Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[BobRyan]

I provide a list of texts - and quote them showing that OSAS does not survive the text.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382

The response has been to avoid the texts entirely so as to get OSAS to survive them.

It's been noted to you multiple times that zero of those citings show a fallen believer eternally killed. Zero.

only by avoiding the texts entirely was that "shown".

I could link to them again - or should I provide the actual text again?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Not saying that at all. No one performs themselves sinless, period. There is no 'when we sin' measure. Sin indwells us and is a constant adverse companion.

You have a false notion about sin. Temptation is not sin - Christ was tempted in all points as we are - yet without sin.

The sinful nature is not sinning - it is the inclination to sin.

thus as Paul said -- only the lost "cannot" obey the Law of God.
Rom 8:5-8.

By contrast to the lost - Rev 14:12 the saints "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-54/#post65915303

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bottomofsandal]

That theology splits itself into condemnation of profane sins and blessings for sacred sins with non-stop rebellion against the Law of God (in some form or another) as "the norm".

By contrast the Bible says the saints actually keep the Law of God while the lost "cannot" keep it.

I finally figured out your pov and how you are soft on sin.

You are only dealing with sins of commission, while ignoring omission.

There is NO ONE righteous, not even one !!! That means you and me !




Here is where all of us fail all the time...loving God and neighbor.

The standard is so high (perfection) that only God can accomplish.

No one loves God and neighbor perfectly all the time.

Continual sinning, every day, all the time, we all fall short.




Matthew 22:36-40New King James Version (NKJV)

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[Sunshine Locket]

, just as Moses gave the Hebrews salvation from the Egyptians in the OT.....with heaps of help from YAHWEH of course.

Talk about your false teaching!

Moses did not give salvation to the Jews! That is blasphemy!
Moses was the shepherd that guided the flock of Israel to their exodus from Egypt!
It is not the law of Moses! It is the law of GOD! That Moses received when he went up the mountain.

 

[bottomofsandal]

You have a false notion about sin. Temptation is not sin - Christ was tempted in all points as we are - yet without sin.

The sinful nature is not sinning - it is the inclination to sin.

thus as Paul said -- only the lost "cannot" obey the Law of God.
Rom 8:5-8.

I think you are now just making things up out of thin air.

I am going to post Romans 8:5-8. You show us where you get this ^




Romans 8:5-8 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.




You are really a pro-OSASer who is keeping himself by law-keeping.

By keeping The Law you are keeping your salvation.

Losing salvation seems to pertain to other "sinners" and not you.

 

[Sunshine Locket]

I think you kind of soiled your slant when earlier in this thread it was said that those who do not hold OSAS are not saved.

You appear to be very confused and therefore are the one soiling themselves here.
Perhaps you can get with a Christian, or read on-line scripture and learn what Salvation is defined as first.

Then realize that those who deny OSAS are the ones promoting blasphemy as relates to eternal, seek out also the definition of eternal, salvation!

When they then argue that that what is eternal through Jesus Christ can be revoked through human fault and error they are demonstrating two things. They do not now the scriptures. And they are false teachers. Liars. Blasphemers.

They're calling Jesus a liar when they claim someone can lose their salvation.
Anyone who thinks their actions after they have been redeemed and accepted Jesus as their savior can cause Jesus to revoke his grace, was never saved in the first place.
They don't know Jesus! They don't know the meaning of salvation.

Those that renounce OSAS are those who want to put a ring in the nose of the fallen and make them a slave to fear.Feeding them self-deprecating ideology that literally leads them to damnation. Because they are led to believe that they the message of the cross is revocable due to the carnal will of humans.

Blasphemy damns!

 

[BobRyan]

I finally figured out your pov and how you are soft on sin.

You are only dealing with sins of commission, while ignoring omission.

There is NO ONE righteous, not even one !!! That means you and me !

"The just shall live by faith".

"it is not the hearers of the law that ARE Just before God but the doers of the LAW Will BE justifIED... on the day when according to my Gospel God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

"To him who knows to DO RIGHT and DOES IT not - to him it is sin" James 4:17

At no point have i stated that I am excluding that sin from the definition.

Here is where all of us fail all the time...loving God and neighbor.

The standard is so high (perfection) that only God can accomplish.

No text says that "Failure to be God is sin".

Continual sinning, every day, all the time, we all fall short.

That is the claim Paul makes in Rom 8:5-8 for the lost. They "do not submit" the Law of God "neither indeed CAN they"

In Romans 6 Paul states plainly that you are the servant of the one you actually obey --- either sin... or righteousness.

Romans 6:12
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.



