Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Predestination perhaps

Jde 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ

Mama Kidogo
Originally Posted by maid in His image View Post
Scriture contradicting scripture. How odd.
Except it doesn't. It's just from a poor understanding of the word "predestined" and having God live by man's concept of time.

The understanding isn't about the word 'predestined, since you choose to single that out. They were ordained, apparently singled out to fulfill a purpose. They are those who reject ans disavow, but they are among us.

1:4 For 1063 there are certain 5100 men 444 crept in unawares 3921 5656, who 3588 were before 4270 0 of old 3819 ordained 4270 5772 to 1519 this 5124 condemnation 2917, ungodly men 765, turning 3346 5723 the grace 5485 of our 2257 God 2316 into 1519 lasciviousness 766, and 2532 denying 720 5740 the only 3441 Lord 1203 God 2316, and 2532 our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547.

1:5 I will 1014 5736 therefore 1161 put 5279 0 you 5209 in remembrance 5279 5658, though ye 5209 once 530 knew 1492 5761 this 5124, how that 3754 the Lord 2962, having saved 4982 5660 the people 2992 out of 1537 the land 1093 of Egypt 125, afterward 1208 destroyed 622 5656 them that believed 4100 5660 not 3361.

1:6 And 5037 the angels 32 which kept 5083 5660 not 3361 their 1438 first estate 746, but 235 left 620 5631 their own 2398 habitation 3613, he hath reserved 5083 5758 in everlasting 126 chains 1199 under 5259 darkness 2217 unto 1519 the judgment 2920 of the great 3173 day 2250.(first estate: or, principality)

He likens the Israelites to those angels who left their post, having seen tasted but never trusting.

 

[Erose]

What you are presenting there is the 'God NEEDS my choices/actions in order to justify MYSELF being saved.'

Where do you make that conclusion? God has the power to save us whether we like it or not, I agree. He CHOOSES not to violate our will. The same goes with the fact that Jesus DIDN'T NEED to die on the cross. God could have redeemed us in another way, He is omnipotent after all. But instead God CHOOSE to die on the cross. Mary didn't have to give birth to Jesus. She was given a choice, and she said yes.

For the record I generally reject the 'God is in NEED' of anything scenarios other than the extraction of His Own Pleasures, which I really have no idea of anyway.

So do I. God is a necessary being and thus He needs nothing outside of Himself.

Never said we were. Your scenario dictates that we earn our salvation by our satisfaction of Gods Needs from us. I just don't buy into that particular package.

My scenario does nothing of the sort. Rather it expresses God's love for us; that He isn't going to force us to do anything that we don't want to.

In my eyes God Is Perfect and I really don't have any idea what Perfect that is. I know for sure God is not 'in need' of anything that I might have, that's a certainty.

true.

And I would only say that is your imagination of 'what God wants.'

Hum. So you are saying that God want us to be His slaves in heaven? Really? Just after you claimed that God needs nothing? If He needs nothing from us or anything else, then why on earth would He want slaves?

I wrote a little ditty quite a few years back about WHAT GOD WANTS? that went something like this:

Premise 1: God hates sin

True

Premise 2: Anything that is not God is less than Perfection (God)

I disagree. God is all powerful and thus He can and has created that which can be classified as perfect, outside of Himself. The angels in heaven are one example. There are even constructs that we can create that are perfect as well, i.e. a perfect square is very possible, or cube, or circle, or line, etc. So this premise is false.

Premise 3: God (Perfection) created all things for His Pleasure

Did He? Would that be a proper way to phrase this? Me I would phrase it that God loved us before He created us, and out of love for us He created us.

Premise 4: Evil exists as an automatic result of less than Perfection

True. Evil is a deprivation of good.

Premise 5: Perfection (God) by virtue of being The Creator of all things controls and guarantees the outcome the full
spectrum of all things and uses of all things for His Pleasure as ONLY He will solely and PERFECTLY determine

Ok.

Premise 6: Perfection is none the less Perfection IF all things serve The Pleasure of Perfection and less than Perfection (all
things) are allowed by Perfection to ultimately serve His Perfect Pleasure.

