Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Albion]

Do you think anyone here reads a post that looks like that...and comes with no explanation?

 

[Setyoufree]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, http://www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/hebrews/6.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-bto renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame

 

[Setyoufree]

Do you think anyone here reads a post that looks like that?

I think some folks will find any excuse to believe a lie.....

 

[Setyoufree]

Heb 10:10 And by that will (Christ's doing & dying), we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

There's your assurance. You are holy in Christ.....You have this by faith. Now, hold onto it....

23 Let us hold on unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 If we deliberately commit sin (the sin of abandoning Christ) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[squint]

Yes...grace is by faith and as long as you are under the umbrella of faith you stand saved....

BUT, if you abandon your faith you go back under the curse. Who says? Paul time and time again.....

There is no BUT. There is not one single instance where a named N.T. christian is shown to be eternally lost. Not one.

The position is non-existent by example.

Can a believer fall back into the clutches of Satan and be blinded again in this present life? Of course. Happens all the time for various reasons. That still doesn't mean Christ abandoned them or will burn them alive forever. Are such then completely blind? Not usually. I know a lot of believers who claim they no longer believe but Jesus seems to keep nagging them internally anyway.

There is also written record of unbelievers being saved in the N.T. Romans 11:25-32 is a great example of enemies of the Gospel being SAVED as it pertains to blinded Israel who shall ALL be saved.

s

 

[MoreCoffee]

What's with all these gigantic words? Is somebody afraid that if their words are normal size nobody will notice how important they are? I think that if you need to make them big to prove how important they are then they are probably not important at all.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What's with all these gigantic words? Is somebody afraid that if their words are normal size nobody will notice how important they are? I think that if you need to make them bog to prove his important they are then they are probably not important at all.

My thought, precisely.

 

[Setyoufree]

What's with all these gigantic words? Is somebody afraid that if their words are normal size nobody will notice how important they are? I think that if you need to make them big to prove how important they are then they are probably not important at all.

IT's for the blind folks who claim they have eye sight.....

 

[Setyoufree]

There is not one single instance where a named N.T. christian is shown to be eternally lost. Not one.

Paul's intent was to warn, not to name names....IF no one could be lost Paul wouldn't have warned. Your point is moot.....

 

[Setyoufree]

The position is non-existent by example.

That's a poor, poor argument. It's also ridiculous.

 

[Setyoufree]

Can a believer fall back into the clutches of Satan and be blinded again in this present life? Of course. Happens all the time for various reasons.

That's backsliding....I'm not addressing that. I'm writing about premeditated apostasy, which is falling from grace.

There are two dictches that can cause a believer to become lost:

One is legalism:
​

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

The other is cheap grace (living for the flesh as a lifestyle):
​

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law (the curse). 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Erose]

No, you've told us your opinion. You haven't cited one verse of scripture.

See post 160. Not my words, Christ's words.

But we're not talking about "living for Him". We're talking about how one is saved.

Exactly. That is the problem here. You don't believe "living for Him" is a requirement. So "living for Him" in your salvation model is optional. My Bible says otherwise.

I agree. That's why I've been a very vocal and consistent critic of that practice.

Ok. But in the OSAS theology, it is still an option is it not?

But it's also equally untrue and Unbiblical that we have to perform works to be saved or to maintain salvation.

Question answered.

 

[Erose]

By not having been taught that you need to know what to have faith in.

I knew at 3&1/2 yrs old. By 4yrs old, I knew it enough that it couldn't be intimidated out of me.

Try listening to creation. Psalm 119 gives instructions.

So if you were on an island by yourself from birth, with absolutely no outside influence, would you from creation learn of Jesus and His death and resurrection?

 

[NorrinRadd]

What's with all these gigantic words? Is somebody afraid that if their words are normal size nobody will notice how important they are? I think that if you need to make them big to prove how important they are then they are probably not important at all.

Imagine that in a live conversation. The "speaker" would be angrily yelling and flailing and gesticulating. No one would continue to engage him. The only reason people would pay attention would be to determine whether he needed psychiatric attention.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Imagine that in a live conversation. The "speaker" would be angrily yelling and flailing and gesticulating. No one would continue to engage him. The only reason people would pay attention would be to determine whether he needed psychiatric attention.

It's fortunate that this is a text forum; I wonder if reading software for the blind would shout when huge letters were encountered (I hope not).

