Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

[Jedi.Kep]

I am curious. How does Mark 10:25, Matt 19:14, and Luke 18:25: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." fit into the "prosperity teachings"?

Oh that's easy. Rich people trust in their riches to save them from all sorts of things and do not see their need for a Savior. Poor people have nothing to trust but the Savior.

Now, if a person is poor, and then becomes rich by following the Word, then are they automatically going to have a hard time entering the kingdom? Think of Abraham. Solomon. Joseph of Arimathea. David. All rich. All in the kingdom of God. It always comes down to 'What are you trusting in to save you?'

Add to my question Luke 6:20 and Luke 6:24: "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed [be ye] poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. ... But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation."

The biggest problem is balance. How do you balance these warnings to rich people against the Scriptures which say God blesses with prosperity? That is the real question here. Where is the middle of the road?? Everyone is either on one side of the ditch or the other, and since the road we travel is a narrow one, it is easy to get in the ditch one way or the other.

 

[lucaspa]

Now, if a person is poor, and then becomes rich by following the Word, then are they automatically going to have a hard time entering the kingdom? Think of Abraham. Solomon. Joseph of Arimathea. David. All rich. All in the kingdom of God.

You didn't answer your own question. Are you naming the norm or the exceptions to the rule? Earlier you said:
"Rich people trust in their riches to save them from all sorts of things and do not see their need for a Savior. Poor people have nothing to trust but the Savior."

So it seems as if you are saying that, yes, becoming rich automatically makes it more difficult to enter the kingdom: because now there is a very great temptation to trust in riches, whereas if you are poor there is no such temptation. Have I heard you correctly?

Doesn't prosperity theology make God a bit of a trickster? God "blesses" you with prosperity but that very prosperity tends to make you trust in the riches instead of God. Wouldn't it be easier if you as a Christian just scorned riches and never became rich? Then, as you said, you would have to rely on God, right?

 

[lucaspa]

The biggest problem is balance. How do you balance these warnings to rich people against the Scriptures which say God blesses with prosperity? That is the real question here.

I'm not supposed to discuss here, since I am of another denomination. Nor do I really wish to. I was mostly curious how prosperity theology handled the NT verses of Jesus' comments about prosperity.

All that said, perhaps the answers to different questions might help you with figuring out the balance. Has it occurred to you that the scriptures about "bless with prosperity" are from the OT? Have you considered the role of deity both in Israel of the OT and in the surrounding cultures of Israel?

Is it possible that, since Jesus came to change things, that he also changed the perceived role of God in regard to prosperity?

 

[Jedi.Kep]

You didn't answer your own question. Are you naming the norm or the exceptions to the rule? Earlier you said:
"Rich people trust in their riches to save them from all sorts of things and do not see their need for a Savior. Poor people have nothing to trust but the Savior."

So it seems as if you are saying that, yes, becoming rich automatically makes it more difficult to enter the kingdom: because now there is a very great temptation to trust in riches, whereas if you are poor there is no such temptation. Have I heard you correctly?

It's simple. Where do you put your trust. The poorest person on the planet can still suffer covetousness and not have a dime. The question is always, "What has your heart?" Money, or Jesus? You can't love both. It is always one or the other. If Jesus is the center of your life, then you can have all the money in the world and it will be the tool God intended it to be.

Doesn't prosperity theology make God a bit of a trickster?

No more than numerous other 'theological ideas' that I've seen come out of tradition. It all comes down to your heart before the Lord.

God "blesses" you with prosperity but that very prosperity tends to make you trust in the riches instead of God. Wouldn't it be easier if you as a Christian just scorned riches and never became rich?

Sure. You can live on handouts the rest of your life. That's your right, but I doubt God wants you to stay in that place. Here in America, our poorest trailer trash has more than many people do in Africa or Haiti. I suppose we can let the world have all the wealth, but then God's decree that the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just would be pretty empty then. If you divided up the wealth of the world evenly among every human being, we would each have ten million dollars. I suppose God doesn't want us to have any of that right? It's okay for the world to have our 'fair share' of the money so they can waste it on drugs, harlots, gambling and the like?