Not sure what you are meaning exactly here.

Premise 7: God as Perfection is Great Enough to create control and use good and evil for His Perfect Pleasure, the exact and ultimate specifics of which are determinable and known only to and by Perfection

God did not create evil. He uses the results of evil to bring forth greater Good, but He creates not evil.

Premise 8: All things less than Perfection will serve Perfection to the ultimate satisfaction of Perfections Pleasures.

Again the pleasure thing is holding me up from agreeing with you.

Premise 9: There are no permanent flaws in or by Perfection IF Perfections Perfect Pleasures are served by His creation OF "all things" which are subject to SERVE His Perfect Satisfaction of Perfect Pleasure.

Final Premise 10: Only Perfection as Perfection can totally know and guarantee the outcome of His Perfect Pleasure and Perfect Satisfaction

Ok, I think. This pleasure thing is not exactly what I would use to describe the situation.

We can presume from this construct that the final result of the creation of less than Perfection by Perfection will result in The Perfect Pleasure of Perfection, therefore what Perfection produces is Perfect Pleasure ONLY to the Satisfactions and PERFORMANCES of Perfection.

I don't get that, nor do I agree with you that the argument proposed is anywhere near a deductive argument.

And I'd say yer just guessin'

Nope. That comes straight from the NT. From Jesus Himself and from St. Paul as well. We are able to call God "Abba, Father" because we have been adopted into God's family, though the gift of Baptism. There is no guessing when it comes to my salvation.

I'd also say again that God is NOT IN NEED of anything I have. If He is, HE is in trouble.

We have already established this. Don't know how the fact that we are made children, and not slaves, of God means that God needs us.

And we would disagree on that as well.

Anything that exists does so for Gods Sole Pleasure and that includes the 'power of evil.'

So God created that which He hates?

I'd suggest your view of 'man' is not accurate or scriptural.

I don't think so.

I've read the entirety of the text continually for decades now. I am very familiar with The Word on multiple levels. I'm also pretty good at legal docs so I might have a leg up on some structures and understandings in the law arena.

So you are saying that God doesn't really mean what He says to Ezekiel? That He is really deceiving Ezekiel?

 

[Erose]

Consider the following statement:

But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Is that a statement of fact, or only a warning about the consequences of falling away so that you don't do it?

I would say that it is both.

You probably say it's the latter, but it's actually the former, even if you cannot get your mind around it.

Like I said it is both.

Those who are saved are those who endure.

Yes those who will be saved are those who endure. But as the sentence is framed, it requires enduring for one to be saved. "Will be" is future tense, not past or present.

Those who do not endure are obviously not among the saved. It's a statement of fact.

I think it should be rephrased as "Those who do not endure will not, obviously, be among the saved. You are trying to read that sentence in the past or present tense, while it is obviously future tense.

 

[Albion]

I would say that it is both.

Like I said it is both.

Well, the two are not necessarily related.

Yes those who will be saved are those who endure. But as the sentence is framed, it requires enduring for one to be saved.

That's the same thing...unless you assume that the saved might not endure.

I think it should be rephrased as "Those who do not endure will not, obviously, be among the saved. You are trying to read that sentence in the past or present tense, while it is obviously future tense.

And I think you are trying to make it say more than it does. Of course it has a future tense element since we are looking at future events, but that doesn't change anything. The ones who will be saved are the ones who will endure BUT it's not as though there was any question about it.

 

[Erose]

Point being if believers 'think' they are obedient to avoid hell, they really are not obedient.

They are doing what they are being forced to do under threat or duress.

That is the reason why we should move from our childish ways and mature in the faith and our love in God. When we were children if we were not afraid of our parents we disobeyed them. But discipline taught us obedience early on. As we grow, we should begin to obey our parents not out of fear, but out of love for them. The same goes in our Christian lives. In the beginning, fear of hell helps those who do not as of yet have a strong love for God. As we mature, our love for Him should grow, and our reason for obedience should change as we grow. I obey God because I love Him, not because I could go to hell. If that is the reason why you obey Him, then you need to grow as a Christian. It is the same point with my wife. I don't cheat on my wife, not because I fear my wife, but because I love my wife. I could never do intentionally that which would damage our relationship.

