Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[squint]

That would leave you stuck in the sacred-sin vs profane-sin error with saints doomed to non-stop-sinning every second.

Bob

If you're claiming your 'legal performances' have made you sinless, even for a brief period of time Bob, just say so.

s

 

[bottomofsandal]

Put simply -- OSAS does not survive the sola scriptura test.

One simple example in Matt 18 that is spelled out in detail in Ezek 18.

Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

It's important to rightly divide The Word of Truth.

This passage identifies an unbeliever and a counterfeit.



How can a carnal man show God's mercy unless he has experienced mercy ?

A man is merciful because God's mercy has changed his heart to be so.

A man who does not love, does not know God, therefore he cannot love.

A man without mercy and love is not a child of God.

 

[seashale76]

It's a matter of timing. If by 'once saved' you mean that the believer in question endured in the faith until the end of their life and finished his or her race, then yes, that individual is 'always saved'. If, however, you simply mean someone had a conversion experience, then no dice. I've seen how that works. The conversion experience person will go through a period where he or she stumbles and has issues, and the OSAS crowd will cry, "Oh, that person had a 'false conversion'." LOL- whatever.

 

[BobRyan]

It's a matter of timing. If by 'once saved' you mean that the believer in question endured in the faith until the end of their life and finished his or her race, then yes, that individual is 'always saved'. If, however, you simply mean someone had a conversion experience, then no dice. I've seen how that works. The conversion experience person will go through a period where he or she stumbles and has issues, and the OSAS crowd will cry, "Oh, that person had a 'false conversion'." LOL- whatever.

j

One form of the argument here (so far) that promotes OSAS says that since we are doomed to non-stop sinning even as saints -- non-stop rebellion against the Law of God every second -- then it makes no sense to argue that some special sin has caused us to "Fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ" - the way Paul says in Gal 5:4.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Mama Kidogo]

It's a matter of timing. If by 'once saved' you mean that the believer in question endured in the faith until the end of their life and finished his or her race, then yes, that individual is 'always saved'. If, however, you simply mean someone had a conversion experience, then no dice. I've seen how that works. The conversion experience person will go through a period where he or she stumbles and has issues, and the OSAS crowd will cry, "Oh, that person had a 'false conversion'." LOL- whatever.

Odd how some consider them selves saved when they can easily look around and see this is not heaven.
Saying I won the race before the race is finished is a tad presumptuous.

 

[BobRyan]

Put simply -- OSAS does not survive the sola scriptura test.

One simple example in Matt 18 that is spelled out in detail in Ezek 18.

Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

It's important to rightly divide The Word of Truth.

This passage identifies an unbeliever and a counterfeit.

How can a carnal man show God's mercy unless he has experienced mercy ?

A man is merciful because God's mercy has changed his heart to be so.

In the text above the point is NOT "hey -- I never forgave you your debt so no wonder you never forgive anyone else. You had no basis for it - sine you never experienced forgiveness yourself. So of course I did not expect you to forgive others - but rather to not forgive others just as I did not forgive you".

As much as the OSAS solution for Matt 18 would like to have inserted such notions - the text actually makes the OPPOSITE point!

I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

The salient point in the Matt 18 accusation against the unforgiving servant must be ignored/deleted or else stood on its head - to get OSAS to survive the text.

You post makes that clear.

Did you intend to do that?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

j

One form of the argument here (so far) that promotes OSAS says that since we are doomed to non-stop sinning even as saints -- non-stop rebellion against the Law of God every second -- then it makes no sense to argue that some special sin has caused us to "Fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ" - the way Paul says in Gal 5:4.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't agree it is used as an excuse for sin except for some kooks. Most of the OSAS belief strive to live closer to God. I think most would simply say God isn't finished with them yet.
It's just a mindset taught by Calvin that some have latched onto.
It's no more such than the free will crowd saying God can't tell me what to do. Both are extremes that almost none believe but opponents mislead with.

 

[BobRyan]

No amount of performances are going to make anyone sinless Bob. Not even for a nano-second.

That would leave you stuck in the sacred-sin vs profane-sin error with saints doomed to non-stop-sinning every second.

1John 5:1-4 does not allow it.

1John 2:1 does not allow it.

Rev 14:12 does not allow it.

Romans 8:5-8 does not allow it.

And worst of all - 1Cor 10 makes this an issue about the "Faithfulness of God" that is being doubted when one lays claim to "nonstop sinning".

The non-stop sinning doctrine has no room for 1Cor 10 and its appeal to "the faithfulness of God"

1 Cor 10
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

And it has no room for Romans 6.

