Purgatory is against the Bible...

 

[Albion]

Just because you are comfortable with a certain degree of doctrinal indifferentism doesn't mean all Christians should be. Nor does it mean that those individuals that insist on doctrinal clarity are being unloving. Disagreements are unfortunate, but it doesn't mean that one party necessarily must be deemed guilty and another innocent.

Who are you addressing there?

 

[Albion]

Your understanding of what we say is the problem, not what we say.

No, it's precisely because of what "we" say...and thanks at least for not trying to deny that it's said, Jesse.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I still have yet to see any proof of the title of this thread-that Purgatory is against the Bible...

Souldier provided proof way back in the beginning, and you ignored it.

Col 3 speaks of Christians as being DEAD and that their life is hid IN CHRIST with God who IS their LIFE, and that when He appears, that WE shall appear with Him.

If that's not proof then I don't know what is.

You simply can't receive it, because then your assembly would be wrong, and that's not allowed.

 

[Albion]

I still have yet to see any proof of the title of this thread-that Purgatory is against the Bible.

The title/subject is WHY do people believe it although it's against the Bible.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No, it's precisely because of what "we" say...and thanks for not trying to deny it.

So, like, when someone extends their hand in friendship, and you just look at it and turn away...I get it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The title/subject is WHY do people believe it although it's against the Bible.

But no one has proved the assertion that it's against the Bible.

 

[FireDragon76]

Some kind of purification is consistent with the Christian life, even after we depart this one, perhaps. Beyond that, I believe alot of the traditional Catholic attitudes towards Purgatory are speculation.