 

[Erose]

Yeah. And it's also unbiblical to say that we MUST "do" or "not do" certain things in order to retain salvation.

So everything is biblical, and everything is unbiblical.

It is? I find throughout all of Scripture including the NT, statements that include what we "must do" or "not do".

Jn 3: [5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jn 6: [54]Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Mat 19: [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mk 16: [16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

 

[Erose]

So, what about us Reformed believers, who don't believe there's any such thing as "accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior" and believe that justification is followed by a lifetime of sanctification?

This thread the last I checked is about OSAS. That is what we are discussing.

Do you really think that such straw men as you've presented help dispel the notion that Catholics cannot be trusted to represent Protestant beliefs honestly?

Again we are speaking of OSAS. We could not possibly hope to throw in the same basket all the variations of "sola fide" in one thread. I will not debate multiple versions. I will stick now with OSAS only. If you don't believe in OSAS, well then good for you, and I am not debating your position if OSAS isn't your position.

And a lifetime of works and sacraments and then, if you're lucky, you get to go to Purgatory to expiate your own sins.

Luck has nothing to do with it. Devotion and love and waking up every single day and picking up my cross and following Him. Striving to be obedient to Him, by surrendering my wants and desires for His.

Also we already had the conversation about the falsehood of your statement about those in purgatory expiating their own sins. Purgatory is a gift and work of God, not man.

 

[Erose]

Yes, and in John 6 He said that no actual "works" are necessary to obtain eternal life, only believing in Him. Paul taught that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works, and in Gal. 3 that we complete our salvation the way we began it -- not by works, but by believing what we heard. He taught that the entirety of the law of decrees, ordinances, commandments was abolished, nailed to the cross, hung on the tree.

The problem you are having here is that you are thinking that it has to be either/or instead of it being what it actually is both/and.

The parable of the vine given in John 12 is the best model of have justification works. We are grafted on the Vine which is Jesus. We don't graft ourselves on the Vine, the Father does that. We receive our substance from the Vine. Without the Vine we cannot produce fruit. Without the Vine we shrivel up and die. But we must abide on that Vine, and Jesus in the quote I provided explains how we stay attached to that Vine does He not? Keep the commandments.

 

[squint]

That's backsliding....I'm not addressing that. I'm writing about premeditated apostasy, which is falling from grace.

We've had this dialog before. None of the above takes place in a vacuum. There are other parties involved. The same parties we deal with too. That would be the blinding and binding power of Satan.

The scenario y'all play is to trounce the fallen prior faithful, even though we all still sin. Particularly in this way because it's hyprocrisy.

We commit the fallen past believers to eternal torture in fire for their sins while we are yet sinners. And we may very well be contributing to the decline of the faith in such ripe hypocrisy.

Even unbelievers see the hypocrisy of the churches.

There are two dictches that can cause a believer to become lost:

One is legalism:
​

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.The other is cheap grace (living for the flesh as a lifestyle):

Anyway you spin it exactly zero of us have stopped sinning. The instant we say we have no sin we then add lying to the mixture. It's one of the most potent destructive brews in all of believerdom. To sit in that stew is an abomination that many will not partake of or participate in.

And the more we deny it, the more fallen religious leaders are trotted out for examples and more shady transactions are unearthed 'in the church.'

Honesty. The Best Policy.

s

 

[squint]

Paul's intent was to warn, not to name names....IF no one could be lost Paul wouldn't have warned. Your point is moot.....That's a poor, poor argument. It's also ridiculous.

It's a fact that what y'all are spouting doesn't even exist in the scriptures.

Of course there is warning. We have an adversary here. That does not equate to eternal torture in fire for being taken by a more powerful adversary.

Even the criminal war machines on this planet treat their fallen better than christianity treats theirs.

And let's face another fact while we're at it. A lot of these so called 'fallen from faith' people are simply frustrated or disagree with various matters of christian sectarianism.

There are a lot of fallen from the faith in charismania or RCCism because they either saw it was a bunch of manipulating nonsense or they were stiffled by dead ritualism or whatever. And they have nowhere else to turn.

In many ways christianity is like a bunch of little kids who say 'if you don't belong to our gang we're gonna beat you up.'

Tossing people oh so casually to the eternal flames is an insane reaction. And that is yet another reason why the churches will continue with membership bleed out their doors.

s