If you're claiming your 'legal performances' have made you sinless, even for a brief period of time Bob, just say so.

s

My claim is that the doctrine I hold to has to pass the sola scriptura test. And if the only "solution" for a given tradition is to ignore the texts that refute it - well that is a proof that the tradition in question -- is questionable.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Mama Kidogo]

My claim is that the doctrine I hold to has to pass the sola scriptura test. And if the only "solution" for a given tradition is to ignore the texts that refute it - well that is a proof that the tradition in question -- is questionable.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you take things to the extreme side of which nearly no one resides.
You believe the writings of EW. So you are not sola scriptura. You have a tradition. The tradition of following the writings of a prophetess and viewing scripture through that lens.

And Imagine that. I said all that without saying doing so was wrong. But I admit my lip is sore from biting it.

 

[BobRyan]

It's a matter of timing. If by 'once saved' you mean that the believer in question endured in the faith until the end of their life and finished his or her race, then yes, that individual is 'always saved'. If, however, you simply mean someone had a conversion experience, then no dice. I've seen how that works. The conversion experience person will go through a period where he or she stumbles and has issues, and the OSAS crowd will cry, "Oh, that person had a 'false conversion'." LOL- whatever.

j

One form of the argument here (so far) that promotes OSAS says that since we are doomed to non-stop sinning even as saints -- non-stop rebellion against the Law of God every second -- then it makes no sense to argue that some special sin has caused us to "Fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ" - the way Paul says in Gal 5:4.
[/quote]

I don't agree it is used as an excuse for sin except for some kooks. Most of the OSAS belief strive to live closer to God. I think most would simply say God isn't finished with them yet.
It's just a mindset taught by Calvin that some have latched onto.
It's no more such than the free will crowd saying God can't tell me what to do. Both are extremes that almost none believe but opponents mislead with.

1. One very popular OSAS solution (the one most often posted on this thread) is once you are saved you can later live like the devil and still be saved because you did nothing to get saved and you can therefore do nothing to become lost. They don't say that necessarily because they "want" to live like the devil - but rather to get to the idea of "assurance" that can never be threatened by what you do.

Four point Calvinist hold to that idea religiously - and so also do the "sort of Arminians" that you find in the Baptist church holding to both the Arminian view of choice AND the doctrine of OSAS.

2. The other form of OSAS - very popular with 5 point Calvinists and 3 point Calvinists -- is that IF ten years from today you fail to persevere - then in fact you are lost not only ten years from today - but you are lost today. You never had salvation to start with if you are found to fall away ten years from today. (Chuck Swindoll, John MacArthur etc)

The OSAS argument always falls into one of those two camps.

I hold to the Arminian view that rejects OSAS (as do all 20 million or so Seventh-day Adventists) and so am closer to the Methodist view of free will - that rejects OSAS because the Bible does not support it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bottomofsandal]

Just because one loves God and his neighbor does not mean that person "is equal to God" -

Your dichotomy is that one either is God - or they do not love.

The Bible does not teach that.



speaking of which -

1 John 5:1-4
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not

You better put down your shovel, you are digging yourself a BIG hole !

Again, you have your scissors handy clipping out another proof text.



You like to talk about your obedience regarding what you avoid.

When it comes keeping the law of love, you are not so passionate.

Are you keeping all the commands of God ? Nope, not even close.



No one is righteous, not even one. You and I included.

Does our obedience make us righteous ? We have no righteousness.

Imputed righteousness in a jar of clay cannot obey all the time.

Flesh is contrary to Spirit, and Spirit is contrary to flesh.



You are in bondage to a pov that somehow believes that a sinful man in a sinful body can be holy, perfect, merciful, forgiving, and loving like God demands. Brief moments of sinless are admirable, but count for nothing. Even then it is God's grace working in us to accomplish His purpose.



Christ's perfect obedience, humility, and fulfilling of The Perfect Law of God can only benefit those IN Christ Jesus. Christ in us, the hope of glory, is doing His perfect work in us. We are only obedient and law abiding because He works in the believer. We are what we are by His grace, not our man-efforts.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you take things to the extreme side of which nearly no one resides.
You believe the writings of EW. So you are not sola scriptura.

I define sola scriptura to mean that all doctrine must stand or fall by the test of scripture alone. I don't use the messages God gave Ellen White to test doctrine - as can be demonstrated on every post I make on every thread - no matter the subject.

The only time I quote from her material is when someone here wants to make a claim that she said this-or-that and has either no-quote or an out of context quote.

So then "sola scriptura" is not solo-scriptura.