Christians need to learn how to handle money. Christians need to grow up, get in some Crown classes and understand how God wants his people to use money for the tool that it is to preach the gospel, feed our familes, fund our churches, and minister to the poor among us. Money is a tool, and one Christians do not need to be afraid of.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

@bobznew, I haven't read anything that people are saying in reply to your thread, but in reading your first statement I can see where your mindset is.

When I read most of those scriptures, I don't read that God is going to give me wealth because I desire it. I read it that God is going to give me the desires of my heart, which is not wealth. The desires of my heart are for God and God alone.

What you read is that God will make you prosperous because thats the desire of your heart and that is plain to see from your understanding of those scriptures.

Let me give you some knowledge that I have acquired. I ran a successful business that profited me a good quarter million a year. More then enough money for a man in his twenties. But it did not glorify God, it glorified me and distracted me from God. So God took it away from me so that I would focus on Him.

I have learned that it's the Devil that wants to make you prosperous in this world. Because it is the greatest distraction that one could ever have.

I don't want to be a billionaire. If God gave me that money, I would accept it from Him, thank Him, take ten percent and give 90% back to Him and His people.

Bobznew, I might consider repenting of this love for money that I read on your lips. For the root of all evil is the love of money.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

@bobznew, I haven't read anything that people are saying in reply to your thread, but in reading your first statement I can see where your mindset is.

When I read most of those scriptures, I don't read that God is going to give me wealth because I desire it. I read it that God is going to give me the desires of my heart, which is not wealth. The desires of my heart are for God and God alone.

What you read is that God will make you prosperous because thats the desire of your heart and that is plain to see from your understanding of those scriptures.

Let me give you some knowledge that I have acquired. I ran a successful business that profited me a good quarter million a year. More then enough money for a man in his twenties. But it did not glorify God, it glorified me and distracted me from God. So God took it away from me so that I would focus on Him.

I have learned that it's the Devil that wants to make you prosperous in this world. Because it is the greatest distraction that one could ever have.

I don't want to be a billionaire. If God gave me that money, I would accept it from Him, thank Him, take ten percent and give 90% back to Him and His people.

Bobznew, I might consider repenting of this love for money that I read on your lips. For the root of all evil is the love of money.

It always amazes me to see the 'fear of money' mindset. Money, in the hands of a mature Christian, is an excellent tool for reaching the lost, feeding the poor, and meeting the needs of the local church. Everyone is so afraid of having it, yet we have God telling us that the sinners wealth is laid up for the just. Clearly, God doesn't want the sinners to have it all. As long as Christians are afraid of money, the sinners will keep getting it and using it to mislead thousands of people.

Money is a tool. Don't be afraid to use it.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

It's not a fear of money that I have. It's that I don't care for money. Money provides YOU with what YOU need and God provides me with what I need.

YOU would be more assured having $1000 dollars in your account to pay the rent at months end then I would. I would be happy and content not having a single dollar in my account to pay for rent, but knowing that God is going to take care of it for me.

It doesn't matter what the sinners do to lead people astray from God, they can have all of the money in the world and God will still keep for himself a pure people.

I think that you need to rely more on God then your own abilities.

 

[probinson]

Well, awesome!

How's about you send all your money my way, seeing as how you have such a dislike for it? I mean, I don't share your disdain for money. As others have said in this thread, money is simply a tool. Much like a hammer, you can use it to construct something wonderful, or you can use it to completely destroy. When God is given first place in our lives, money is nothing more than yet another tool to fulfill His will and purpose for us.

I believe I've found a proper balance for money in my life, so any that you don't care for, if you send it my way, I can put to good use for His glory.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

Sounds like you're seeking the wrong thing probinson, and then justifying yourself by saying that you're going to use it for His glory.

What exactly would you do with any money that I sent to you? Build a big church, advertise to the public to come to your church. That would be for your glory my friend.

