Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Erose]

We've had this dialog before. None of the above takes place in a vacuum. There are other parties involved. The same parties we deal with too. That would be the blinding and binding power of Satan.

The scenario y'all play is to trounce the fallen prior faithful, even though we all still sin. Particularly in this way because it's hyprocrisy.

We commit the fallen past believers to eternal torture in fire for their sins while we are yet sinners. And we may very well be contributing to the decline of the faith in such ripe hypocrisy.

Even unbelievers see the hypocrisy of the churches.



Anyway you spin it exactly zero of us have stopped sinning. The instant we say we have no sin we then add lying to the mixture. It's one of the most potent destructive brews in all of believerdom. To sit in that stew is an abomination that many will not partake of or participate in.

And the more we deny it, the more fallen religious leaders are trotted out for examples and more shady transactions are unearthed 'in the church.'

Honesty. The Best Policy.

s

So one question for you then. When you commit sins to you confess them, and ask God to forgive you, and then strive to no longer commit those sins?

 

[squint]

So one question for you then. When you commit sins to you confess them, and ask God to forgive you, and then strive to no longer commit those sins?

I understand one primary thing about sin, that it is of the devil.

I doubt the devil is much interested if at all in not sinning.

Disassociation is the best form of repentance, the requirement being continual.

Am I going to provide you or anyone else with the intimacies of deception with my personal battles? Uh, no. I don't give that bad actor that much breathing room.

My quest is to find the fatal blow unto the adversary. Not make 'him' behave as that is not going to happen.

s

 

[Erose]

Notice how the disciples asked, "who then can be saved"? No one can be saved without a blood atonement. Prior to Jesus, a lamb sacrifice was needed for the remission of sins. However, Jesus became the Lamb of God, the sacrificial lamb. In Him, we have forgiveness.

Amen. No one here I think is refuting that point. One thing though that I would add to your point here is don't forget about His resurrection. Jesus' resurrection is just as important as His death when it comes to our atonement. St. Paul made that very clear when he wrote:

Rom 6: [3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Col 2: [11] In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: [12] Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead. [13] And you, when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; he hath quickened together with him, forgiving you all offences: [14] Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross: [15] And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open shew, triumphing over them in himself.

You see, due to the sinful nature of man, we are going to sin and even break the commandments. This, I believe, is why the disciples asked who could be saved, as to expect yourself to never break the commandments in order to be saved is impossible. We aren't perfect like Jesus. We are born with a sinful nature.

Me I prefer the term fallen nature. Humanity wasn't created sinful, since Genesis is very clear that humanity was very good. We are in the state of a fallen nature, thus we are less than what we should be, damaged goods. That is the reason that Christ returned, was to restore our nature, and our positive relationship with God.

You are right that we are all sinners, but you forget that God has given us the ability that after our baptism, when we sin, we can come to Him with a humble and contrite heart and He will forgive us as it says in St. John's first letter: 1: [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

That is also why He gave the Church the Sacrament of Reconciliation when He breath upon the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins in His Name: Jn 20: [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

He did this so that when we do fall from grace, we are not doomed; but that we can be restored to His friendship.

One thing though that usually gets lost in the mix and hardly ever discussed, is that we are called to go and sin no more. When Jesus forgave the Adulteress, what did He say to her? I have forgiven you so you can go back to your adulterous ways? No! He said :Go and sin no more.

The life of a Christian should be a life dedicated first to breaking the chains of sin off our backs. God gives us abundant grace to do this, as St James states that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond our means. How do we do this? We take the grace that God gave us and we use it, we must tribe each day everyday to overcome our evil inclinations, what we Catholics call concupiscience. It isn't going to be over night, unless God heals us of a certain sinful inclination, because He knows we cannot endure that sinful inclination. But the rest we must strive daily to overcome. God has given us the power to do so, if just surrender to Him, and accept His help.

I also believe that in the gospel of John, Jesus may have been speaking about a heart or lifestyle that honors to keep the commandments, not that you will never slip up and break the commandments. After all, comparing it to Matthew, it is made clear that if it were up to keeping the commandments, all of us would fall short. This is why a blood sacrifice was necessary before Jesus death and resurrection. The blood was a purification of sin. After Jesus death on the cross and resurrection, that sacrifice has been paid through belief, repentance, and acceptance of the Lord, Jesus Christ. The sacrificial Lamb of God has paid it all. This is why Jesus came to this world to make the ultimate sacrifice.