I freely admit to both tradition and inspired writings mentioned in the Bible that come from non-Bible authors. The NT is filled with references to prophets - NT prophets - but almost none of them provide a 'book in the Bible".

So -- when I test the OSAS doctrine "sola scriptura" I am using the exact same method I would use for any of my own denomination's doctrine - to prove it or disprove it.

I had some Mormon missionaries stop by the house for Bible studies and I asked them a simple question "if you had to choose between the Bible and some Seventh-day Adventist doctrine -- which would you choose?" -- and obviously they said they would choose the Bible.

I then answered "so would I --and that is why the study of Mormon doctrine in my home will have to allow the sola scriptura test of it - because I do that with my own denomination -- how much more so yours".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
No text says that "Failure to be God is sin".

Wrong. God is Love.

Failure to love (be like God) is sin

Just because one loves God and his neighbor does not mean that person "is equal to God" -

Your dichotomy is that one either is God - or they do not love.

The Bible does not teach that.



speaking of which -

1 John 5:1-4
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not

And of course many texts such as that show up here.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-54/#post65915303


The Bible is a good thing - even when it contradicts the man-made tradition of OSAS. [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][/FONT]

You better put down your shovel, you are digging yourself a BIG hole !

Again, you have your scissors handy clipping out another proof text.

You like to talk about your obedience regarding what you avoid.

When it comes keeping the law of love, you are not so passionate.

Are you keeping all the commands of God ? .

John speaks to the subject of "keeping the Commandments of God" as the way by which "we know" that we love God and are the children of God.

And this is the very point you are opposing - as the text is quoted.

Why do that?

The Bible does not allow the false dichotomy of "either sin every second or else work you own way to heaven without Christ".

The Bible model is always the 1John 5:1-4 and Romans 8:6-8 model that for the saved saint the Spirit of God enables obedience to the Commandments of God.

Romans 6 appears to be another key text your argument carefully avoids because it exactly contradicts it.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 6:12[/FONT]
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you belong to a church that hold to your form of OSAS - I have a question for you - how many times did they show you how to get OSAS to survive the text of Romans 6??

zero? do you have any notes at all from them on that?

Or did they solve the problem by either ignoring the text - or glossing over it? And if they did that - they provided no help to you at all in a discussion like this. I would ask them about it if I were you. They may have some material to solve the problem for OSAS.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Mama Kidogo]

j

One form of the argument here (so far) that promotes OSAS says that since we are doomed to non-stop sinning even as saints -- non-stop rebellion against the Law of God every second -- then it makes no sense to argue that some special sin has caused us to "Fall from grace" and be "severed from Christ" - the way Paul says in Gal 5:4.

1. One very popular OSAS solution (the one most often posted on this thread) is once you are saved you can later live like the devil and still be saved because you did nothing to get saved and you can therefore do nothing to become lost. They don't say that necessarily because they "want" to live like the devil - but rather to get to the idea of "assurance" that can never be threatened by what you do.

Four point Calvinist hold to that idea religiously - and so also do the "sort of Arminians" that you find in the Baptist church holding to both the Arminian view of choice AND the doctrine of OSAS.

2. The other form of OSAS - very popular with 5 point Calvinists and 3 point Calvinists -- is that IF ten years from today you fail to persevere - then in fact you are lost not only ten years from today - but you are lost today. You never had salvation to start with if you are found to fall away ten years from today. (Chuck Swindoll, John MacArthur etc)

The OSAS argument always falls into one of those two camps.

I hold to the Arminian view that rejects OSAS (as do all 20 million or so Seventh-day Adventists) and so am closer to the Methodist view of free will - that rejects OSAS because the Bible does not support it.

in Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]

Please point to a post that speaks of what you've written in #1. I may have missed it.I have read no one say you can sin all you want.
Like you I reject OSAS. But I take it a step beyond that, I reject Calvinism and the five solas. To many onlys spoil the word only and make it not only at all.
To honestly be scripture only one needs to toss out faith. To be faith alone one need to ignore scripture. To be grace only one needs to ignore works. It's all these things together with Christ not one only.
To believe OSAS one needs to twist scripture to fit it. To believe our will is stronger than God's (Free will) one needs to twist scripture to fit it.
Better to conform our will to be like His will and even to deny our will over that of God's.
If we are Christ's our will does not overshadow His. We are bought and belong to him. His servant to do his will. That is, if we are indeed His.He can and does affect our will. No man comes to the Father unless he is drawn.

 

[BobRyan]

Please point to a post that speaks of what you've written in #1. I may have missed it.I have read no one say you can sin all you want.
.

Have you read posts that say that you must sin every second -- that you cannot go one second without sinning even as a child of God?

