Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Erose]

No one is going to disagree with the scriptures. What you might ask yourself is do you always and only do 'sheep works?'

Fact is when we don't do sheep works we are in fact doing goat works by not doing sheep works.

Again, when you act like a goat, then refer to 1John 1:9. Confess your sins (with a humble and contrite heart) and He will forgive you.

The Jews do not have a position of eternal torture or eternal death.

Depending upon what period of Judaism you look at. An afterlife wasn't even considered early on. Wasn't even mentioned in the Torah at all. That is the reason why the Sadducees were against the idea.

Then there was developed this idea of Sheol, which was a dark gloomy place that all the dead both good and bad went to.

After the destruction of the 1st temple, you begin to see in the prophets a development of the resurrection of the dead; but it wasn't until the period of just before the coming of Jesus did the idea that the righteous dead and the damned were separated from each other after death, i.e. Abraham's bosom. But even at this point the Jews in general didn't have the view that there was a possibility that the righteous dead could go to heaven. That just wasn't part of their theology. Christianity changed that view, because what did Jesus' death and resurrection do? It opened the gates of heaven to the righteous. Before Christ's sacrifice and raising the gates of heaven were closed; but Christ's cross changed that.

The RCC believes in universal atonement. Many say, well, we might as well just sin then if that is the case. Which is similar to the leap you made with OSAS.

Please stop referring to what you think the RCC teaches. Like I have shown more than once your viewpoint on our beliefs are extremely flawed. I corrected you on this position more than once. The RCC teaches that none are excluded from Christ's atonement, IF... and I repeat if they believe and are baptized. We don't believe, as the quote I provided in the last post on hell points out, that God predestines anyone to go to hell.

Most OSAS adherents know that to let ones guard down with the enemies of our souls, the devil and his messengers, we can again be taken as slaves to sin including the sin of unbelief AND that such would suffer resulting LOSS, but that does not equate to eternal torture in fire or God in Christ abandoning such.

This view contradicts Ezekiel 18.

There are other avenues to view in this matter. Many people who are on the frontlines of ministry are taken because they are in heated battle with evil forces. And they DO get taken down as casualties of WAR. This does not mean God abandons them. For no other reason they are warnings given to us by God of the facts of real enemies, and in that they serve us.

God abandons no one, on this we can agree. But we can abandon God.

I have no need to deride fallen warriors to their eternal demise because that is hypocrisy. None of us can say we have no sin and be in Truth.

True. But for those who have fallen, we need to pray for them and hope that they turn back to God, before it is too late.

 

[squint]

Again, when you act like a goat, then refer to 1John 1:9. Confess your sins (with a humble and contrite heart) and He will forgive you.

I didn't see anywhere where goats got off the hook.

Depending upon what period of Judaism you look at. An afterlife wasn't even considered early on. Wasn't even mentioned in the Torah at all. That is the reason why the Sadducees were against the idea.

It was a debated point. The pharisees did adhere to that view. And it again points somewhat to the conversation we still engage in on these dynamic tensions.

Then there was developed this idea of Sheol, which was a dark gloomy place that all the dead both good and bad went to.

There was not then and still is not today any eternal hell in Judaism.

After the destruction of the 1st temple, you begin to see in the prophets a development of the resurrection of the dead;

I'd suggest a closer read of the O.T. The pharisees didn't just conjure up the resurrection of the dead out of nothing. It was already written.

One of my favorite O.T. instances was reiterated by Jesus in Luke 4:4 but it was taught to O.T. Jews through Moses. Jesus turned up the volume.

but it wasn't until the period of just before the coming of Jesus did the idea that the righteous dead and the damned were separated from each other after death, i.e. Abraham's bosom.

Everything in the N.T. sprang from the O.T. Word of God. And the Jews never eternally damned their people like some christians do, ever.

But even at this point the Jews in general didn't have the view that there was a possibility that the righteous dead could go to heaven. That just wasn't part of their theology. Christianity changed that view, because what did Jesus' death and resurrection do? It opened the gates of heaven to the righteous. Before Christ's sacrifice and raising the gates of heaven were closed; but Christ's cross changed that.

Eternal life has been taught from Day 1. Every Jew knew that Adam was Gods son and that they were Gods children. That's automatic inference of eternal life.

Please stop referring to what you think the RCC teaches.

I'm just saying RCCers right here at this site have different views on this particular matter than you.

God abandons no one, on this we can agree. But we can abandon God.

Circular reasoning. There is zero benefit for any believer to heap eternal damnation on any fallen believer. When they do they take damnation into their own heart and there, they are in a form of hell themselves, already.

s

 

[Erose]

You are right. The RCC never determines who is in hell. For that is not her place to do. /QUOTE]
Never? What about Judas? I just read something in the CCC concerning him that sounds quite contrary to that statement. But perhaps some scripture I'm missing might explain that.

Concerning Judas, we can only follow what Jesus said about him. It was Jesus who said concerning Judas in Matt 26: [24] The Son of man indeed goes, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

The point is we do have a list of Saints, but we don't have a list of the Damned.