The extra money that God gives to me, I give to others that need it.

God doesn't need money to give you money in order for him to get glory. God can get donkeys to talk for Him. He doesn't need you or your money.

I think that you need to get your priorities straight. I would say that if you are a True Christian that practices daily repentance and obeying God, that you would accept a strong rebuking from me right now. Repent from the fact that you're love of money is stronger then your faith in God.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

It's not a fear of money that I have. It's that I don't care for money. Money provides YOU with what YOU need and God provides me with what I need.

YOU would be more assured having $1000 dollars in your account to pay the rent at months end then I would. I would be happy and content not having a single dollar in my account to pay for rent, but knowing that God is going to take care of it for me.

It doesn't matter what the sinners do to lead people astray from God, they can have all of the money in the world and God will still keep for himself a pure people.

I think that you need to rely more on God then your own abilities.

Way to throw the judgment around there fella! Whoa dude! I didn't know you had a heart x-ray machine! Suh-weet!

I'm reminded of the story of the guy who was on his roof with the flood waters rising. A boat comes by and the rescuers beg the man to get in the boat, but he yells out "God will take care of me!" The waters get higher and the guy is hugging his chimney. The boat returns again and the people beg the man to get in, yet he replies, "God will take care of me!"

Then the waters get so high the man is standing on top of his chimney with the water surrounding his ankles, and a helicopter flies by, lets down a rope and they pilot yells over the speaker, "Take the rope! We will save you!" Yet the guy yells out, "NO. God will save me!"

The man drowns.

At the gates of Heaven he meets Jesus and asks, "Lord! It is so good to see you in person! But I gotta know, Why didn't you save me?"

Jesus looks at him with pity and says, "What more did you want? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"

Don't miss the helicopter dude.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Sounds like you're seeking the wrong thing probinson, and then justifying yourself by saying that you're going to use it for His glory.

What exactly would you do with any money that I sent to you? Build a big church, advertise to the public to come to your church. That would be for your glory my friend.

The extra money that God gives to me, I give to others that need it.

God doesn't need money to give you money in order for him to get glory. God can get donkeys to talk for Him. He doesn't need you or your money.

I think that you need to get your priorities straight. I would say that if you are a True Christian that practices daily repentance and obeying God, that you would accept a strong rebuking from me right now. Repent from the fact that you're love of money is stronger then your faith in God.

LOL! Who the heck are you and just who do you think you are??

 

[probinson]

I think that you need to get your priorities straight. I would say that if you are a True Christian that practices daily repentance and obeying God, that you would accept a strong rebuking from me right now. Repent from the fact that you're love of money is stronger then your faith in God.

Wow! That's quite a damning assessment of me and my faith in God from reading only one post. You don't know who I am, or what I believe, and yet you feel justified to give me a "strong rebuking".

So anyway, no, I don't receive your strong rebuking. Contrary to your manipulative words, this doesn't mean I'm not a "True Christian", nor does it mean that I don't obey God. It simply means that I don't heed inaccurate, judgmental, holier-than-thou rebukings from random, online people I don't know and who sound nothing like my Father.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

I like how everybody throws around the DO NOT JUDGE! When you've all completely missed the boat yourselves on that scripture.

I'm not judging, I'm rebuking. To judge is to judge somebodies fate in Life or death. To rebuke is out of love in order to keep you on the path to heaven.

Take my comments as you will, but know that it's out of love for God first and my brothers second that I rebuke.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

That's a good assessment of where you are in your walk. I'm not scared to offend you. I'm angry when you offend my God.

I can assume from your answer that you don't have a foundation of daily repentance and you're not open to any rebuking.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

But then again I'm not God. He's letting me know that I should probably be more gentle with you.

 

[probinson]

I'm not judging, I'm rebuking.

Correct. You're rebuking something that you've judged incorrectly.

For example;

...you're love of money is stronger then your faith in God...