I have a few here saying that on this thread if you want the links -- I will provide a few.

. No one performs themselves sinless, period. There is no 'when we sin' measure. Sin indwells us

Continual sinning, every day, all the time

in that case Romans 3 is edited "all HAVE sinned and fall short" to "all continually sin and fall short".


In Christ,

Bob

 

[The Outlier]

There is a difference between eternal security and OSAS.

Eternal security is not constantly worrying about losing your salvation. If we are doing everything we can to be right with God, its a non-issue. Everyone sins. There is no one alive today on this earth who does not sin. Even the Pope sins.

OSAS is the idea that if you are saved now you were always saved and always be saved. It, like Eternal security has some basis in Calvinism, but it has more of it. I've been in and out of Baptist churches all my life and I am not a big believer in OSAS. We are saved if our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Not everyone who is a professing Christian now is going to heaven. Some will walk away because their faith had a limit or because they weren't really serious in the first place.

We are to be holy for sure- that's all through the Bible. But we are saved by Grace. If we have no priority in our lives to be holy, that's when we should start worrying about our salvation. Repentance produces fruit.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Have you read posts that say that you must sin every second -- that you cannot go one second without sinning even as a child of God?

I have a few here saying that on this thread if you want the links -- I will provide a few.


In Christ,

Bob

Yes I read one directed to you that said that. I did not read it saying it was fine or excusable to do so. I also disagree with that post. I can go a nano second without sinning. I do sleep.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes I read one directed to you that said that. I did not read it saying it was fine or excusable to do so. I also disagree with that post. I can go a nano second without sinning. I do sleep.

And you pray and you praise God in worship etc. not every waking breathing moment is rebellion.

by contrast we had.

. No one performs themselves sinless, period. There is no 'when we sin' measure. Sin indwells us

Continual sinning, every day, all the time

in that case Romans 3 is edited "all HAVE sinned and fall short" to "all continually sin and fall short".

 

[BobRyan]

There is a difference between eternal security and OSAS.

OSAS is simply the way some hope to adopt eternal security.

And you have to hand it to the 4 point Calvinists and the Baptist Arminians they have bullet proof eternal security when the say you can live like the devil ten years from today's conversion and you are saved no matter what.

But the 3 and 5 point Calvinists have a problem because today's assurance is "retro-deleted" in the form of OSAS they hold to -- if one fails to persevere ten years from today.

by contrast the consistent Arminian model is 100% able to provide assurance for today that you are saved - but it cannot predict you will remain saved ten years from today. It cannot predict that you will persevere 10 years from today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Mama Kidogo]

There is a difference between eternal security and OSAS.

Eternal security is not constantly worrying about losing your salvation. If we are doing everything we can to be right with God, its a non-issue. Everyone sins. There is no one alive today on this earth who does not sin. Even the Pope sins.

OSAS is the idea that if you are saved now you were always saved and always be saved. It, like Eternal security has some basis in Calvinism, but it has more of it. I've been in and out of Baptist churches all my life and I am not a big believer in OSAS. We are saved if our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Not everyone who is a professing Christian now is going to heaven. Some will walk away because their faith had a limit or because they weren't really serious in the first place.

We are to be holy for sure- that's all through the Bible. But we are saved by Grace. If we have no priority in our lives to be holy, that's when we should start worrying about our salvation. Repentance produces fruit.

Good post. My issue with both calvinism and free will is that they put God into a neatly packaged box. Meaning both limit God to our rules making Him flawed and helpless to go beyond our understanding of him. Neither is 100% wrong or right. While God does not act out of character, He can and does act outside of the character we have created for Him. Some say he's a gentleman but that ignore scripture. Some say he's a control freak but that also goes against scripture. While all good Christians seek intimacy with God none alive on earth have done more than express that desire. Our reward comes after our judgement. Yes he has wooed us but He has not consummated the relationship with his bride. The Bridegroom has not yet returned. At that point we can and will have full and complete assurance.
I note your faith icon indicates Baptist. So I take you to the last book in the Baptist's bible. Christ instructed John to write to the leaders of the seven churches. He wrote the same words to each; To he that overcomes. Let's overcome before we get too sure of ourselves. Those letters were not written to what a baptist calls the unsaved. They were written to what Christ calls the church.Christ is clear that he can and will take away their light if they don't overcome. He tells us we can forget our first love. And just like we all know, not every virgin planning to remain a virgin until she's married manages to do so. Some fall for the deceptions.
I have an assurance. Mine is that Christ is faithful. to do just what he said. both the promises and the warnings.