Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Erose]

Luke 12:29
And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

If you claim to believe, then it would not be wise to be of a doubtful mind.

What is it you doubt? You doubt that God in Christ is sufficient to save you?

Why would you believe doubt? Is doubt worthy of belief?

You should doubt yourself. You should never doubt God.

Doubt is the killer of faith.

Any sect that promotes doubt is not faithful to Christ.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Doubt, in short, is of the devil in a persons mind.

Why would any believer sit in the seat of DOUBT? It makes no sense whatsoever to do so. Why do you bear DOUBT? So you can beat someone else with the threat of LOSS?

Is there some benefit involved for the faithful to spread that disease called doubt?

1 Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

s

It depends on whether or not it is a false belief. It would be un-Christian for me or anyone else to confirm you in a false understanding of the Gospel message, if you have one.

 

[Erose]

What is left to do after Christ declared it "tetelestai"?

Or are you saying that we're saved by grace after all we can do?

What is left? How about obeying Him. Doing what He tells us to to. Striving to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. The whole Bible is universal in its teaching on obedience.

 

[South Bound]

What is left? How about obeying Him. Doing what He tells us to to. Striving to be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. The whole Bible is universal in its teaching on obedience.

So then, you're saying righteousness comes through the law?

What do you think Christ meant when He said "tetelestai"?

 

[squint]

It depends on whether or not it is a false belief. It would be un-Christian for me or anyone else to confirm you in a false understanding of the Gospel message, if you have one.

It is ironic that people who are not really sure they are saved call that faith.

 

[Erose]

So then, you're saying righteousness comes through the law?

What do you think Christ meant when He said "tetelestai"?

No I am telling you what Jesus tells you to do. Righteousness comes from Christ and Christ only, but Jesus gave us a roadmap on how to live for Him. This whole idea that all one has to do is voice a sinners prayer, and then go off and do whatever they want is quite frankly unbiblical.

 

[Erose]

It is ironic that people who are not really sure they are saved call that faith.

Ok. So you don't think wisdom and knowledge aren't important? If you don't know what to have faith in, then how can you have faith?

 

[squint]

Ok. So you don't think wisdom and knowledge aren't important? If you don't know what to have faith in, then how can you have faith?

Can we really say that faith that demands doubt of our Saviors Ability to save is faith?

unlikely

So, in classic fashion, the doubt turns to the adherent and they must, in effect, save themselves.

I've considered that to save ones self from God seems rather futile.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

Luke 12:29
And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.

If you claim to believe, then it would not be wise to be of a doubtful mind.

What is it you doubt? You doubt that God in Christ is sufficient to save you?

Why would you believe doubt? Is doubt worthy of belief?

You should doubt yourself. You should never doubt God.

Doubt is the killer of faith.

Any sect that promotes doubt is not faithful to Christ.

Romans 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Doubt, in short, is of the devil in a persons mind.

Why would any believer sit in the seat of DOUBT? It makes no sense whatsoever to do so. Why do you bear DOUBT? So you can beat someone else with the threat of LOSS?

Is there some benefit involved for the faithful to spread that disease called doubt?

1 Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

s

It would probably be best to place in quotes the actual text. The way you present it looks like your own viewpoints flow with the text.

If you'd actually read Luke 12, you'd see that your interpretation is in error.

You'd see that it speaks of men who are worrying about what they might eat. That is they aren't trusting God with all of their heart. That is why they are called men of "little faith". However, if you read later, it states that these men have been CHOSEN to be given the kingdom.

This is saying that a man should not worry, for God will provide. After all, He's already chosen you for the kingdom. Therefore, God seeks obedience in faith before he provides the things in life that you need.

This is not an issue of salvation, as the men have already been chosen. This is about God seeking for an individual to truly trust Him in obedience for our provisions. Let's not forget that the Bible says that all you need is the faith of a mustard seed. That means that men of "little faith" are still good in the eyes of God. Little faith is still faith, albeit not where God desires for our lives.

