Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[squint]

I wonder if those who "have a falling out" with God were really saved to begin with or were merely providing lip service in their own misunderstanding of the Faith. just my insight into the matter.

I personally know scores of ray the 4 step sinners prayer: christians who are not involved with christianity whatsoever. Personally I still think they are saved, but MANY just leave the religious systems behind for numerous reasons. And rightfully so in most cases. It would be an insult to Christ to say He does not honor the call or honored their prayer, even if not 'in the way some other person dictates.'

When I repeated a prayer with an RCC priest one time he said 'did you really mean that?' To me that shows that even they doubt the effectiveness of their own standardized repetitions. How could I 'really really' believe the packaged dictated prayer of some other imperfect person anyway? Because it passed some imposed doctrinal sniff test?

Oh well, I digress.

I can live in a chicken coop, eat chicken feed, wear a chicken suit, but am I chicken because I say I am and what I do? Perhaps all christians should ask themselves this question at least once after they come to Christ.

Agreed. I examine myself constantly and in the end I DO NOT TRUST even my own versions of Jesus. The only credible way I've ever found to examine where I am is to go to THE WORD and find out. The Word and The Spirit are ALWAYS in agreement. I have to line up my own shortcomings from there. Nobody else can do that for me and most people could care less anyway.

s

 

[Albion]

Those who think that salvation can be lost are inherently saying either that Satan is stronger than God or that God is faithless. Neither of those impresses me very much.

There are many of us who have left certain forms of christian sectarianism.

We have left the RCC version of Jesus (as their package deal only requirements) or the charismatic versions of Jesus or the hardline determinist versions of Jesus....and many of these sects would consider such as lost or potentially lost.

But if one is born again, Jesus never leaves them or forsakes them. This I know from experience, having left many versions of false Jesus behind me.

The Real God in Christ can only make Himself know to anyone by Himself. Others are just sharing pale reflections, which I have no problem with either. Jes sayin.

s

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Those who think that salvation can be lost are inherently saying either that Satan is stronger than God or that God is faithless. Neither of those impresses me very much.

Wrong.

God gave us free will. He won't stop us from walking away.

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[Albion]

Wrong.

God gave us free will. He won't stop us from walking away.

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

We've already mentioned that those verses don't prove your point or even refer to it.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

We've already mentioned that those verses don't prove your point or even refer to it.

They do prove the point which is why you never address then. Please tell us why these verses are irrelevant to OSAS believers.


2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[Erose]

I would suspect that sharing in Perfection would not have to include the option of adversity.

Why would it? As St. Augustine once said "I am never freer than when I am obeying you." Obedience from someone who is free, is by far a greater gift than from one who isn't free. Squint, we are not slaves. God doesn't want slaves in heaven. He wants sons and daughters. He wants sons and daughters who love Him and want to serve Him. He doesn't want slaves that have to serve him. That isn't love, that is oppression; and since we know that God is Agape, then we should know that oppression is not His cup of tea.

For my sights adversity and evil are Gods servants, as all things are.

Adversity, yes; but evil, no. Evil is the depravity of good, and thus evil is not something that God created.

You are welcome to review my post #5 in the current 'Calvinism/Arminianism' thread for some minor examples. Calvin was close, but no horseshoe.

And with Arminiamism, they certainly have an eye for the required 'tension' between good and bad decisions/actions, but again, there are other avenues of understandings that are much better.

I'm neither Arminian or Calvin. So I don't have a dog in that fight.

Yes, I believe that's the case as OSAS draws nearly entirely from N.T. statements to that effect.

I'm sure it does, but from not the whole NT.

Well, the RCC believes in the Trinity but that doesn't make everything they believe Gospel either, so that's kind of a false comparison isn't it?

Why wouldn't it. Everything that we believe is the Gospel.

I don't doubt any believer can fall back into the clutches of our enemies. That doesn't mean that we should toss them to the wolves. Conveying eternal torture to fallen soldiers is not my favorite form of theology. Nor do I believe God does that either.

If we know God we WILL taste the fire of the enemies. Some are bound to fall, and if we are honest, we all know we fall to certain degrees in any case of measures. To be a believer a certain death is in fact a requirement.

When a soldier is wounded or dead on the field, we have the gift of healing which in Catholic circles we call the Sacrament of Confession.

Proverbs 24:16
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Would you commit that fallen just man, fallen seven times, to hell? Unlikely.

If a man is just then no he won't go to hell. But if he ceases to be just then yes he will be deprived of his reward.

Since we are going back to the OT, perhaps it may be good reading for you to read Ezekiel chapters 18 and 33.

God Is Eternally Merciful to those who will receive Mercy.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I posted numerous verses of scripture in defense of the Biblical doctrine of eternal security and the best you can do is "Nuh-uh". ...

I believe she was talking about the way you mischaracterized Arminianism, not about the barrage of verses you belched.

 

[Albion]

They do prove the point which is why you never address then.

No, they don't. They indicate that those who are saved will persevere. Simple. Similarly, those who don't are the people who were not among the saved.

 

[NorrinRadd]

You deny the Biblical doctrine eternal security. That is calling Christ a liar.

Calling OSAS proponents misinterpreters of Scripture is not the same as calling Christ a liar.

 

[Erose]

Those who think that salvation can be lost are inherently saying either that Satan is stronger than God or that God is faithless. Neither of those impresses me very much.

Or that human beings have at least some level of free will to either choose or deny; and after choosing then to no longer choose. There is a reason why Christ told us that we need to pick up our cross DAILY and follow Him.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

No, they don't. They indicate that those who are saved will persevere. Simple. Similarly, those who don't are the people who were not among the saved.

