Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[squint]

So you don't know what the second death is do you?

You are welcome not to translate inference to me, thank you.

Ok let us look at this just a little bit here. Do you seriously think that God is referring to people just physically living and dying?

People who are alive are dead in sin. People who are alive by the Spirit will also die a bodily death because of sin.

If that is the case, then he sure did waste His breath didn't He, since every person dies the physical death, both the just and the unjust.

Indeed. And we all do so because of sin.

And I would remind you that unbelief is also a SIN.

So with your understanding, we should just all be agnostics and live our lives the way we please.

Again, such leaps in false logic on your part do not logically follow my statements of fact.

If that is the case, sure was a lot of people who wasted a lot of time trying to spread the Gospel, since from your view point it really doesn't matter anyway.

What you are showing is justification bias. That being if your position is threatened a fantastic imaginary disruption is inferred, which is called a logical fallacy in discussion land.

s

 

[catholichomeschooler]

People who are alive are in fact 'dead' in sin. When we believe were are ALIVE even though our bodies will still DIE because of sin.

Again, nothing in the cited text provides any actual written examples of what you claim you see, specifically that believers who turn in unbelief will burn alive forever. Y'all can search the entire text and never even find one named individual scheduled for that fate. That is partly why even the orthodox leave that matter open. They provide for the possibility for prevailing Grace by doing so.

There are also several accounts of the exact opposite, that believers who turn into unbelievers and die and even enemies of the Gospel are saved (pertaining to unbelieving Israel, Romans 11:25:32)

I think the passage is quite clear that it is possible for a person to turn their back on God and their soul will die.

What do you think it says?

 

[squint]

I think the passage is quite clear that it is possible for a person to turn their back on God and their soul will die.

What do you think it says?

Not a single one of us escape the fact of having sin, period.

Unbelief is also a sin.

We all die because of sin regardless. Even those who are alive by the Spirit die because of sin in the corrupted vile body.

So now you should be asking yourself, hmmm? I wonder if Jesus really did take upon Himself the sins of the world or just of those who exercise certain rituals and belong to only one group?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

So now you should be asking yourself, hmmm? I wonder if Jesus really did take upon Himself the sins of the world or just of those who exercise certain rituals and belong to only one group?

Let's see what Jesus said:

John 15:5
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matt 25
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Erose]

People who are alive are dead in sin. People who are alive by the Spirit will also die a bodily death because of sin.



Indeed. And we all do so because of sin.

Ok so we got some agreement here. Then who are those then who do not die in this passage? And what death do they not die?

And I would remind you that unbelief is also a SIN.

Ok. That is the reason, why I believe in what Jesus and His Apostles teach, and not man-made beliefs that are not even a 100 years old.

Again, such leaps in false logic on your part do not logically follow my statements of fact.

I disagree.

What you are showing is justification bias. That being if your position is threatened a fantastic imaginary disruption is inferred, which is called a logical fallacy in discussion land.

Sorry, Squint, my position isn't being threatened here. We are in a discussion, about what the Bible teaches. We are in a discussion about this new idea of OSAS. That is what we are discussing. I have written nothing that is a logical fallacy.

 

[squint]

Let's see what Jesus said:

John 15:5
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matt 25
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Unlikely that any legitimate posters here will be denying any scripture.

Conclusions from same are a different story.

Some reminders from the orthodox realm:

->All sin was taken away at the cross. I believe this is an official determination that you are required to adhere to as RCC members. This presumably includes the sin of unbelief.

->Technically the RCC does not determine one single person to eternal torment in fire. They allow for prevailing Grace as a possibility for all people.

->The RCC allows for salvation by works.

->No RCC member is required to believe that a single person is going to be in hell. It is a heterodox position, but it is allowed to be held by members should they choose to believe this, and I know some that do believe this.

just fyi stuff.

 

[Albion]

I think the passage is quite clear that it is possible for a person to turn their back on God and their soul will die.

What do you think it says?

Let me help you with that.

What it says is that those WHO DO turn their backs on God will die...not that they were once saved and then turned back.

 

[Erose]

Not a single one of us escape the fact of having sin, period.

Unbelief is also a sin.

We all die because of sin regardless. Even those who are alive by the Spirit die because of sin in the corrupted vile body.

So now you should be asking yourself, hmmm? I wonder if Jesus really did take upon Himself the sins of the world or just of those who exercise certain rituals and belong to only one group?

So what happen in Ezekiel 18? Did God lie? I don't think so. Jesus came and washed away all of our sins you are correct. In baptism, He does this action. And you are right that even after we are saved, most of us still fall into sin. But He also gave us a means by which to have them absolved, which is what St. John spoke of at the end of the first chapter of his first letter, when he said [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

But this idea that once we are saved, we can go and do whatever we want, because well, we are not really doing the sin, Satan is; is foreign in Scripture. In fact that idea has its roots in an ancient heresy that is now called Gnosticism.