Amen! We are in full agreement here, except for the bolded part, which I am not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify that statement a little better?

 

[BobRyan]

Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved,

Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and 20 million or so Seventh-day Adventists -- all agree to some extent that the Bible is correct on this subject and that the man-made Calvinist tradition of osas is simply a flawed tradition.

Romans 11 points to the loss of salvation clearly as does Ezek 18 as does Matt 18 as does Matt 6 as does 1Cor 6 as does Gal 5:4 as do many other texts in scripture.

(Not sure if Free Will Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists have both figured out that the Bible does not support OSAS -- does anyone here know the answer to that?)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[squint]

Romans 11 points to the loss of salvation clearly as does Ezek 18 as does Matt 18 as does Matt 6 as does 1Cor 6 as does Gal 5:4 as do many other texts in scripture.

None of the above citings make the claims you are making they claim and in fact Romans 11 (in particular vs. 25-32) makes an exact opposite conclusion, that unbelieving enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to unbelieving Israel shall all be saved. Which should make any accurate reader sit up and take notice of how their own doctrines conspire directly against that fact of scripture and are directly opposed to same.

 

[Erose]

I understand one primary thing about sin, that it is of the devil.

I doubt the devil is much interested if at all in not sinning.

one thing you have to careful of here is that sin is a result of disobedience. When we sin it is on us. We did it, not the devil. He can tempt us yes, but he can't make us sin. That is on us.

Temptation comes to us from within and without, though our friends and family, though our interactions, television, billboards, internet. Temptations are everywhere.

Disassociation is the best form of repentance, the requirement being continual.

No the best form of repentance is on our knees. Begging for God's forgiveness, and striving to sin no more.

Am I going to provide you or anyone else with the intimacies of deception with my personal battles? Uh, no. I don't give that bad actor that much breathing room.

You know I once thought this way. When I was younger I dealt with some pretty bad and shameful temptations, and didn't want anyone to know about them. But after becoming Catholic and after the terror of the first confession, I found that it was really quite liberating to tell someone my sin. To get it off my chest, and then afterwards hearing those most beautiful words: You are forgiven.

It is also a great deterrent as well. When I am being faced with a temptation, I have to think, do I really want to tell a priest I did this?

My quest is to find the fatal blow unto the adversary. Not make 'him' behave as that is not going to happen.

s

like I said your quest should begin on your knees.

 

[Erose]

Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and 20 million or so Seventh-day Adventists -- all agree to some extent that the Bible is correct on this subject and that the man-made Calvinist tradition of osas is simply a flawed tradition.

Romans 11 points to the loss of salvation clearly as does Ezek 18 as does Matt 18 as does Matt 6 as does 1Cor 6 as does Gal 5:4 as do many other texts in scripture.

(Not sure if Free Will Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists have both figured out that the Bible does not support OSAS -- does anyone here know the answer to that?)

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, just curious here are Adventist Arminian, or do you guys have a different belief. And if so, is there somewhere on the internet that I can go to read what your views are?

Concerning Free-Will Baptists, I do believe they are Arminian. Don't know nothing about the other Baptist group.

 

[squint]

one thing you have to careful of here is that sin is a result of disobedience. When we sin it is on us. We did it, not the devil. He can tempt us yes, but he can't make us sin. That is on us.

That is your opinion. It is not the presentation of The Word.

I could cite you reams of scripture with the exact opposite conclusion that you present.

Truly one would have to be nearly blind when reading the Gospels NOT to see the fact that Satan and mankind are presently overlapped. And, having made this observation with you prior and you still not seeing it, what can I say? To me it so obvious it only amazes me that it isn't seen.

To see man alone is worthless sight. Yet that is the presentation that most of orthodoxy presents. They only want to blame and accuse mankind. And that says enough for me to reject that angle on the basis of inaccuracy.

Temptation comes to us from within and without, though our friends and family, though our interactions, television, billboards, internet. Temptations are everywhere.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the response you are trying to provide because it is a hallmark of denial. Everything BUT the devil.

There is so much written evidence in the scriptures that present again an opposite view of your intentions it would bury you, but you still would not be able to see it because that is the way God has set up the system.