 

[squint]

Where do you make that conclusion?

The position presented was that God needs our performances in order to save. I don't buy it.

God has the power to save us whether we like it or not, I agree.

Indeed. There will probably be more (previously on earth) unbelievers in heaven than believers.

He CHOOSES not to violate our will.

I have a hard time extracting God out of anything in His creation inclusive of our wills. Our decisions are not made in a vacuum devoid of Gods Presence and ACTIONS.

Every bad actor in the crucifixion did so by the Exact Design of God. He was not crucified by a bunch of free will minds and actions.

The same goes with the fact that Jesus DIDN'T NEED to die on the cross.

We can both try to guess at Gods Perfect Actions. Until we are Perfect ourselves we are only guessing and can only see in part regardless.

Even in this our actions take place in partial blindness.

God could have redeemed us in another way, He is omnipotent after all.

Indeed. God could have made every last one of us exactly like Jesus. But God Himself chose to bind us all with disobedience and planted us all in weakness, corruption, dishonor and in bodies that are subject to intrustion by entities that are not us. I can not in any way equate that to freewill.

But instead God CHOOSE to die on the cross. Mary didn't have to give birth to Jesus. She was given a choice, and she said yes.

Mary did not make that decision in a vacuum devoid of the Spirit of God. Sorry. Jesus didn't come about as the result of a single choice by a single woman apart from the intimacy of The Spirit working in her as well.

So do I. God is a necessary being and thus He needs nothing outside of Himself.

Except our choices so that He may be allowed to act in our behalves? Again, unlikely.

My scenario does nothing of the sort. Rather it expresses God's love for us; that He isn't going to force us to do anything that we don't want to.

When you dangle someone over the pit of eternal torture in fire threats that is not force? Who are you kidding?!

There's not a man of us who would NOT squeal Gods praises in that position. We'd all be singin HALLELUIAH.

We'd all be instant converts. Was it freewill? Never. It's pure threat.

I'm not saying threat isn't an effective tool mind you. But it is what it is.

Hum. So you are saying that God want us to be His slaves in heaven?

I doubt very much that the option to disobey will still be on the table in heaven.

Really? Just after you claimed that God needs nothing? If He needs nothing from us or anything else, then why on earth would He want slaves?

Who said we aren't slaves right now? No amount of supposed 'freewill' is going to be used to justify our eternal habitations.

I disagree. God is all powerful and thus He can and has created that which can be classified as perfect, outside of Himself.

Not quite. There is a substantial difference between created perfection and The Perfection of God The Creator. They are not the same. A perfect devil is what? Is what? Yeah, still a devil in all his adverse perfection.

The angels in heaven are one example. There are even constructs that we can create that are perfect as well, i.e. a perfect square is very possible, or cube, or circle, or line, etc. So this premise is false.

The perfection of any 'thing' will never hold any kind of comparison to God. They are simply different matters. One of which is well beyond our grasp and will remain that way FOREVER.

Only God knows the fulness of what He Is and Consists of.

The balance of us are only guessing. And if anyone says they know otherwise I know they are lying.

God did not create evil. He uses the results of evil to bring forth greater Good, but He creates not evil.

God created all things including the power of evil. Evil doesn't exist in a vacuum apart from God nor did it just pop up out of itself.

Again the pleasure thing is holding me up from agreeing with you.

The observation is that God Himself made 'all things' for His Pleasure. Only He knows what that is and only HE can extract a Perfect Outcome.

The balance of us are automatically relegated to a lesser sight and I'm OK with that. I'm not God nor do I want to be.

I don't get that, nor do I agree with you that the argument proposed is anywhere near a deductive argument.

I'm saying none of us KNOW what Gods Perfect Pleasure Is. That's strictly in His Arena to decide, to produce, to extract. We do know from the text that that is the outcome though. His Pleasure.

Nope. That comes straight from the NT. From Jesus Himself and from St. Paul as well. We are able to call God "Abba, Father" because we have been adopted into God's family, though the gift of Baptism. There is no guessing when it comes to my salvation.