 

[squint]

Ok so we got some agreement here. Then who are those then who do not die in this passage? And what death do they not die?

Since we are discussing the people of Israel in the O.T. (primarily) you should probably understand that they are taught in the O.T. that they are all Gods children.

So I would ask you, is God going to burn alive forever His children? I say that is unlikely to happen. And the RCC teaches that the people of Israel (as well as all people) are in fact Gods children, and they are correct in that teaching.

With Israel we have a special (called out) group of people whom God personally engaged and interacted with for numerous reasons not the least of which was to bear the Body of His Son. For this reason they will ALL receive prevailing Grace as stipulated by Paul in Romans 11:25-32. Even if they were enemies of the Gospel, blinded to same by God for our behalves.

Ok. That is the reason, why I believe in what Jesus and His Apostles teach, and not man-made beliefs that are not even a 100 years old.

I'd hardly call it a recent belief. Jews have believed in their assured salvation long before Gentiles showed up to see the same matters in the O.T.
[qoute]
Sorry, Squint, my position isn't being threatened here. We are in a discussion, about what the Bible teaches. We are in a discussion about this new idea of OSAS. That is what we are discussing. I have written nothing that is a logical fallacy.[/quote]

You leapt to non-existing fatalistic scenarios, which are a logical fallacy.

s

 

[Erose]

Unlikely that any legitimate posters here will be denying any scripture.

Conclusions from same are a different story.

Some reminders from the orthodox realm:

->All sin was taken away at the cross. I believe this is an official determination that you are required to adhere to as RCC members. This presumably includes the sin of unbelief.

We tie ourselves to Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection through the Sacrament of Baptism. As Mark says in 16:[16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. So the Blood of Christ isn't applied to every single person, without them doing nothing about it. The Catholic Church does not and has never taught universal salvation.

->Technically the RCC does not determine one single person to eternal torment in fire. They allow for prevailing Grace as a possibility for all people.

You are right. The RCC never determines who is in hell. For that is not her place to do. And we are open...and I repeat open to the concept that in those situations where someone has never heard of Jesus or His Gospel, and has never had a chance to hear the life-saving words; but he/she innately follows the will of Him that they know not, then that person may be saved.

->The RCC allows for salvation by works.

False statement. We cannot work our way into heaven. As I have stated before this idea has been condemned as a heresy for over 1500 years, besides St. Paul taught against it as well.

->No RCC member is required to believe that a single person is going to be in hell. It is a heterodox position, but it is allowed to be held by members should they choose to believe this, and I know some that do believe this.

You may know some that believe this, but it doesn't make them right. The RCC teaches as Dogma that there is a hell, and sadly there are people in it. It doesn't profess to know what percentage of people or how many or who is in hell. Me I will stick with Jesus on this one, who says that the road to hell is wide and well travelled.

 

[Erose]

Let me help you with that.

What it says is that those WHO DO turn their backs on God will die...not that they were once saved and then turned back.

Can you clarify this statement? If is fairly ambiguous, and I would not wish to misrepresent what you say, in a response.

 

[Erose]

Since we are discussing the people of Israel in the O.T. (primarily) you should probably understand that they are taught in the O.T. that they are all Gods children.

So I would ask you, is God going to burn alive forever His children? I say that is unlikely to happen. And the RCC teaches that the people of Israel (as well as all people) are in fact Gods children, and they are correct in that teaching.

With Israel we have a special (called out) group of people whom God personally engaged and interacted with for numerous reasons not the least of which was to bear the Body of His Son. For this reason they will ALL receive prevailing Grace as stipulated by Paul in Romans 11:25-32. Even if they were enemies of the Gospel, blinded to same by God for our behalves.

I'm sticking with Jesus on this one.

Mat 25: [31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. [46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Everlasting doesn't imply a temporal condition.

I'd hardly call it a recent belief. Jews have believed in their assured salvation long before Gentiles showed up to see the same matters in the O.T.

Jews never believed such a thing.

You leapt to non-existing fatalistic scenarios, which are a logical fallacy.

That is sole your opinion and nothing more.

 

[squint]

We tie ourselves to Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection through the Sacrament of Baptism. As Mark says in 16:[16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. So the Blood of Christ isn't applied to every single person, without them doing nothing about it. The Catholic Church does not and has never taught universal salvation.

They do teach unlimited atonement, which was the observation in view. Since we are not allowed to discuss the other observation that will have to be left aside, other than that the RCC does allow any member to believe that all people can go to purgatory as a heterodox position, and I have heard many recite that they do right here at this site. I would also add I appreciate the graciousness of those who do see that far.