 

[Erose]

I believe it's obvious from the outlined verses that this verse belongs to those who are still in a state of depravity, not yet saved, in need of repentance, compare OC to NC receiving a heart of flesh and not of stone.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So you are saying that God has changed? Me I don't think so since Scripture says that God and His ways are unchanging. That passage is speaking of a righteous man turning wicked, and a wicked man turning righteous. The NC didn't change this reality. We still see today righteous men turning wicked and wicked men turning righteous.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Concerning Judas, we can only follow what Jesus said about him. It was Jesus who said concerning Judas in Matt 26: [24] The Son of man indeed goes, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

The point is we do have a list of Saints, but we don't have a list of the Damned.

Thank you Erose. That answers my question..

 

[Erose]

Some RCC members have said the exact opposite of what you see.

What some RCC members believe or not, isn't always in line with what the Church teaches. We are not speaking of what some members believe, we are speaking of what the Church teaches. That is what matters to this conversation.

Unfortunately without the 'threat' many believers just wouldn't believe or obey.

Yeah, some need a threat every once in a while. When my kids were little, me trying to reason with them, didn't keep them from trying to stick a fork in the electrical socket. Smacking that hand a few times made them realize that I was serious so they stopped trying.

Quite frankly when we first become Christians, we are children who need to be fed milk, and as such God needs to treat us as children. Discipline and the threat thereof does wonders at the beginning. But as we grow in Christ we should grow away from doing the will of God out of fear, but instead our motivating factor becomes love. Just as I my children have matured and now do not disobey, as much, because they don't want to hurt their mother; and they have begun to realize the wisdom of our counsel.

And equally unfortunate is that a handmedown system from old priest castes, even from the arena of unbelievers in the worldly system ruled by threat and force in order to get the populace to obey.

I consider it an unfortunate parcel of the ruling class. And I don't believe Jesus exercised that kind of authority whatsoever.

Well Jesus handed down to us that system, and I will stick with that system; and have no wish to follow a system made up by men, who want to be "saved" but still be able to go out and do all the sinning they want to do.

 

[Erose]

Thank you Erose. That answers my question..

Your welcome. Did I do so satisfactorily?

 

[squint]

What some RCC members believe or not, isn't always in line with what the Church teaches. We are not speaking of what some members believe, we are speaking of what the Church teaches. That is what matters to this conversation.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

(Not sure if Free Will Baptists and Seventh-day Baptists have both figured out that the Bible does not support OSAS -- does anyone here know the answer to that?) ...

F. Leroy Forlines and Robert Picirilli are both Free Will Baptists. The former wrote Classical Arminianism; the latter wrote Grace, Faith, and Free Will, which contrasts Calvinism with Classical Arminianism (the author prefers the term "Reformation Arminianism"). Their view as I understand it is that one does not "lose" salvation by committing sins, but one can choose to relinquish it; such a choice is irreversible.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Is there an equivelant law for relinguishing rights to parents? usually patterns are set

 

[NorrinRadd]

Indeed. But then again the non-OSAS adherents really are not all that sure they have salvation anyway. It can only be a 'maybe' and at best 'reasonably assured' based on their most recent performances.

...

Interesting point. While they believe that their salvation is in serious jeopardy of being lost at any moment in their lives, they actually are offended that other Christians trust God to be faithful--as Jesus assured his disciples they should do.
...

This MAY be kinda sorta true of some expressions of Wesleyan Arminianism. It is not true of Classical Arminianism.

That is straw man speculation and is refuted easily from the Arminian POV. Arminians can know for certain that they are saved today but cannot know for certain that they will choose to remain saved ten years from today.

The OSAS Christian cannot even know that - because under OSAS they often teach that they must retro delete today's assurance if ten years from today they give up the faith and choose to live like the devil.

Yup.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Is there an equivelant law for relinguishing rights to parents? usually patterns are set

I'm not sure if this was kind of directed to me, but it directly follows my post, so I'll treat it as if that were the intent.

Scripture uses a wide variety of images to portray salvation -- birth, adoption, marriage, resurrection, healing, forensic justification, change of citizenship, growing as a crop, being grafted into a vine, and probably others.

Certain passages in the Gospels and Epistles give the impression that presence of "bad actions" or absence of "good actions" can directly lead to a genuine believer losing salvation (e.g. the "vice lists" in 1 Cor. 6, Gal. 5, and Eph. 5; the Parable of the Soils, the teaching on the sheep and the goats, the warning about unfruitful branches). Other passages give the impression that neither obtaining nor retaining salvation depends on presence of "good actions" or absence of "bad actions" (e.g. the teaching from John 6 that the only "work" needed is belief; the teaching from Gal. 3 that we complete our salvation as we began, not by deeds but by believing what we heard; the teaching from Col. 2 that rules such as "Don't touch that! Don't taste that!" are useless). Still others suggest the legitimate possibility of genuine believers "falling away" (e.g. 1 Tim. 4, Heb. 6, Heb. 10). Everyone accepts some of these relatively directly, and finds ways to squeeze in the others or explain them away.

Roughly speaking, the Classical Arminian approach, in my understanding, is to "squeeze in" the passages that suggest we can "lose" salvation based on deeds by saying that an ongoing pattern of "doing bad" and "not doing good" can eventually harden us so that we choose to turn away.