The topic is OSAS. Did you convert?

So you are saying that God doesn't really mean what He says to Ezekiel? That He is really deceiving Ezekiel?

Don't recall citing Ezekiel with you. Perhaps you can elaborate?

s

 

[Erose]

Well, the two are not necessarily related.

Perhaps, but from what I have read they were both true.

That's the same thing...unless you assume that the saved might not endure.

I go with the statement you quoted. Those who endure WILL BE saved. Which assumes that those who do not endure WILL NOT BE saved.

And I think you are trying to make it say more than it does. Of course it has a future tense element since we are looking at future events, but that doesn't change anything. The ones who will be saved are the ones who will endure BUT it's not as though there was any question about it.

The bolded part I agree with. Those who will be saved are those who will endure. I do not agree that the statement even implies that those who are saved will endure. I think gleening this out of that statement is trying to make it say more than it does.

Now one thing that occurs to me is perhaps you are referring to those who are saved as those who are in heaven. Well then you would be right then. Those who endured are saved. But that phrase was not referring to those in heaven.

 

[Albion]

I go with the statement you quoted. Those who endure WILL BE saved. Which assumes that those who do not endure WILL NOT BE saved.

Well, I can't disagree with that, so the only issue, it seems to me now, is whether there is any chance that those who have Faith won't.

Now one thing that occurs to me is perhaps you are referring to those who are saved as those who are in heaven.

No, I wasn't.

 

[SAAN]

Oh but the Bible is not saying that there's something magical in uttering those words and then you are home free. It is speaking of a real conversion in which it really comes from the heart.



OK. I agree.


Sounds right to me also.


All right, but what you are describing is someone who did not have real faith and so was never motivated to live the Christlike life. It's someone who's conscience was never troubled, who did not struggle with sin, and all that fits the person you described above.

But it goes back to the question then, how does one really know if they are saved. Christianity teaches all you have to do is confess and believe and your set. I see many genuinely confess and believe at a young age and they do live they way that one who has put their faith and trust in Christ should live, but they go off to college or the real world at 18, go buck wild, and some come out not believing in God at all after being challenged or are comfortable with the life they live of fornication, drinking, drugs etc.

Granted they can repent , but if they go on in life any way they please the complete opposite of the bible and dont return back to God, OSAS teaches they will still go to heaven regardless of how they lived after they were saved, simply because they got saved period at a young age.

 

[Albion]

But it goes back to the question then, how does one really know if they are saved.

None of us can know that with absolute certainty. Jesus said to trust and not worry and that's the most we can do. If we truly believe, our lives will be lived in the same way regardless.

Christianity teaches all you have to do is confess and believe and your set.

I don't think that it DOES say this is all there is. A real faith, a real conversion, necessarily means wanting to do what Jesus called us to do. If you are indifferent to that, you don't really believe in him, even if you intellectually accept him.

I see many genuinely confess and believe at a young age and they do live they way that one who has put their faith and trust in Christ should live, but they go off to college or the real world at 18, go buck wild, and some come out not believing in God at all after being challenged or are comfortable with the life they live of fornication, drinking, drugs etc.

Granted they can repent , but if they go on in life any way they please the complete opposite of the bible and dont return back to God, OSAS teaches they will still go to heaven regardless of how they lived after they were saved, simply because they got saved period at a young age.

Not at all! OSAS means that those who truly are saved will be protected. What you've described does not sound at all like the lifestyle of one who has been brought to the Lord except in some superficial and transitory way. Of course, there are also those who stumble and then realize their error and turn around. That's why I say that it's just as well that we do not try to guess at who is saved and who is not. God knows.

 

[ChetSinger]

But that verse doesn't refer to these people as ever having been true believers or as having been saved or as having Faith.

The profile that's described there reminds me of people we've all known who get all excited when they hear a powerful sermon or experience some beautiful religious feeling...but it only lasts for a few days and then they are back to their old selves.

Are you certain of that? The Greek verb behind "believe for a while" is the same verb behind all of those wonderful promises in the Gospel of John made to those who "believe". Luke 8:13 tells me that someone can have saving faith for a while, yet fall away when tested.