You are right. The RCC never determines who is in hell. For that is not her place to do. And we are open...and I repeat open to the concept that in those situations where someone has never heard of Jesus or His Gospel, and has never had a chance to hear the life-saving words; but he/she innately follows the will of Him that they know not, then that person may be saved.

Indeed. And in that sight I agree with them for the most part. I don't think God is going to be eternally burning people who did good and I'm pretty sure the early RCC struggled with this matter, as everyone should. We all know good people who did loving works. Some hardliners will say too bad. I think God in Christ will be vastly more gracious.

False statement. We cannot work our way into heaven. As I have stated before this idea has been condemned as a heresy for over 1500 years, besides St. Paul taught against it as well.

Well, you might have some circular logic running there. See your previous statement. That is basically salvation by good works.

You may know some that believe this, but it doesn't make them right.

They are allowed by the RCC to hold that position. The RCC does not say they are wrong to do so.

The RCC teaches as Dogma that there is a hell, and sadly there are people in it. It doesn't profess to know what percentage of people or how many or who is in hell. Me I will stick with Jesus on this one, who says that the road to hell is wide and well travelled.

Technically they don't teach that. It's a bit more complicated than what you see. All members can hold that anyone can technically go to purgatory if they WANT to. It is allowed to be held. And the RCC also allows for prevailing Grace at least as a possibility for all and they must in order to PRAY FOR ALL MANKIND. Some of course double deal trying to play it both ways. Falsely praying for all mankind yet also believing their prayers are meaningless.

s

 

[squint]

I'm sticking with Jesus on this one.

Mat 25: [31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. [46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Everlasting doesn't imply a temporal condition.

No one is going to disagree with the scriptures. What you might ask yourself is do you always and only do 'sheep works?'

Fact is when we don't do sheep works we are in fact doing goat works by not doing sheep works.

And for the record I do believe in eternal TORTURE in the fire of hell. I also know for a fact that the devil and his messengers will be in that LAKE OF FIRE. And I have no problem with that sight.

Jews never believed such a thing.

The Jews do not have a position of eternal torture or eternal death.

That is sole your opinion and nothing more.

The RCC believes in universal atonement. Many say, well, we might as well just sin then if that is the case. Which is similar to the leap you made with OSAS.

Most OSAS adherents know that to let ones guard down with the enemies of our souls, the devil and his messengers, we can again be taken as slaves to sin including the sin of unbelief AND that such would suffer resulting LOSS, but that does not equate to eternal torture in fire or God in Christ abandoning such.

There are other avenues to view in this matter. Many people who are on the frontlines of ministry are taken because they are in heated battle with evil forces. And they DO get taken down as casualties of WAR. This does not mean God abandons them. For no other reason they are warnings given to us by God of the facts of real enemies, and in that they serve us.

I have no need to deride fallen warriors to their eternal demise because that is hypocrisy. None of us can say we have no sin and be in Truth.

s

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Let me help you with that.

What it says is that those WHO DO turn their backs on God will die...not that they were once saved and then turned back.

Could a person without faith shipwreck their faith?

Could a person be freed from the sins of the world by Jesus without being a Christian?

Could a person walk away from God without first being with God?

Could a person be cut from a vine without first being part of the vine?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

You are right. The RCC never determines who is in hell. For that is not her place to do. /QUOTE]
Never? What about Judas? I just read something in the CCC concerning him that sounds quite contrary to that statement. But perhaps some scripture I'm missing might explain that.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Could a person without faith shipwreck their faith?

Could a person be freed from the sins of the world by Jesus without being a Christian?

Could a person walk away from God without first being with God?

Could a person be cut from a vine without first being part of the vine?

Good questions.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I will leave with this from Ezekiel chapter 18:

1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine
The soul who sins shall die

.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
10 “If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11 And does none of those duties,
But has eaten on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13 If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.
14 “If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15 Who has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16 Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor[a]
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
18 “As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Turn and Live

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

I believe it's obvious from the outlined verses that this verse belongs to those who are still in a state of depravity, not yet saved, in need of repentance, compare OC to NC receiving a heart of flesh and not of stone.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Erose]

They do teach unlimited atonement, which was the observation in view. Since we are not allowed to discuss the other observation that will have to be left aside, other than that the RCC does allow any member to believe that all people can go to purgatory as a heterodox position, and I have heard many recite that they do right here at this site. I would also add I appreciate the graciousness of those who do see that far.

My Church teaches nothing of the sort. Purgatory is for those who die in the state of Sanctifying grace (justified); but still have unforgiven venial sins, and temporal punishment due to sin. Purgatory is not for those who are in the state of mortal sin. Wherever you are getting you view on what my faith teaches you are dead wrong.

