Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

[jonathonbyrd]

There's nothing wrong with preaching prosperity. It's not where I would start. I'm not concerned with prosperity because I'm not concerned with the things of this world. If I lived in a box I might think differently, but God has blessed me with a nice home and lots of good clients. Something that I'm very thankful of.

As the song goes, "I'd rather not gain the whole world and lose my soul."

When he's disciplining me by removing my finances, I don't want to hear from a pastor that things are going to be ok with a pat on the back. Neither do I want to be given worldly answers for financial problems. I don't want to look forward to times of prosperity. I don't care for the world.

All I want is to know how I can increase my Trust in God.

There's my answer more clear for you.

 

[probinson]

"You've got no clue what judgement is. But now that we're completely off topic with you defending yourself, let's go back to the money topic.

Actually, let's not.

It's abundantly clear to me that you are not interested in hearing what we actually believe, favoring your incorrect presuppositions and erratic judgments instead. Therefore, I can see no good reason to continue this discussion.

I don't know if you realized it or not, but you're in our house (the WoF forum), and the forum rules prohibit you from debating here since you do not identify yourself as WoF. I personally like to give people the benefit of the doubt at first, but now that I've done that and you've proven that you're clearly more interested in disparaging and rebuking people then you are in conversing politely, there's little reason for you to coniutnue to post in this forum, as posts like yours will be seen in violation of the forum rules.

 

[map4]

Like many have said it all comes down to where your heart is, your motives.

Just because someone says they would like to have money doesn't mean they 'love' money or covet it or love God less.
In the same vein, just because someone says they don't want money, or riches, doesn't mean they are more pure or holy or love God more.
The question is WHY are you saying you want money or don't want money.

I'm not ashamed to say I would like to have more money than I do. People can judge me all they want but so what. God knows my heart and knows why I desire what I do.
I have one son in college and another will start in another year.
One of my brothers was laid off after working 12 yrs for the same company and was out of work for a couple of months. Another brother has had his hours cut for the past year. I would like to be able to help both of them.
I have other family members and many friends that are struggling right now. I would love to have the finances to help them.

Or I suppose I could sound more holy and humble and say I don't desire to have money. Sure, that sounds good, and I know many who do sincerely mean that. But it's the other things that they do, gossip, judmental attitudes, negative attitudes, etc that make me go 'hmmm'.
Saying you don't desire money doesn't prove you are more holy, humble, or repentant.

 

[KingZzub]

Saying you don't desire money proves you are selfish.

If you have enough to take care of your needs, and that is enough for you then the question has to be asked: why are your needs important, but the needs of others do not move you?

I don't want just enough to pay my bills. I want to pay the bills of 10, or 100, or 1000 people. I want to have enough money to impact the world for Jesus.

I pastor a church and I am starting a radio ministry. In two weeks time we are having a weekend conference. All these things are blessing people and building people up and they all take MONEY. If I have more money, I can help and bless more people. It is really that simple.

In answer to the OP, why do people have a problem there are only two answers:

1. Ignorance
2. Tradition

Everything will come back to one of those two.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[lismore]

Blessings,
Ben

Hey there

Nice to see you back!

 

[KingZzub]

Not going to be around much, very busy in RL.

Church has a healing crusade in two weeks' time (August 21st - 22nd Tree of Life Church, London and Essex) and I am starting a radio ministry.

All awesome!

Thanks for the welcome. Good to hear from you again. Dundee still the same?

Blessings,
Ben

 

[lismore]

All the best with the healing crusade and the radio ministry!

A lot happens in Dundee for such a wee place. The Potter's House Church folded, the members have either gone to other churches, or to PH in Glasgow for a Sunday service.

I don't know if that's permanent, or if they were just struggling badly, but the church has packed up. Maybe they'll plant again in time!

Again, good to see you Ben

 

[KingZzub]

PH has been struggling for 20 years, I am amazed it actually closed. Wow!

 

[lismore]

PH has been struggling for 20 years, I am amazed it actually closed. Wow!

I don't know why exactly they closed, or if they will reopen at some future date. But yes it was pretty unexpected!

And a new church opened up about the same time, Deeper Life Bible Church, another African church. They meet on campus.

How are things with you?

 

[KingZzub]

Things are very well. 6 new people this morning! SIX! That is awesome! This time last year we had less than 6 people in the whole church!

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Things are very well. 6 new people this morning! SIX! That is awesome! This time last year we had less than 6 people in the whole church!

Great news King Z!

 

[watchtower08]

Well did Jesus speak when He said NARROW is the path that leads to life. Everything about Christianity is tied to the delicate BALANCE we have to walk. If we lean too far one way or the other, we'll fall off that path. That said, here is my problem with the prosperity teaching:

I was raised under the cultural relevance message. Want to know the main difference? The prosperity message speaks about what God wants to do FOR His people. The cultural relevance message speaks about what God wants to do THROUGH His people.