No the best form of repentance is on our knees. Begging for God's forgiveness, and striving to sin no more.

You can beg all you please. Not one whit of it is going to make anyone sinless.

Now, go justify condemning other sinning believers who no longer believe in your magistrates opinions and are now unbelievers to possible hell.

I detest such activity as demonic.

s

 

[Albion]

Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and 20 million or so Seventh-day Adventists -- all agree to some extent that the Bible is correct on this subject and that the man-made Calvinist tradition of osas is simply a flawed tradition.

So what? SDA's consider Roman Catholicism to be the source and dispenser of almost everything that's wrong in the history of Christianity, but when it comes to making Adventism seem mainline it helps to count the RCC as being your church's comrade-in-arms.

 

[Erose]

That is your opinion. It is not the presentation of The Word.

Nope don't have an opinion on this matter. Opinions on subjects that are quite literally life and death, is not in my opinion very smart to have.

I could cite you reams of scripture with the exact opposite conclusion that you present.

Please do. Please show me in Scripture where it states that "Satan made me do it."

Truly one would have to be nearly blind when reading the Gospels NOT to see the fact that Satan and mankind are presently overlapped. And, having made this observation with you prior and you still not seeing it, what can I say? To me it so obvious it only amazes me that it isn't seen.

Now you are reading out of more than what I said. I said nothing that would lead to the conclusion that I don't believe there is a devil. In all honesty, I knew of the existence of the Devil long before I knew the existence of God. Does the devil or demons tempt oh heavens yes they do. Diabolical temptation is nothing to sniff at. I know that from personal experience.

What I am saying He and they are not the only tempters. St. John speaks of three forms on concupiscience in his first letter chapter 2: [16] For all that is in the world, is the concupiscence of the flesh, and the concupiscence of the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but is of the world. Our greatest and hardest temptations usually come from within or without, whether it is lust, anger, gluttony, greed, envy, pride, or sloth.

My point is this. Temptations come from multiple sources, demons are only one. And all temptations must be battled, every single day. And God gives sufficient grace to overcome. But if we fall, as St. John said: confess you sins and God will have mercy.

To see man alone is worthless sight. Yet that is the presentation that most of orthodoxy presents. They only want to blame and accuse mankind. And that says enough for me to reject that angle on the basis of inaccuracy.

You are wrong. The orthodox view of man is one of hope. That even though we are sinners and deserve death or worse; God did not leave us without hope. He did not leave us without a Way. Our Lord Jesus came and gave us a map of the Way: Believe in Him, be baptized, keep His Commandments, Love God with our whole beings, love our neighbor as ourselves; love one another as He has loved us, partake in His Table, pray, fast, give, etc. And after giving us this Way, He gave us helpers most particularly His own Spirit, His Church, our guardian angels, our brethren in Christ (both here on earth and in heaven), the Sacraments, etc.

And what does that get you? Hope.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the response you are trying to provide because it is a hallmark of denial. Everything BUT the devil.

Not my intent. The devil and his demons are there, but he and they are not the only enemies that are on the battlefield.

There is so much written evidence in the scriptures that present again an opposite view of your intentions it would bury you, but you still would not be able to see it because that is the way God has set up the system.

Then provide them. I am the only one here that is quoting Scripture.

You can beg all you please. Not one whit of it is going to make anyone sinless.

It is a start. The first step to overcoming sin is humility. The realization that we can't do this on our own. That we need God, and our brethren to overcome our temptations. Pride is called the prince of vices for a reason.

Now, go justify condemning other sinning believers who no longer believe in your magistrates opinions and are now unbelievers to possible hell.

I don't condemn anyone. Not here not ever. That isn't my place. Judging others is quite frankly dangerous business, as Jesus has warned us that by the rule that we judge, by that same rule we will be judged. I'm not going there.

I detest such activity as demonic.

Jesus did warn about this occurring.

 

[Erose]

So what? SDA's consider Roman Catholicism to be the source and dispenser of almost everything that's wrong in the history of Christianity, but when it comes to making Adventism seem mainline it helps to count the RCC as being your church's comrade-in-arms.

RobRyan isn't your average Adventist that we see here, and you know that. Please try not to goad him. We should celebrate those things we have in common.

 

[squint]

Nope don't have an opinion on this matter.

Of course you do. Even though it's given to you by other men.