As far as the Romans verse goes, think of it like this. It speaks of doubting as being sinful. However, every sin can keep us apart from God if not for the blood of Jesus. This is why salvation is necessary to cover our sins. This includes doubting. If a person has been saved, then even our doubts are covered by the blood of Jesus. What is the verse about Lord, help my unbelief? Thus, one can doubt and be a child of God, and this sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. It doesn't damn you, for you are a child of God. Instead, we should seek God to help us with our doubts.

With the Timothy verse, you can see that God doesn't want us to doubt, but it isn't a damnable offense if you've believed and accepted Christ. Doubting is not the same as outright rejection of God.

 

[South Bound]

No I am telling you what Jesus tells you to do.

No, you've told us your opinion. You haven't cited one verse of scripture.

Righteousness comes from Christ and Christ only, but Jesus gave us a roadmap on how to live for Him.

But we're not talking about "living for Him". We're talking about how one is saved.

This whole idea that all one has to do is voice a sinners prayer, and then go off and do whatever they want is quite frankly unbiblical.

I agree. That's why I've been a very vocal and consistent critic of that practice. But it's also equally untrue and Unbiblical that we have to perform works to be saved or to maintain salvation.

 

[squint]

It would probably be best to place in quotes the actual text. The way you present it looks like your own viewpoints flow with the text.

Anyone who knows their Word should recognize a space and the difference between my statements and scripture quotes which have no spaces when mulitple lines are involved.

If you'd actually read Luke 12, you'd see that your interpretation is in error.

Oh? You will dictate my sights for me please?

You'd see that it speaks of men who are worrying about what they might eat. That is they aren't trusting God with all of their heart. That is why they are called men of "little faith". However, if you read later, it states that these men have been CHOSEN to be given the kingdom.

Seems pretty clear to me that doubt isn't supposed to be in the cards, per the QUOTE. And yes, those Words are for all of us as well. I don't subscribe to the theories that Gods Word only applies to those to whom it was directly spoken.

As far as the Romans verse goes, think of it like this. It speaks of doubting as being sinful.

Indeed. That was my point of observation.

The 'range' of sin extends to 'anything that is not of faith.'

However, every sin can keep us apart from God if not for the blood of Jesus. This is why salvation is necessary to cover our sins. This includes doubting. If a person has been saved, then even our doubts are covered by the blood of Jesus. What is the verse about Lord, help my unbelief? Thus, one can doubt and be a child of God, and this sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. It doesn't damn you, for you are a child of God. Instead, we should seek God to help us with our doubts.

Simple logic would dictate that I should trust my Savior to save and not doubt, which I don't, if for no other reason than it is ignorant to adhere to a Savior that can't.

Doesn't take a genius or faith giant to see the futility of that slant.

Jesus might save me? Sorry. Doesn't compute. Yet people believe that.

s

 

[Rick Otto]

Ok. So you don't think wisdom and knowledge aren't important? If you don't know what to have faith in, then how can you have faith?

By not having been taught that you need to know what to have faith in.

I knew at 3&1/2 yrs old. By 4yrs old, I knew it enough that it couldn't be intimidated out of me.

Try listening to creation. Psalm 119 gives instructions.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

Can we really say that faith that demands doubt of our Saviors Ability to save is faith?

unlikely

So, in classic fashion, the doubt turns to the adherent and they must, in effect, save themselves.

I've considered that to save ones self from God seems rather futile.

I agree with you in the context of a person as an unbeliever coming to Christ shouldn't doubt God's ability to save, such as having an unbelief in God's ability to save. Therefore, it is in question if such a person had true faith to begin with. Yet, we should also remember that all we need is a mustard seed of faith.

However, after conversion, a person can have doubts about the message and still be a true believer. Remember, it is not us who saves, but God. If we truly put our faith in Jesus Christ and we believe, then it is the Holy Spirit that has come upon us and brought us to conversion. Once saved, always saved, for no one can separate you from the father. However, because we still sin, the sin of doubt can creep into the believer, due to the sinful nature of man. This is why we should ask God to help our unbelief.