This is the teaching on purgatory straight from our OFFICIAL catechism:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

In the very first sentence it speaks of those that go to purgatory, which does not include everyone, but only those who die in God's grace and friendship.

Indeed. And in that sight I agree with them for the most part. I don't think God is going to be eternally burning people who did good and I'm pretty sure the early RCC struggled with this matter, as everyone should. We all know good people who did loving works. Some hardliners will say too bad. I think God in Christ will be vastly more gracious.

The Church in the early ages didn't really think about it. Those baptized and persevere to the end went to heaven; those who were not baptized, or those who were baptized and did not persevere to the end went to hell. To be honest the idea of being opened to...and I want to emphasize being opened to the possibility is a relatively new idea. That is the reason why it isn't established as doctrine or dogma, but rather as a theological speculation or opinion. In other words we really don't know, because Divine Revelation is silent on this matter. So all we can do is leave those souls and the souls of the unbaptized children in the hands of God. For quite honestly that is all we can do.

Well, you might have some circular logic running there. See your previous statement. That is basically salvation by good works.

Nope. Like I said before the idea that non-baptized can get to heaven is speculation on the part of theologians and if it is possible, which I am not saying it isn't, then they get to heaven through God's grace and free gift.

This whole idea of someone getting to heaven through good works, is quite frankly flawed, because it puts a mandate upon God. That is the whole problem with it. To think such a thing forces God into the service of man; and quite frankly that is an evil idea. So no I'm not going in circles.

They are allowed by the RCC to hold that position. The RCC does not say they are wrong to do so.

They can hold that position, as the RCC doesn't force anything on anyone; but holding that position is counter to the teaching of the Church. It has been viewed in the past as a heretical view; that is counter to the teachings from Jesus' lips. Again here is the viewpoint of hell straight from the Catechism:

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619

Father, accept this offering

from your whole family.

Grant us your peace in this life,

save us from final damnation,

and count us among those you have chosen.620

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

Technically they don't teach that. It's a bit more complicated than what you see. All members can hold that anyone can technically go to purgatory if they WANT to. It is allowed to be held. And the RCC also allows for prevailing Grace at least as a possibility for all and they must in order to PRAY FOR ALL MANKIND. Some of course double deal trying to play it both ways. Falsely praying for all mankind yet also believing their prayers are meaningless.

As I have pointed out above this is a false understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[squint]

My Church teaches nothing of the sort. Purgatory is for those who die in the state of Sanctifying grace (justified); but still have unforgiven venial sins, and temporal punishment due to sin. Purgatory is not for those who are in the state of mortal sin. Wherever you are getting you view on what my faith teaches you are dead wrong.

This is the teaching on purgatory straight from our OFFICIAL catechism:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

In the very first sentence it speaks of those that go to purgatory, which does not include everyone, but only those who die in God's grace and friendship.




The Church in the early ages didn't really think about it. Those baptized and persevere to the end went to heaven; those who were not baptized, or those who were baptized and did not persevere to the end went to hell. To be honest the idea of being opened to...and I want to emphasize being opened to the possibility is a relatively new idea. That is the reason why it isn't established as doctrine or dogma, but rather as a theological speculation or opinion. In other words we really don't know, because Divine Revelation is silent on this matter. So all we can do is leave those souls and the souls of the unbaptized children in the hands of God. For quite honestly that is all we can do.


Nope. Like I said before the idea that non-baptized can get to heaven is speculation on the part of theologians and if it is possible, which I am not saying it isn't, then they get to heaven through God's grace and free gift.

This whole idea of someone getting to heaven through good works, is quite frankly flawed, because it puts a mandate upon God. That is the whole problem with it. To think such a thing forces God into the service of man; and quite frankly that is an evil idea. So no I'm not going in circles.




They can hold that position, as the RCC doesn't force anything on anyone; but holding that position is counter to the teaching of the Church. It has been viewed in the past as a heretical view; that is counter to the teachings from Jesus' lips. Again here is the viewpoint of hell straight from the Catechism:

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619

Father, accept this offering

from your whole family.

Grant us your peace in this life,

save us from final damnation,

and count us among those you have chosen.620

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText


As I have pointed out above this is a false understanding of the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Some RCC members have said the exact opposite of what you see.

Unfortunately without the 'threat' many believers just wouldn't believe or obey.

And equally unfortunate is that a handmedown system from old priest castes, even from the arena of unbelievers in the worldly system ruled by threat and force in order to get the populace to obey.

I consider it an unfortunate parcel of the ruling class. And I don't believe Jesus exercised that kind of authority whatsoever.

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