Opinions on subjects that are quite literally life and death, is not in my opinion very smart to have.

You see death. That is an opinionated sight.

Please do. Please show me in Scripture where it states that "Satan made me do it."

Again, that is your own reading bias entering the picture.

When Satan spoke from Peters lips Satan did not make Peter do it. Satan did it and Satan spoke. I don't 'lay the blame' on Peter because there was obviously a totally different entity in play IN PETER.

Now you are reading out of more than what I said. I said nothing that would lead to the conclusion that I don't believe there is a devil. In all honesty, I knew of the existence of the Devil long before I knew the existence of God. Does the devil or demons tempt oh heavens yes they do. Diabolical temptation is nothing to sniff at. I know that from personal experience.

Then why don't you recognize that evil thoughts are defiling (including temptation) and are in fact demonically originated and even more, that we ALL are subject to that intrusion? At that point of recognition there is no longer any use to not factor that other party.

What I am saying He and they are not the only tempters. St. John speaks of three forms on concupiscience in his first letter chapter 2: [16] For all that is in the world, is the concupiscence of the flesh, and the concupiscence of the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but is of the world. Our greatest and hardest temptations usually come from within or without, whether it is lust, anger, gluttony, greed, envy, pride, or sloth.

John also stated that sin is of the devil. (1 John 3:8) Paul had a devil in his own flesh. (2 Cor. 12:7) had evil present with him, (Romans 7:17-21) and termed himself the chief of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15) so it's not like the observation is without precedent.

My point is this. Temptations come from multiple sources, demons are only one. And all temptations must be battled, every single day.

None of which is without demonic influence internally. The progression of sin is from thought to word and ultimately to deed. But in every step it's all demonic and NONE avoid it regardless of their religious begging and groveling.

And God gives sufficient grace to overcome. But if we fall, as St. John said: confess you sins and God will have mercy.

None were made sinless (in this present life,) period.

It is a start. The first step to overcoming sin is humility.

Overcoming meaning what? That we lie to ourselves about the fact of being sinners? Hardly a credible avenue.

I don't condemn anyone.

You think the argument is God does, not you? The fact is that is only what you think you see and you obviously missed a major component in sin including the sin of unbelief in fallen believers.

Unbelief is a sin, sin is of the devil and the devil does in fact BLIND people to the Gospel. We all start out blinded in this way by SATAN.

Why any of you condemn fallen/blinded believers when they are victims of a blinding force who was MADE TO BLIND them by God is testimony enough of where that effort originated from.

Their sin is in fact not one whit different than any others sin. There isn't going to be a 'sin scale' at the judgement. The fact is we are all guilty and we were not alone in doing so.

s

 

[Erose]

Of course you do. Even though it's given to you by other men.

You see death. That is an opinionated sight.
Again, that is your own reading bias entering the picture.

When Satan spoke from Peters lips Satan did not make Peter do it. Satan did it and Satan spoke. I don't 'lay the blame' on Peter because there was obviously a totally different entity in play IN PETER.
Then why don't you recognize that evil thoughts are defiling (including temptation) and are in fact demonically originated and even more, that we ALL are subject to that intrusion? At that point of recognition there is no longer any use to not factor that other party.

John also stated that sin is of the devil. (1 John 3:8) Paul had a devil in his own flesh. (2 Cor. 12:7) had evil present with him, (Romans 7:17-21) and termed himself the chief of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15) so it's not like the observation is without precedent.

None of which is without demonic influence internally. The progression of sin is from thought to word and ultimately to deed. But in every step it's all demonic and NONE avoid it regardless of their religious begging and groveling.


None were made sinless (in this present life,) period.

Overcoming meaning what? That we lie to ourselves about the fact of being sinners? Hardly a credible avenue.
You think the argument is God does, not you? The fact is that is only what you think you see and you obviously missed a major component in sin including the sin of unbelief in fallen believers.

Unbelief is a sin, sin is of the devil and the devil does in fact BLIND people to the Gospel. We all start out blinded in this way by SATAN.

Why any of you condemn fallen/blinded believers when they are victims of a blinding force who was MADE TO BLIND them by God is testimony enough of where that effort originated from.