1 John 5:1-4 - the saints are known to love God and Love each other by the fact that they are Keeping the Commandments of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Not saying that at all. No one performs themselves sinless, period. There is no 'when we sin' measure. Sin indwells us and is a constant adverse companion.

You have a false notion about sin. Temptation is not sin - Christ was tempted in all points as we are - yet without sin.

The sinful nature is not sinning - it is the inclination to sin.

thus as Paul said -- only the lost "cannot" obey the Law of God.
Rom 8:5-8.

By contrast to the lost - Rev 14:12 the saints "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-54/#post65915303

I think you are now just making things up out of thin air.

I am going to post Romans 8:5-8. You show us where you get this ^

I have already posted it numerous times and then as in the example above - linked to it as well.

Paul contrasts the lost vs the saved in Romans 8:1-16 with the main problem for the lost identified in vs 5-8.

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


In Romans 8 we all see that Paul says the saints walk not after the flesh but according to the Spirit. in their actual walk - not just in imagination.

In fact John says that the one who claims to be Christian and yet does not keep the Commandments of God in real life - is lying.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6[FONT=&quot] He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked[FONT=&quot].

As I point out in my signature line below - this is a point where Catholics, Calvinists, the Baptist Confession of Faith - et all can agree on the bible teaching regarding perseverance and obedience. At least to a point.

And the result is that obedience does matter - such that OSAS does not survive Matt 18 or Matt 6, or Romans 11 etc (As already pointed out in that prior link) -

Here is a subject where Catholics can have a field day - proclaiming the SOLA scriptura argument - to demonstrate the flaw in the tradition of OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[squint]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]In Romans 8 we all see that Paul says the saints walk not after the flesh but according to the Spirit. in their actual walk - not just in imagination.

Not a single person of them claimed to be sinless, period.

To think that, that there is a performance to make oneself sinless is to be entrapped by lies. Such have lost the race before they even get out of the gate.

Lying is A SIN. God is nobodies fool.
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

And the result is that obedience does matter - such that OSAS does not survive Matt 18 or Matt 6, or Romans 11 etc (As already pointed out in that prior link) -

OSAS is not performance based, which performances none can claim in any case.

I hate to break reality to y'all, but no one is ever sinless via legal performances or any other phony religious shows put on in front of their neighbors.

I hate phonies because they are liars. If I feel that way I expect God is a lot less patient, but that is probably not the case.

s
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[bottomofsandal]

No text says that "Failure to be God is sin".

Wrong. God is Love.

Failure to love (be like God) is sin

Next question

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
No text says that "Failure to be God is sin".

Wrong. God is Love.

Failure to love (be like God) is sin

Just because one loves God and his neighbor does not mean that person "is equal to God" -

Your dichotomy is that one either is God - or they do not love.

The Bible does not teach that.



speaking of which -

1 John 5:1-4
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not

 

[bottomofsandal]

Just because one loves God and his neighbor does not mean that person "is equal to God" -

Your dichotomy is that one either is God - or they do not love.

The Bible does not teach that.



speaking of which -

1 John 5:1-4
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not

I see you have your scissors out this morning


The command is to love all the time

Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect

Now you are saying not to follow God's commands ?




You seem confused, better have some more coffee...LOL

 

[BobRyan]

Not a single person of them claimed to be sinless, period.

You are offering the false dichotomy that one either never sins -- or one is in non-stop sinning.

You have a false notion about sin. Temptation is not sin - Christ was tempted in all points as we are - yet without sin.

The sinful nature is not sinning - it is the inclination to sin.

thus as Paul said -- only the lost "cannot" obey the Law of God.
Rom 8:5-8.

By contrast to the lost - Rev 14:12 the saints "keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-54/#post65915303



Paul contrasts the lost vs the saved in Romans 8:1-16 with the main problem for the lost identified in vs 5-8.

[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


In Romans 8 we all see that Paul says the saints walk not after the flesh but according to the Spirit. in their actual walk - not just in imagination.

In fact John says that the one who claims to be Christian and yet does not keep the Commandments of God in real life - is lying.

1 John 2
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6[FONT=&quot] He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked[FONT=&quot].

As I point out in my signature line below - this is a point where Catholics, Calvinists, the Baptist Confession of Faith - et all can agree on the bible teaching regarding perseverance and obedience. At least to a point.

And the result is that obedience does matter - such that OSAS does not survive Matt 18 or Matt 6, or Romans 11 etc (As already pointed out in that prior link) -

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[squint]

You appear to be very confused and therefore are the one soiling themselves here.
Perhaps you can get with a Christian, or read on-line scripture and learn what Salvation is defined as first.