Most of the Christians I personally know are living with the deepest debt levels I have ever seen. This isn't prosperity. The prosperity message is just down right misleading. God wants followers of solid substance, who will stick with Him through the thick and thin, not just when their wallets are full.

Too many pastors I have heard say that when the crud hits the fan, those outside the body will be living in miserable poverty, they will see what we have, God's prosperity, they will want it, and they will come to Christ because of that. If that were truly God's strategy for winning souls, Christ would have been overjoyed to accept the rich young ruler into his fold. But what did Christ say: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom.

There seems to be many, many misconceptions over this. I was one of those who was called into deepest poverty, and to be houseless. Everyone around me, save two, told me I was either listening to a demon or possessed completely by one. Poverty can't be God's will, right? Yeah huh. Sure. Look at the evidence: men and women of God are either financially burdened, and/or living well beyond their means. I have Scriptures that somewhat back me up, but I won't go into it here. I think I have vented enough steam out over this. And yes, when I hear a prosperity message, I do become greatly upset: our financial situation has nothing to do with our spiritual state, nor is it a reflection of our spiritual state.

 

[KingZzub]

Watchtower08,

Surely before you criticize prosperity teachings it would be sensible to actually learn what they are.

Prosperity is not simply what God wants to do for you, but what He wants to do for you and through you. God cannot get it through you if He cannot get it to you! In other words, you cannot give away what you have never had.

The reason many Christians are in debt, poor and broke is because of what you said earlier, that the path is narrow. So few people spend the time in the Word renewing their mind and giving to where the Holy Spirit leads them to give, and spend so little time in the presence of the Lord to have the wisdom to know how and when to give, and what work to do and receive witty ideas to generate wealth, that many, many Christians are poor and broke.

It is not just in prosperity many Christians live far below their potential in Christ, bubt in the realms of health, righteousness, shamelessness, faith, glory, peace, joy, relationships.

Prosperity teaching is that God loves you and is your Father and wants to give you everything in Christ. Your ignorance of what the word of faith actually is is shocking, and yet you still have the temerity to post in a Word-Faith forum criticisms of something you clearly know nothing about.

Unbelievable.

God sent His Son to die horrifically on a cross, to become poor so that you could become rich. In the light of that to say that God called you to be poor is gross and total ignorance of the Bible. You have based your theology on your circumstances not the Word of God. And because of that you are missing out on the benefits that could be yours.

 

[watchtower08]

Watchtower08,

Surely before you criticize prosperity teachings it would be sensible to actually learn what they are.

Prosperity is not simply what God wants to do for you, but what He wants to do for you and through you. God cannot get it through you if He cannot get it to you! In other words, you cannot give away what you have never had.

The reason many Christians are in debt, poor and broke is because of what you said earlier, that the path is narrow. So few people spend the time in the Word renewing their mind and giving to where the Holy Spirit leads them to give, and spend so little time in the presence of the Lord to have the wisdom to know how and when to give, and what work to do and receive witty ideas to generate wealth, that many, many Christians are poor and broke.

It is not just in prosperity many Christians live far below their potential in Christ, bubt in the realms of health, righteousness, shamelessness, faith, glory, peace, joy, relationships.

Prosperity teaching is that God loves you and is your Father and wants to give you everything in Christ. Your ignorance of what the word of faith actually is is shocking, and yet you still have the temerity to post in a Word-Faith forum criticisms of something you clearly know nothing about.

Unbelievable.

God sent His Son to die horrifically on a cross, to become poor so that you could become rich. In the light of that to say that God called you to be poor is gross and total ignorance of the Bible. You have based your theology on your circumstances not the Word of God. And because of that you are missing out on the benefits that could be yours.

Allow me to break out the Bible verses then, and allow me to make them personal:

You say "you cannot give away what you have never had." I agree, but not in the financial realm.

Acts 3:6. Then Peter said: silver and gold HAVE I NONE; but such as I HAVE give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.

Peter clearly states he has no spare financial resources to give, but what he does have, a relationship with Jesus Christ, he can give away...

You also say: "God sent His Son to die horrifically on a cross, to become poor so that you could become rich. In the light of that to say that God called you to be poor is gross and total ignorance of the Bible." You remind me of what Paul says to the I Corinthians 4:3+

"But with me, it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you (KingZzub), or of man's judgment: yea I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing (as claimed by you) by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

3:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles LAST, as it were appointed to death: for we are made spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and unto men.