 

[NorrinRadd]

No I am telling you what Jesus tells you to do. Righteousness comes from Christ and Christ only, but Jesus gave us a roadmap on how to live for Him. This whole idea that all one has to do is voice a sinners prayer, and then go off and do whatever they want is quite frankly unbiblical.

Yeah. And it's also unbiblical to say that we MUST "do" or "not do" certain things in order to retain salvation.

So everything is biblical, and everything is unbiblical.

 

[squint]

I agree with you in the context of a person as an unbeliever coming to Christ shouldn't doubt God's ability to save, such as having an unbelief in God's ability to save. Therefore, it is in question if such a person had true faith to begin with. Yet, we should also remember that all we need is a mustard seed of faith.

However, after conversion, a person can have doubts about the message and still be a true believer. Remember, it is not us who saves, but God. If we truly put our faith in Jesus Christ and we believe, then it is the Holy Spirit that has come upon us and brought us to conversion. Once saved, always saved, for no one can separate you from the father. However, because we still sin, the sin of doubt can creep into the believer, due to the sinful nature of man. This is why we should ask God to help our unbelief.

To claim belief and simultaneously claim unbelief doesn't compute.

Sorry.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

Anyone who knows their Word should recognize a space and the difference between my statements and scripture quotes which have no spaces when mulitple lines are involved.



Oh? You will dictate my sights for me please?



Seems pretty clear to me that doubt isn't supposed to be in the cards, per the QUOTE. And yes, those Words are for all of us as well. I don't subscribe to the theories that Gods Word only applies to those to whom it was directly spoken.



Indeed. That was my point of observation.

The 'range' of sin extends to 'anything that is not of faith.'



Simple logic would dictate that I should trust my Savior to save and not doubt, which I don't, if for no other reason than it is ignorant to adhere to a Savior that can't.

Doesn't take a genius or faith giant to see the futility of that slant.

Jesus might save me? Sorry. Doesn't compute. Yet people believe that.

s

I agree with you in a previous post that you should not doubt God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

When I spoke of doubt, I was speaking of doubting yourself under the realm of grace. That is, doubting who you are in Christ. Not doubting that God has the ability to save you.

I think that upon conversion one needs to have at least a mustard seed of faith in Christ and His ability to save you. That is, it doesn't take a lot of faith, only a little. God is merciful and gracious to those who have just a little faith, for a little faith is faith. The faith also has the ability to grow.

After conversion, believers can have doubts about their salvation, as that is doubting themselves, not God.

However, I think that the best way for someone dealing with doubt is to seek the Word. Ignorance of the Word is often the case for many people's doubt.

Now, after conversion, can someone doubt God. I think that there are periods in a person's life where they may fall away and doubt God, or perhaps they are not strongly scripturally grounded, and so their lack of knowledge leads them to have fear and doubt, but God brings them back to full assurance through His Word.

Remember, when a person who is truly moved to repentance and acceptance of the Lord, Jesus Christ, it isn't them initiating it at all. It is God. God knows what He is doing. He isn't initiating a conversion just for the sake of saying, "I was just kidding". He actually is behind it. Therefore, any true conversion of the spirit is of God. He isn't the author of confusion.

Since the Lord says that he will never leave us, as also there are a multitude of other verses which indicate that salvation is eternal and cannot be lost, once one is saved, they're saved, if truly from the heart they desired to be cleansed from their sins and to be a follower of Christ.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

To claim belief and simultaneously claim unbelief doesn't compute.

Sorry.

Have you ever had periods in your life where you believed something, but for whatever reason, you later doubted what you previously believed without doubt?

If doubt were not an issue that the Lord deals with in a person's life, while being under grace, then the Bible would not say, LORD, help my unbelief.

Doubt is a sin like any other sin. God's grace is sufficient.