 

[Erose]

Well, I can't disagree with that, so the only issue, it seems to me now, is whether there is any chance that those who have Faith won't.

Well I at least we can agree that one cannot glean eternal security from the passage quoted.

No, I wasn't.

Ok.

 

[Erose]

The position presented was that God needs our performances in order to save. I don't buy it.

The position never presented what you are claiming.

Indeed. There will probably be more (previously on earth) unbelievers in heaven than believers.

Only if they have faith.

I have a hard time extracting God out of anything in His creation inclusive of our wills. Our decisions are not made in a vacuum devoid of Gods Presence and ACTIONS.

No, and I didn't make that inclination either. The Catholic position as illustrated at the council of Trent, is that it requires God's free gift of grace to elevate our wills enough so that we can make a free choice.

Every bad actor in the crucifixion did so by the Exact Design of God. He was not crucified by a bunch of free will minds and actions.

I disagree with your point here. You are limiting God's power and His providence. The power of God's providence is that it INCLUDES our freely made decisions and yet turns out just the way God' ultimately wills. That is the reason why predestination is a mystery.

We can both try to guess at Gods Perfect Actions. Until we are Perfect ourselves we are only guessing and can only see in part regardless.

Even in this our actions take place in partial blindness.

I don't have to guess. It is what it is. If you believe God is omnipotent, then God could have saved us quite frankly in an infinite number of ways.

Indeed. God could have made every last one of us exactly like Jesus. But God Himself chose to bind us all with disobedience and planted us all in weakness, corruption, dishonor and in bodies that are subject to intrustion by entities that are not us. I can not in any way equate that to freewill.

Well originally He did make us exactly like Jesus in the sense of His humanity as both Adam and Eve were without sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to sin, but rather Adam and Eve freely choose to disobey God and separated themselves from God. It is false to believe that the human race was created to be sinners. The Bible supports quite the opposite.

Mary did not make that decision in a vacuum devoid of the Spirit of God. Sorry. Jesus didn't come about as the result of a single choice by a single woman apart from the intimacy of The Spirit working in her as well.

Your right she didn't make a choice inside a vacuum. But rather she made a free choice of affirmation out of her love for her God. If her choice did not matter, then why did the author of Luke make it a point to write down an account of her decision?

Except our choices so that He may be allowed to act in our behalves? Again, unlikely.

Actually very likely.

When you dangle someone over the pit of eternal torture in fire threats that is not force? Who are you kidding?!

No it isn't. Every single day people choose hell over heaven. Every single day. No one is forced to go to heaven or hell. We all decide on where we want to spend our eternity. With God or without Him.

There's not a man of us who would NOT squeal Gods praises in that position. We'd all be singin HALLELUIAH.

We'd all be instant converts. Was it freewill? Never. It's pure threat.

I'm not saying threat isn't an effective tool mind you. But it is what it is.

Again I disagree. There are a lot of people out there who believe in hell, but still do not follow Christ.

I doubt very much that the option to disobey will still be on the table in heaven.

The option will be there the desire will not be. Why? Because everyone who is in heaven loves God with their whole hearts, souls, minds, bodies. With the intensity of the love that will be in heaven, no one will have the desire to break that love.

Who said we aren't slaves right now?

Jesus and St. Paul for starters.

Jn 15: [11] These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. [12] This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you. [15] I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.

Rm 8: [14] For whosoever are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [15] For you have not received the spirit of bondage again in fear; but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Father). [16] For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. [17] And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Gal 4: [4] But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law: [5] That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons. [6] And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father. [7] Therefore now he is not a servant, but a son. And if a son, an heir also through God.

No amount of supposed 'freewill' is going to be used to justify our eternal habitations.

True. No one is saved by their own works, on this we can agree.

Not quite. There is a substantial difference between created perfection and The Perfection of God The Creator. They are not the same. A perfect devil is what? Is what? Yeah, still a devil in all his adverse perfection.

Considering that perfect devil is an oxy moron...