Their sin is in fact not one whit different than any others sin. There isn't going to be a 'sin scale' at the judgement. The fact is we are all guilty and we were not alone in doing so.

s

Squint, I am pulling out of this conversation with you. It has ceased to be fruitful, and I won't get into a "your of the devil; no you are" back and forth with you. There is simply no charity in such actions. I pray that we will see each other one day in heaven. And I look for to other debates with you here. But this one has kinda dried up.

 

[Erose]

I will leave with this from Ezekiel chapter 18:

1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
10 “If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.
14 “If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor[a]
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
18 “As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Turn and Live

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

 

[squint]

Squint, I am pulling out of this conversation with you. It has ceased to be fruitful, and I won't get into a "your of the devil; no you are" back and forth with you. There is simply no charity in such actions. I pray that we will see each other one day in heaven. And I look for to other debates with you here. But this one has kinda dried up.

Said what should be said. Fine with me.

We'll leave how charitable the comparisons are with the end result of the respective views.

s

 

[Albion]

Can a believer fall back into the clutches of Satan and be blinded again in this present life? Of course. Happens all the time for various reasons. That still doesn't mean Christ abandoned them or will burn them alive forever. Are such then completely blind? Not usually. I know a lot of believers who claim they no longer believe but Jesus seems to keep nagging them internally anyway.

A point well worth making. Superficial thinkers and those who are out to deliberately misrepresent the matter often insist that any slip-up committed by a saved person instantly eradicates his standing with God. That's the Medieval mind speaking--saved by the sacraments, lost it all by a sin, go to confession, now God likes you again, whoops....another sin and you're on your way to Hell regardless of what you were during the whole of the rest of your life, etc. But it's not what the Bible teaches. God is faithful through it all.

 

[squint]

A point well worth making. Superficial thinkers and those who are out to deliberately misrepresent the matter often insist that any slip-up committed by a saved person instantly eradicates his standing with God. That's the Medieval mind speaking--saved by the sacraments, lost it all by a sin, go to confession, now God likes you again, whoops....another sin and you're on your way to Hell regardless of what you were during the whole of the rest of your life, etc. But it's not what the Bible teaches. God is faithful through it all.

Indeed. But then again the non-OSAS adherents really are not all that sure they have salvation anyway. It can only be a 'maybe' and at best 'reasonably assured' based on their most recent performances.

I did think it was entertaining that one of the non-OSAS respondents was absolutely sure of his own salvation though, which is a common response of those who seek to denigrate the salvation of others.

 

[Albion]

Indeed. But then again the non-OSAS adherents really are not all that sure they have salvation anyway. It can only be a 'maybe' and at best 'reasonably assured' based on their most recent performances.

Interesting point. While they believe that their salvation is in serious jeopardy of being lost at any moment in their lives, they actually are offended that other Christians trust God to be faithful--as Jesus assured his disciples they should do.

I did think it was entertaining that one of the non-OSAS respondents was absolutely sure of his own salvation though, which is a common response of those who seek to denigrate the salvation of others.

I know. They don't know what their own church teaches, but they'll defend it to the end.

 

[BobRyan]

Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved,

Methodists, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and 20 million or so Seventh-day Adventists -- all agree to some extent that the Bible is correct on this subject and that the man-made Calvinist tradition of osas is simply a flawed tradition.

Romans 11 points to the loss of salvation clearly as does Ezek 18 as does Matt 18 as does Matt 6 as does 1Cor 6 as does Gal 5:4 as do many other texts in scripture.

(Not sure if Free Will Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists have both figured out that the Bible does not support OSAS -- does anyone here know the answer to that?)

So what? SDA's consider Roman Catholicism to be the source and dispenser of almost everything that's wrong

Just because the RCC is wrong on some points does not mean it has to be wrong on every point.

my guess is that even you know they teach that Christ was born of a virgin and was bodily resurrected on week day 1.

Proof that they do get some points right -- I thought everyone was up to par on this basic debate principle and in fact this forms the entire basis for the CF discussion. It is why they can happen at all.

Surely this is not "news".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed. But then again the non-OSAS adherents really are not all that sure they have salvation anyway. .

That is straw man speculation and is refuted easily from the Arminian POV. Arminians can know for certain that they are saved today but cannot know for certain that they will choose to remain saved ten years from today.

The OSAS Christian cannot even know that - because under OSAS they often teach that they must retro delete today's assurance if ten years from today they give up the faith and choose to live like the devil.

in Christ,

Bob