KEY POINT:

Having doubt does not mean that you have no faith. It only means that your faith is not as strong as it should be. Someone who has no faith is not going to ask God to help them with their unbelief (doubt).

 

[Erose]

Can we really say that faith that demands doubt of our Saviors Ability to save is faith?

unlikely

So, in classic fashion, the doubt turns to the adherent and they must, in effect, save themselves.

I've considered that to save ones self from God seems rather futile.

You are throwing out a strawman here. No one doubts that Jesus saves. The debate here is HOW He saves, not if He saves.

 

[squint]

I agree with you in a previous post that you should not doubt God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

When I spoke of doubt, I was speaking of doubting yourself under the realm of grace.

I have no doubt that I doubt myself...

Beyond any doubt....

That is, doubting who you are in Christ. Not doubting that God has the ability to save you.

Glad we clarified that...heh heh For the record I doubt you beyond any doubt as well...

Yet I would NEVER doubt that you are saved. It's against my religion...

I think that upon conversion one needs to have at least a mustard seed of faith in Christ and His ability to save you. That is, it doesn't take a lot of faith, only a little. God is merciful and gracious to those who have just a little faith, for a little faith is faith. The faith also has the ability to grow.

Once you meet someone it's hard to deny they exist...get my drift?

I have met Jesus, in my heart. That introduction can not be undone. He personally introduced Himself. He didn't actually say anything to me though. Kinda funny that way.

After conversion, believers can have doubts about their salvation, as that is doubting themselves, not God.

I make a practice of doubting myself daily, early and often.

However, I think that the best way for someone dealing with doubt is to seek the Word. Ignorance of the Word is often the case for many people's doubt.

I really have no interest in trying to cure doubts of others other than to say personal doubt or doubt in ones self is well deserved.

Now, after conversion, can someone doubt God. I think that there are periods in a person's life where they may fall away and doubt God, or perhaps they are not strongly scripturally grounded, and so their lack of knowledge leads them to have fear and doubt, but God brings them back to full assurance through His Word.

Indeed. Escape has not proven to be a viable option. I am definitely His slave, and a happy one at that, regardless of doubting myself.

Remember, when a person who is truly moved to repentance and acceptance of the Lord, Jesus Christ, it isn't them initiating it at all. It is God. God knows what He is doing. He isn't initiating a conversion just for the sake of saying, "I was just kidding". He actually is behind it. Therefore, any true conversion of the spirit is of God. He isn't the author of confusion.

Generally agreed but you should understand that God IS also An Author of confusion as well. One merely needs to observe what happened at the Tower of Babel to see who confused the languages of mankind. Which remains quite steadfastly intact I might add.

Since the Lord says that he will never leave us, as also there are a multitude of other verses which indicate that salvation is eternal and cannot be lost, once one is saved, they're saved, if truly from the heart they desired to be cleansed from their sins and to be a follower of Christ.

Over the course of some conversation you might find some of my observations of interest. Bottom line is I don't use my so called faith to the detriment of the faith of others. So if someone believes they might not be saved I have no problem with their unbelief and believing otherwise.

And believe it or not some believers here are actually offended that I think they are saved.

Weird huh?

s

 

[squint]

You are throwing out a strawman here. No one doubts that Jesus saves. The debate here is HOW He saves, not if He saves.

Well, it might appear that His Abilities are strictly in accordance with your own abilities, which I doubt, for the record. I didn't see the crown of thorns on either of our heads.

s

 

[Erose]

Yeah. And it's also unbiblical to say that we MUST "do" or "not do" certain things in order to retain salvation.

So everything is biblical, and everything is unbiblical.

It is? Interesting for I find in my Bible. Jesus makes such a statement here in. Mat 19: [16] And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [20] The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me?

[21] Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. [22] And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. [23] Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. [24] And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. [25] And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?

He says it again in the Gospel of John during His "I am the Vine" discourse :
[6] If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. [7] If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. [9] As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. [10] If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father' s commandments, and do abide in his love.