God created all things including the power of evil. Evil doesn't exist in a vacuum apart from God nor did it just pop up out of itself.
The observation is that God Himself made 'all things' for His Pleasure. Only He knows what that is and only HE can extract a Perfect Outcome.

Actually evil cannot be created because it is not a substance. Christianity is not on any level a dualistic religion. God did not create good and evil, so that for pleasure He could watch them fight. Read Genesis. Everything God created He said it was good. Genesis or for that matter any other place in the Bible that speaks of God's creative act never mentions that evil was God's handiwork. Evil is the result of sin. Sin is abhorred by God, and if that is true; then why on earth would God create that which He hates?

The topic is OSAS. Did you convert?

No, but just because I do not believe in OSAS doesn't mean that I don't have knowledge of the condition of my relationship with God. That is one of the drawbacks of the OSAS idea. You truly don't know nor can you know if you are truly saved. There are a bunch of people out there who are just like you and others on the forum, that were gung-ho about Christ and church and read their Bibles who 20 years later for one reason or another left the Church. Someone like that you would say was never saved to begin with. Well for 20 years they sure thought just like you that they were saved, yet they ended up not being truly. So the question is, how can you truly know for a fact that you are not one of those who are not truly saved? And if it is obvious to the person that is saved that they are saved, were these people for however long were just being deceived?

Don't recall citing Ezekiel with you. Perhaps you can elaborate?

I provided a few chapters from Ezekiel for you to read at your convenience. From your comments I thought that you read those chapters, it seems that I misunderstood. When I get time I will post at least one of those chapters.

 

[squint]

The position never presented what you are claiming.

God is apparently in need of suitable performances.

Only if they have faith.

Do you (or anyone for that matter) have a measuring device for this matter?

No, and I didn't make that inclination either. The Catholic position as illustrated at the council of Trent, is that it requires God's free gift of grace to elevate our wills enough so that we can make a free choice.

As prior noted man's will is not then categorically alone in the matter. And there is also the will of Satan mixing with man as well. To slap the term 'free' on man is a severe misnomer when all the parties are in view.

The fact that believers can be again snared by the enemy also means matters of falling are not only matters of man's will. And it also means that such may very well fall in this present life. It doesn't mean they are eternally lost. There is no written record to justify any believer being eternally lost. Not even the RCC has determined that. It is merely surmised on their part and left open as 'possibly not' as well.

I disagree with your point here. You are limiting God's power and His providence.

And perhaps you are just as guilty on the other end of the scale. Even orthodoxy allows for the possibility of overwhelming grace.

The power of God's providence is that it INCLUDES our freely made decisions and yet turns out just the way God' ultimately wills. That is the reason why predestination is a mystery.

And as prior noted the term free is a misnomer as there are factually at least 2 or more other wills in play 'in man,' that being both Gods and the devils. To term such wills as free is laughable.

I don't have to guess. It is what it is. If you believe God is omnipotent, then God could have saved us quite frankly in an infinite number of ways.

I could list 50 or 60 scriptural ways to be saved inclusive of providing a cold cup of water and not losing the reward for doing so.

And as an RCC member you should know that good works does allow for salvation as well even for those who do not know Christ.

Well originally He did make us exactly like Jesus in the sense of His humanity as both Adam and Eve were without sin.

Again, that is your group surmising that Adam had no sin until the actual act. But equally unfortunate is that you all recite that 'we have sinned in THOUGHT, word and deed' almost at every service. Adam could and did sin LONG before the actual act of external disobedience, internally. So did Eve. And their sin was just like everyone's sin, that being 'of the devil.'

The proclivity to view sin in a man alone as a freestanding agent in an alone vacuum is VOID of fact and therefore so is the false judgments attached to it.

God did not force Adam and Eve to sin,

God Himself bound all men to disobedience and planted us all in weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural body that is subject to intrusion by foreign adverse spiritual entities. You are welcome to dismiss this scriptural reality in the quest to only blame and accuse mankind and exonerate God from any responsibility.

but rather Adam and Eve freely choose to disobey God and separated themselves from God. It is false to believe that the human race was created to be sinners. The Bible supports quite the opposite.