That's what your dogma says. That's not what scripture says:


2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

 

[Albion]

That's what your dogma says. That's not what scripture says

Yeh, it does.

Are we through now, or would you like another round of non-discussion?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Yeh, it does.

Are we through now, or would you like another round of non-discussion?

That's up to you.

Here's an easy question for you:

Does a man reap what he sows?

 

[squint]

Why would it? As St. Augustine once said "I am never freer than when I am obeying you." Obedience from someone who is free, is by far a greater gift than from one who isn't free.

What you are presenting there is the 'God NEEDS my choices/actions in order to justify MYSELF being saved.'

For the record I generally reject the 'God is in NEED' of anything scenarios other than the extraction of His Own Pleasures, which I really have no idea of anyway.

Squint, we are not slaves.

Never said we were. Your scenario dictates that we earn our salvation by our satisfaction of Gods Needs from us. I just don't buy into that particular package.

In my eyes God Is Perfect and I really don't have any idea what Perfect that is. I know for sure God is not 'in need' of anything that I might have, that's a certainty.

God doesn't want slaves in heaven.

And I would only say that is your imagination of 'what God wants.'

I wrote a little ditty quite a few years back about WHAT GOD WANTS? that went something like this:

Premise 1: God hates sin

Premise 2: Anything that is not God is less than Perfection (God)

Premise 3: God (Perfection) created all things for His Pleasure

Premise 4: Evil exists as an automatic result of less than Perfection

Premise 5: Perfection (God) by virtue of being The Creator of all things controls and guarantees the outcome the full
spectrum of all things and uses of all things for His Pleasure as ONLY He will solely and PERFECTLY determine

Premise 6: Perfection is none the less Perfection IF all things serve The Pleasure of Perfection and less than Perfection (all
things) are allowed by Perfection to ultimately serve His Perfect Pleasure.

Premise 7: God as Perfection is Great Enough to create control and use good and evil for His Perfect Pleasure, the exact and ultimate specifics of which are determinable and known only to and by Perfection

Premise 8: All things less than Perfection will serve Perfection to the ultimate satisfaction of Perfections Pleasures.

Premise 9: There are no permanent flaws in or by Perfection IF Perfections Perfect Pleasures are served by His creation OF "all things" which are subject to SERVE His Perfect Satisfaction of Perfect Pleasure.

Final Premise 10: Only Perfection as Perfection can totally know and guarantee the outcome of His Perfect Pleasure and Perfect Satisfaction

We can presume from this construct that the final result of the creation of less than Perfection by Perfection will result in The Perfect Pleasure of Perfection, therefore what Perfection produces is Perfect Pleasure ONLY to the Satisfactions and PERFORMANCES of Perfection.

He wants sons and daughters. He wants sons and daughters who love Him and want to serve Him. He doesn't want slaves that have to serve him. That isn't love, that is oppression; and since we know that God is Agape, then we should know that oppression is not His cup of tea.

And I'd say yer just guessin'

I'd also say again that God is NOT IN NEED of anything I have. If He is, HE is in trouble.

Adversity, yes; but evil, no. Evil is the depravity of good, and thus evil is not something that God created.

And we would disagree on that as well.

Anything that exists does so for Gods Sole Pleasure and that includes the 'power of evil.'

If a man is just then no he won't go to hell. But if he ceases to be just then yes he will be deprived of his reward.

I'd suggest your view of 'man' is not accurate or scriptural.

Since we are going back to the OT, perhaps it may be good reading for you to read Ezekiel chapters 18 and 33.

I've read the entirety of the text continually for decades now. I am very familiar with The Word on multiple levels. I'm also pretty good at legal docs so I might have a leg up on some structures and understandings in the law arena.

s

 

[Albion]

That's up to you.

Consider the following statement:

But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Is that a statement of fact, or only a warning about the consequences of falling away so that you don't do it? You probably say it's the latter, but it's actually the former, even if you cannot get your mind around it. Those who are saved are those who endure. Those who do not endure are obviously not among the saved. It's a statement of fact.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Consider the following statement:



Is that a statement of fact, or only a warning about the consequences of falling away so that you don't do it? You probably say it's the latter, but it's actually the former, even if you cannot get your mind around it. Those who are saved are those who endure. Those who do not endure are obviously not among the saved. It's a statement of fact.

Answer this question and you will understand the verse above:

Does a man reap what he sows?

 

[Albion]

Answer this question and you will understand the verse above:

Does a man reap what he sows?

I'm still working on getting through to you about Eternal Security. Maybe later we can take up other subjects.

 

[squint]

I'm still working on getting through to you about Eternal Security. Maybe later we can take up other subjects.

I know for a fact that man can not sow Perfection.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

I'm still working on getting through to you about Eternal Security. Maybe later we can take up other subjects.

Why won't you answer this simple question?

You and I both know that in order for you to answer scripturally you would be undermining your dogma.

You must accept all of scripture, not just selected verses that fit with your predetermined position.

 

[PaladinValer]

Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, even though the Bible clearly outlines that salvation is eternal? That is, salvation is by grace through faith and it is something that cannot be taken from you.

Except that this is not the historic teaching and we have 2,000 years of continued Biblical exegesis as proof.

Such theology is comparatively modern. Despite how its adherents like to twist St. Augustine of Hippo's words, he taught that there was human cooperation involved and that the grace and gift of of preservation enabled the individual to "run the race" as it were.

The thing is that God chooses us and we respond. He doesn't let go of us once we're a Child of God.

Yet we can let go of Him.

Sometimes it seems like such denominations haven't viewed the Bible in its entire scope, interpreting. What is your take on this subject?

I think interpreting the Holy Scripture without reading it in context and ignoring 2,000 years of continuous exegesis along with quote-mining arguably the greatest expert in the West is dangerous.