I am a fool for Christ's sake (your words were gross and total ignorance, a synomyn for fool according to Webster's Thesaurus is ignoramus, which by definition is one who is ignorant...), but you are wise (KingZzub), I am weak, but you are strong. You are honorable (KINGZzub), but I am despised (by you...). Even unto this present hour, I both hunger and thirst, and am naked, and buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place (houseless), and labour working with my own hands, being reviled, I bless you; being persecuted, I suffer it. (14) I write not these things to shame you, but to warn you.

And what about Jesus' letter to Smyrna? Revelation 2:9: I know thy works, and tribulation, and prosperity (oh wait, He actually said POVERTY, but thou art rich). Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer (SUFFER????? Speaking of poverty? Oh wait, all apart of His divine will) ... be faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown a life.

Hey here's one for you: the message to Laodicea: 3:17. Because thou sayest I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and thou knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich. We have to buy gold from God, giving up our money and wealth, to become rich? We obviously can't use our financial resources, so perhaps there is something else God wants from us.

Need of nothing... need of nothing... Where does God use that kind of language? Oh yes, speaking to Ezekiel about what Sodom and Gommorah's true sin was in Ezekiel. "Behold, this was the the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy, and they were haughty , and committed abomination before me, therefore I took them away."

I know who my God is. He didn't die so I become financially wealthy here on Earth, He died so I could know my Father.

 

[probinson]

Watchtower08, perhaps you are not aware because you are relatively new to CF, but this is not the place to debate this topic. There are plenty of places on CF where you may debate this, but this forum is not one of them.

This is the WoF forum. This forum is for WoF adherents to fellowship together, a "safe haven" to discuss our beliefs, and not to be chastised for them. Therefore, you are in violation of the rules by posting in this forum as you are very clearly not WoF.

A word to the wise is sufficient.

 

[HEisGoodalways]

Watchtower08, perhaps you are not aware because you are relatively new to CF, but this is not the place to debate this topic. There are plenty of places on CF where you may debate this, but this forum is not one of them.

This is the WoF forum. This forum is for WoF adherents to fellowship together, a "safe haven" to discuss our beliefs, and not to be chastised for them. Therefore, you are in violation of the rules by posting in this forum as you are very clearly not WoF.

A word to the wise is sufficient.

What about KingZ prorob, he clearly put down and judged wt08, and actually started the debate.

This is a good reason why the body of Christ is divided

We are all one in HIM!!!!

 

[HEisGoodalways]

the true riches are spiritual riches in Christ and the kingdom

But He also includes finances if we sow bountifully, we'ii reap bountifully!!

A big part of the kingdom of God is the harvest field, whatever we sow into it, wether it be words, money, love, etc we will reap what we sow!!!

 

[watchtower08]

Thank you HeisGoodalways,

My intentions weren't to start a debate, I just wanted to give you guys insight into why I personally have a problem with the prosperity teaching message, making it personal instead of general. Then I got put down, being called an idiot, or "grossly ignorant" by commenting on something I "clearly know nothing about." Going back to the greek, the word idiot means an ignorant person.

So, I took it to the Scriptures. All I did was quote Scripture, adding a little emphases and the personal touch.

Ask a question: be prepared for the answer, lest the title to this thread seem misleading. It seems to me like you guys are inviting debate.

By the way probinson, kudos on a job done very well. You enforce the rules of this forum to the letter. You should become a moderator

 

[probinson]

What about KingZ prorob, he clearly put down and judged wt08, and actually started the debate.

The WoF forum is the wrong place to post what watchtower08 posted. Obviously watchtower08 is entitled to his opinions and beliefs, but this forum is not the correct place to voice them since he is not a WoF adherent.

It would be akin to you walking into my home off the street, not having any idea who I am, and proceeding to tell me why the way I'm raising my children is incorrect. You certainly would not expect to receive a warm welcome I hope. Much the same thing is true here. If you are not WoF, then you are a guest in our "home" while you are on this forum.

 

[probinson]

Ask a question: be prepared for the answer, lest the title to this thread seem misleading. It seems to me like you guys are inviting debate.

We are, but amongst ourselves.

The purpose of the congregational forums is so that people of like-minded faith and beliefs can have debates and discussions amongst themselves. Not all WoF people believe exactly the same things, but at least we're in the same ballpark and probably have more in common than not. So the idea of this forum is to give us a place to discuss those things without having to deal with people who don't share our beliefs at all. That's the idea behind every congregational forum at CF.

By the way probinson, kudos on a job done very well. You enforce the rules of this forum to the letter. You should become a moderator

Been there, done that.

Thanks, but I was on staff here in the capacity of moderator, supervisor or forum manager for over 2 years. That was enough "fun" for me.

In any event, I'm not a big fan of moderator intervention unless it becomes absolutely necessary. That's why I posted what I did in the hopes that you would respect our forum and we could handle this calmly and without staff intervention.

I can see how the title of this thread invites debate, and for someone who is fairly new and not fully aware of how things work around here, a simple explanation should help clear things up.