Grammatical errors aside, you've judged (incorrectly) that my "love of money" is stronger than my faith in God. Otherwise, there'd be nothing for you to rebuke. And that's just one example, of which there are shockingly many compared to the few posts you've made in this thread.

So take my comments as you will, but you are exhibitng a highly judgmental attitude, whether you admit to it or not. Loving your brothers in Christ doesn't mean you pass judgment on them and rebuke them for your incorrect judgments.

 

[probinson]

That's a good assessment of where you are in your walk.

Dude. Come down of your high horse for a second and LISTEN to yourself. How on earth could you possibly hope to have a "good assessment" of where I'm at in my walk from 2 posts on an Internet forum? You don't even know my name, and yet you presume to know where I'm at in my walk. Amazing.

I'm not scared to offend you.

I'm not scared to offend you either. And FTR, you have not offended me in the least.

I'm angry when you offend my God.

Good grief man, LISTEN to yourself! In what way have I offended God? (btw, He's my God too.)

I can assume from your answer that you don't have a foundation of daily repentance and you're not open to any rebuking.

Really? You can assume that because I don't listen to inaccurate judgments of myself from random people on the Internet that I don't have a foundation of daily repentance and I'm not open to rebuking?

If it makes you feel any better, I will admit this; this assessment is just as accurate as your assessment of my walk with God.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

Probby, listen. Your words are generated from your beliefs. I would NEVER say that I wanted somebody to give me sex if they had extra time and didn't need any.

I would if I was a wicked person. (Is sex a sin? NO. neither is money. I know this, so no need for you to correct me)

It's all about priorities Probs. When you make your priorities known like you do, you make yourself open to the community.

If I'm wrong.. then tell me, when was the last time you lay in tears over conviction of sin? When was the last time that you repented and how often do you do that?

I'm not judging you, I'm trying to get you to understand things from my point of view. I care for nothing but that God's name be Holy and set apart from all else.

 

[probinson]

Probby, listen. Your words are generated from your beliefs. I would NEVER say that I wanted somebody to give me sex if they had extra time and didn't need any.

Worst. Analogy. Ever.

It's all about priorities Probs. When you make your priorities known like you do, you make yourself open to the community.

Where did I make my priorities known? You said (IMO, rather foolishly) that you don't care for money. I asked you to put your money where your mouth is (so to speak) and send it to me if you dislike it so much. That tells you absolutely nothing about my priorities. It tells you that I don't have near the problem with money that you seem to have, and it tells you where you can get rid of the money that you don't care for.

If I'm wrong.. then tell me,

OK; You're wrong.

when was the last time you lay in tears over conviction of sin?

Why on earth would I waste time laying around in tears for something that Jesus Christ has already paid the price for in full? When I repent, I don't lay in tears. I rejoice that the blood of Jesus has washed me white as snow, and that because of His selfless act of pure Love for me and His amazing grace, I have been made righteous, not because I lay around and cry and feel sorry for myself, but ONLY because of what Jesus has done for me. No amount of my laying in tears can add anything more to what Jesus has already accomplished.

When was the last time that you repented and how often do you do that?

This is a bizarre question. This is kind of like asking me how often I tell my wife I love her. It's not something I schedule daily, nor is it something that I keep track of. Because of my relationship with my wife, I tell her I Love her on a regular basis.

Likewise, because of my relationship with my Savior, I repent often for missing it. I thank Him for His grace and His mercy toward me when I screw up. I thank Him that His Love covers a multitude of sins.

What you seem to be advocating is a works-based mentality, where if only you'll repent enough, or if only you'll lay around crying enough, then God will accept your repentance. But you can not earn what God offers freely.

I'm not judging you,

Yes, you are. And quite badly at that.

 

[jonathonbyrd]

"Why on earth would I waste time laying around in tears for something that Jesus Christ has already paid the price for in full?"

It's called conviction of sin. Something that you don't seem to have an understanding of. I'm not trying to be arrogant or sarcastic when I say that either.

You've got no clue what judgement is. But now that we're completely off topic with you defending yourself, let's go back to the money topic.