 

[Albion]

This MAY be kinda sorta true of some expressions of Wesleyan Arminianism. It is not true of Classical Arminianism.

I replied to that comment in post #229.

 

[Erose]

And your point is? I do believe somewhere in the ton of posts between you and I, I did profess that Jesus's death and resurrection, was for all mankind; but there is one thing that you keep forgetting about. No where in Scripture does it claim that God forced us to take His redemption does it? In fact we get the opposite. Did Jesus die for all mankind? Yes. Is His sacrifice sufficient to save all mankind? Yes, and superabundantly more so. Will all mankind be saved? No. No they will not. Why? Because of the very fact that God does not force Himself on anyone. I am beginning to feel like a parrot here, but just go back to Mark 16:16, when Jesus says what? Go out and proclaim the good news that everyone is saved, so they can keep on going about their business as if nothing happened? No! He says proclaim the good new, and those who BELIEVE and are BAPTIZED will be SAVED; and those who believe not shall be CONDEMNED.

Did not God redeem all of Israel through Moses? How many people of that generation entered the promise land? Two, Joshua and Caleb. That is it. Why? Because of sin.

But back to the point here. From what I am gathering from your posts is that you believe:

a) all people are saved.
b) but some people go to hell.
c) that once you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you can then keep on sinning as much as you want, without even asking for forgiveness, because well confessing your sins doesn't really matter.
d) the reason why you can keep on sinning is because...well it isn't really you sinning but the devil sinning through you.

Did I miss or misrepresent your position in anyway?

 

[squint]

And your point is? I do believe somewhere in the ton of posts between you and I, I did profess that Jesus's death and resurrection, was for all mankind; but

Yes, I am quite familiar with the 'word play' involved in this matter.

there is one thing that you keep forgetting about. No where in Scripture does it claim that God forced us to take His redemption does it?

Why is it that you do not see that the unbeliever is blinded by the god of this world, a more powerful blinding force? See 2 Cor. 4:4. See Romans 11:8. See Mark 4:15. See every seed parable in the N.T.

Yet you see only man. You do not see Gods Providence in this matter. You do not see the blinder.

You blame and accuse the blinded, in the case of fallen believers. You do not even perceive the involvement of either God or of Satan. And you blame only man.

IF some devil blocks some poor believers ears and causes them to fall is that not a testimony to the reality of the blinder and a confirmation of Gods Words? Why then do you toss such to the eternal flames?

Do you think some blinded believer is even close to capable of eliminating the Word and Work of God in Christ?

I don't because there is more than 'just a mere mortal' involved with all these matters. Why is it that you can't see this?

In fact we get the opposite. Did Jesus die for all mankind? Yes. Is His sacrifice sufficient to save all mankind? Yes, and superabundantly more so. Will all mankind be saved? No. No they will not.

Your sect has assuredly NOT ruled out the possibility of prevailing Grace. Those of you who go past that FAIR MARK by your sect are in fact treading where you do not belong. It is only unfortunate that the board here is so filled with fear that they will not even allow a deeper discussion of this matter so I'll leave it at that....

BUT as it pertains to fallen believers, God Is and remains TRUE to His Own Word, He will not abandon or torture them in fire forever, period. The blinded will not usurp the very real work of Christ for the believers regardless of their falling. They may well be tossed in this current life. Are we not all tossed when we sin? Why then do you deride them for the sin of unbelief when we all sin? I'd say you are partially inclined to favor your own sins and the methods to get yourself off the hook and very unkind to the fallen blind, that's ALL.

So what else is new in the world of threats and condemnation of religion? What do you expect to fall into when you play that game?

s

 

[Rick Otto]

"He will not abandon or torture them in fire forever, period."

1Cor3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as byfire.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Your welcome. Did I do so satisfactorily?

Yes and here is your shiny new button

 

[Erose]

Yes and here is your shiny new button

I prefer blue, but you know what they say, don't look a gifted horse in the mouth.

 

[keembo]

I am one who doesn't believe in once saved always saved for the following reasons. Jesus clearly stated that "I am the vine, and you are the branches." He indicated that if you remain in me and I in you then everything is fine, but if you do not "remain," you will be cut off. Jesus also states that there will be many who come saying "I am he," which in other words testify that Jesus is the Messiah, but he goes on to say "I never knew you." Paul cautioned several churches that there were those who had begun falling away and would be lost.

 

[Albion]

I am one who doesn't believe in once saved always saved for the following reasons. Jesus clearly stated that "I am the vine, and you are the branches." He indicated that if you remain in me and I in you then everything is fine, but if you do not "remain," you will be cut off. Jesus also states that there will be many who come saying "I am he," which in other words testify that Jesus is the Messiah, but he goes on to say "I never knew you." Paul cautioned several churches that there were those who had begun falling away and would be lost.

What that refers to is people who only give lip service to the Lord and were not actually saved. If they fell away, it doesn't refute OSAS.

In other words, if you fall away, we know that you were not among the saved and we have his word on it--"I NEVER knew you."