Then realize that those who deny OSAS are the ones promoting blasphemy as relates to eternal, seek out also the definition of eternal, salvation!

When they then argue that that what is eternal through Jesus Christ can be revoked through human fault and error they are demonstrating two things. They do not now the scriptures. And they are false teachers. Liars. Blasphemers.

They're calling Jesus a liar when they claim someone can lose their salvation.
Anyone who thinks their actions after they have been redeemed and accepted Jesus as their savior can cause Jesus to revoke his grace, was never saved in the first place.
They don't know Jesus! They don't know the meaning of salvation.

Those that renounce OSAS are those who want to put a ring in the nose of the fallen and make them a slave to fear.Feeding them self-deprecating ideology that literally leads them to damnation. Because they are led to believe that they the message of the cross is revocable due to the carnal will of humans.

Blasphemy damns!

We agree on OSAS. I disagree that the understanding makes those who see otherwise damned. Those who adhere to OSAS in some cases can also be enlightened enough to love others as ourselves, which damnation to other sinners betrays.

There are plenty of trap doors in Christianity. Damning other sinners who have called upon God in Christ to save them, even if they see their own failures, is one of those traps that I detest.

I suggest to take a step down from the high horse about damning sinners who claim Christ even if they don't see it like you.

Our 'whole package' isn't going to heaven. If you'd like to read my post #522 in this thread for an accurate picture of what we 'really' consist of from a scriptural presentation and respond to it, you're welcome. Otherwise spare me the rant and damnation.

s

 

[BobRyan]

Put simply -- OSAS does not survive the sola scriptura test.

One simple example in Matt 18 that is spelled out in detail in Ezek 18.

Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[squint]

You are offering the false dichotomy that one either never sins -- or one is in non-stop sinning.
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
Bob
[/FONT][/FONT]

No amount of performances are going to make anyone sinless Bob. Not even for a nano-second.

Sorry to break it to ya.

Most hard core legalists may have been under that delusion for quite awhile so it may take awhile to get real about it.

If your claim is temporary sinlessness via legal performances I can only shake my head at such grandiose nonsense.

s

 

[BobRyan]

1 John 5:1-4
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not

I see you have your scissors out this morning


The command is to love all the time

Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect

Now you are saying not to follow God's commands ?

It would be difficult to read 1John 5:1-4 as "do not follow God's Commands".

The perfection that Christ called for in the Gospel is not that we "be God" but that we be righteous - that we KEEP His commandments - "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments" - John 14:15.

Not "If you love me - be in non-stop rebellion against my Commandments breaking them every second" as has been supposed by some in the past.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[squint]

Talk about your false teaching!

Moses did not give salvation to the Jews! That is blasphemy!
Moses was the shepherd that guided the flock of Israel to their exodus from Egypt!
It is not the law of Moses! It is the law of GOD! That Moses received when he went up the mountain.

Ah, another opportunity to shine some LIGHT.

Read Romans 11:25-32 and then tell me if enemies of the Gospel who were Jews will be saved as Paul shows.

You might be surprised, that ALL of Israel shall be saved. Yeah, them sinners too.

s

 

[BobRyan]

No amount of performances are going to make anyone sinless Bob. Not even for a nano-second.

That would leave you stuck in the sacred-sin vs profane-sin error with saints doomed to non-stop-sinning every second.

1John 5:1-4 does not allow it.

1John 2:1 does not allow it.

Rev 14:12 does not allow it.

Romans 8:5-8 does not allow it.

And worst of all - 1Cor 10 makes this an issue about the "Faithfulness of God" that is being doubted when one lays claim to "nonstop sinning".

The non-stop sinning doctrine has no room for 1Cor 10 and its appeal to "the faithfulness of God"

1 Cor 10
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

And it has no room for Romans 6.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In the event that the list of texts that OSAS cannot survive is too long -
http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382

I provide an example of just one.

Put simply -- OSAS does not survive the sola scriptura test.

One simple example in Matt 18 that is spelled out in detail in Ezek 18.

Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The solution for OSAS cannot be to simply avoid the texts that OSAS does not survive.

How could one ever then promote the idea of "sola scriptura testing" of doctrine - when in fact in cases where their own traditions are challenged by the Bible - the immediate "solution" is to avoid the Bible texts that oppose.

The idea that the Bible does not allow for obedience to the Commandments of God and therefore no amount of sin and rebellion matters (not matter what Christ said in Matt 18 to the contrary)- since we must as saints live in non-stop rebellion against God's Law - was refuted here.


http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-54/#post65915303

in Christ,

Bob