Again, mere supposition. The case can more be made that where the Word is sown, there Satan enters the heart to steal (sin) in man and that is exactly what happened to both Adam and Eve, the evidence laid out well before the final act of external sin.

Your right she didn't make a choice inside a vacuum.

Well bravo. She wasn't even formed yet when the LAW came to Adam to 'do not eat.' When then did she take the wrap and the bait? Do you think Adam had a hard time recounting the LAW to her? Bad memory?

But rather she made a free choice of affirmation out of her love for her God. If her choice did not matter, then why did the author of Luke make it a point to write down an account of her decision?

More likely she was internally deceived by the presence of the adversary, a being that was not her.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

If you doubt the principle just look up who was speaking through Peter's lips and you should hear SATAN speaking from Peter as well. And entering Judas as well. So WHY is it that the RCC misses this oh so basic FACT and routinely insists that these things are only matters of MAN? I say they just can't read the open facts and are led themselves to NOT SEE the obvious other party and instead blame man, which is what an accuser does.


This is long enough for now.

s

 

[Christos Anesti]

OSAS could be true by definition under some formulations. If one defines saved as " going to heaven" for example. If you don't end up going to heaven then you aren't/ weren't really saved. Thus all those who are "really" saved are always saved by definition. If you ARE going to heaven then you are going there obviously. Who actually has foreknowledge to make such a statement about other people though?

The Christian tradition I follow doesn't look too exclusively at a one time conversion experience ("getting saved") as the alpha and omega of Christianity. There is also the ongoing salvational process of theosis/ divinization, sanctification, acquiring of the Holy Spirit, sacraments, liturgical action, compassionately serving others, and walking the Christian path that takes center stage.

 

[South Bound]

No, they don't. They indicate that those who are saved will persevere. Simple. Similarly, those who don't are the people who were not among the saved.

Correct. It's the Biblical doctrine of the preservation of the saints. What's she's suggesting is that Christ will not complete the good work He began in us.

 

[South Bound]

You must accept all of scripture, not just selected verses that fit with your predetermined position.

Is that why literally every verse you just posted was taken out of context?

They do prove the point which is why you never address then. Please tell us why these verses are irrelevant to OSAS believers.

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

First of all, this verse is part of a prophecy about Israel, not a declaration that one can lose their salvation.

Second, 2 Chronicles takes place under the Old Covenant when salvation was corporate and not individual. There was no regeneration and the Holy Spirit did not indwell as He does under the New Covenant.

So, not only is that a swing and a miss, but it shows that you don't have a clue how one is saved or what regeneration and salvation entail.

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

Too bad you didn't keep reading. The very next verse says "
13if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself."

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Actually, verse 9 tells us this is speaking of the unsaved, not the saved.

Here are the preceeding verses you would have posted, had you been honest enough to post your verse in context:

"9then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials,d and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulgee in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,f while they feast with you. 14They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slavesg of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. "

What part of that sounds even remotely like a born again believer?

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Yep. That's why we have assurance in the preservation of the saints.

 

[Albion]

OSAS could be true by definition under some formulations. If one defines saved as " going to heaven" for example. If you don't end up going to heaven then you aren't/ weren't really saved. Thus all those who are "really" saved are always saved by definition. If you ARE going to heaven then you are going there obviously. Who actually has foreknowledge to make such a statement about other people though?

The Christian tradition I follow doesn't look too exclusively at a one time conversion experience ("getting saved") as the alpha and omega of Christianity. There is also the ongoing salvational process of theosis/ divinization, sanctification, acquiring of the Holy Spirit, sacraments, liturgical action, compassionately serving others, and walking the Christian path that takes center stage.

Yes, we know that; but remember that if one IS indeed among the saved, he will necessarily value "walking the Christian path," etc. You can't have the former without the latter.

 

[Erose]

Yes, we know that; but remember that if one IS indeed among the saved, he will necessarily value "walking the Christian path," etc. You can't have the former without the latter.

So I guess it becomes a "What comes first? The chicken or egg?" question.

 

[Albion]

So I guess it becomes a "What comes first? The chicken or egg?" question.

Uh no. That would mean that devotions, compassion, etc. would EARN you salvation.