Why do People Fight so hard for Their Own Free Will ?

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,291
5,252
45
Oregon
✟961,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
You will be for ever talking past those who make God responsible for all the sin and evil in the world and claim they are upholding God's *sovereignty*.

There is no question that God does decree some things. But no one who knows the Word of God will ever dare claim that God decrees wickedness in any way, shape, or form.

A decree is an enactment, a statute, a law, an ordinance, or a commandment of God (Strong's 2706). Who would dare accuse God of commanding wickedness, sin, and evil?
I'm not arguing that he (God) may have, with "some", but not "all"... And, not nearly "all" is my claim...

Pharaoh is a good example of this... But, he (Pharaoh) was already inclined toward the evil (in his heart) that was set before him, and God (already) knew that (about him) (Pharaoh)... God merely used it... I do not, do not, think he (God) does that/this with everyone and everything...

That is where an extreme view of God's (absolute) sovereignty get perverted, I think...

God Bless!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Micah888
Upvote 0

Micah888

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2018
1,091
778
81
CALGARY
✟21,176.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Pharaoh is a good example of this...
Yes Pharaoh is indeed a good example of how God uses evil men to accomplish His purposes, but is not responsible for the evil itself.

The evil came from within Pharaoh, and begin as soon he succeeded the previous Pharaoh (who had given Joseph great authority in Egypt, and also treated the Israelites properly, and presumably knew about the God of Israel).

We can assume that the wicked Pharaoh already knew the history of Israel in Egypt and therefore concluded that they would prosper further. But he treated that as a threat, and began to oppress them before Moses was born. Which means he was in opposition to God -- of his own free will -- long before the plagues in Egypt. Indeed, he had absolutely no regard for God.

But God gave him multiple opportunities to repent, and after they were exhausted, God hardened his heart. So God did not arbitrarily put wickedness into this man's heart. As Jesus said, everything evil comes from within, out of the heart of man. and James confirmed this when he said this:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:13-15).
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,291
5,252
45
Oregon
✟961,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Yes Pharaoh is indeed a good example of how God uses evil men to accomplish His purposes, but is not responsible for the evil itself.

The evil came from within Pharaoh, and begin as soon he succeeded the previous Pharaoh (who had given Joseph great authority in Egypt, and also treated the Israelites properly, and presumably knew about the God of Israel).

We can assume that the wicked Pharaoh already knew the history of Israel in Egypt and therefore concluded that they would prosper further. But he treated that as a threat, and began to oppress them before Moses was born. Which means he was in opposition to God -- of his own free will -- long before the plagues in Egypt. Indeed, he had absolutely no regard for God.

But God gave him multiple opportunities to repent, and after they were exhausted, God hardened his heart. So God did not arbitrarily put wickedness into this man's heart. As Jesus said, everything evil comes from within, out of the heart of man. and James confirmed this when he said this:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:13-15).
A great lesson and example to us, to not harden our hearts...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,291
5,252
45
Oregon
✟961,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Yes Pharaoh is indeed a good example of how God uses evil men to accomplish His purposes, but is not responsible for the evil itself.

The evil came from within Pharaoh, and begin as soon he succeeded the previous Pharaoh (who had given Joseph great authority in Egypt, and also treated the Israelites properly, and presumably knew about the God of Israel).

We can assume that the wicked Pharaoh already knew the history of Israel in Egypt and therefore concluded that they would prosper further. But he treated that as a threat, and began to oppress them before Moses was born. Which means he was in opposition to God -- of his own free will -- long before the plagues in Egypt. Indeed, he had absolutely no regard for God.

But God gave him multiple opportunities to repent, and after they were exhausted, God hardened his heart. So God did not arbitrarily put wickedness into this man's heart. As Jesus said, everything evil comes from within, out of the heart of man. and James confirmed this when he said this:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:13-15).
By his own choice (James 1:13-15)...

Excellent post!

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,222
2,617
✟886,360.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yes offended indeed and arrogant to think that man, a creature, has any say whatsoever on how God deals with His creation. I have yet to see how they interpret Romans 9.

What verses is it you like to have explained?
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,222
2,617
✟886,360.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yes offended indeed and arrogant to think that man, a creature, has any say whatsoever on how God deals with His creation. I have yet to see how they interpret Romans 9.

I will give a short answer. I will look into the chapter a little closer and try to explain it further later on.

Blessings in Christ!

About Rom 9

The pharao was shown God's power, something that well could have made him turn around and repent. Instead of listening he closed his ears and resisted God's Spirit. The consequence resisting the holy Spirit hardened his heart, instead of alowing the Spirit to make it soft.

Jacob was chosen, not Essau to be the decendant to Christ. God didn't hate Essau, in fact He loved him, but for God's own purpose he choose Jacob. It's a bit like God elect and anointed Saul to win victory over the philistines. Yet, because of sin it was David who got the job done. Could Essau had his birthright back? He probably could if Jacob started to disobey God, but at the same time Essau wasn't interested in the promise.

About the claypart. I think it has to do with God's foreknowledge. God is patient with the vessels of wrath waiting for them to repent, for the sake of those vessels that do repent and receives mercy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,913
7,993
NW England
✟1,053,319.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Man must be revealed Christ in truth via regeneration by Gods Spirit. And that revelation only comes to those God has chosen to save in Christ.

God created everyone, Genesis 1:26-27
Everyone has sinned, Romans 3:23
Everyone needs a Saviour, we cannot come to God without Jesus, Acts 4:12
God wants to save everyone, 2 Peter 3:9, though not everyone will receive the free gift that he gives, Romans 6:23.

Unless you are saying that God created, and has created, all people in his image, but has decided that some will never know the One who created them, his love, grace or salvation. Then he can send them to hell for rejecting him, when he had already decided that thy would never have the chance to know him.
That's not love.

The rest are blinded and left in their natural state to bear Gods wrath and justice on that great day for their sin.

What sin?
How have they sinned against God if he already decided that they would never know him, or reject him and his word?
How can they have been judged to have disobeyed his commands, if God himself has decided they will never know, or accept, them?

Your choices and decisions in life that move you are centered around your sinful nature.

Don't you believe, then, that God can move in someone's life, speak or minister to them even though they aren't aware of it?
Supposing an unbeliever is passing a church, feels prompted to go inside, though they don't know why, hear the Gospel and become a Christian? Their "natural tendency" may have been to keep on walking and have nothing to do with religion, yet they found themselves going in and giving their lives to Christ. I read a testimony from an author who had just that experience. He and his mates had gone to church to laugh and mock; they all left, he went back because he realised he had left his coat behind, heard the Gospel and became a Christian. As did the friend who went back to see why he was taking so long.
People are drawn to Christ in many many ways, when they are doing other things and wanting to do other things.

So to say you have free will is nonsense. We only make decisions based off our natural tendency.

We were all made by God, in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5.
EVERYTHING that is in the world was made thought Jesus, John 1:3.
Adam only had life when the Lord put his Spirit, or breath, into him, Genesis 2:7.
So ALL were made by God and only have life because God, our maker, gave it. Mankind sinned and now have a fallen nature; true. That doesn't negate, or override, the fact that we were all made by God, for him, and have his breath within us - it means that we all need God to draw us back to himself. Our fallen natures, and the devil, may tell us not to come to God. No one likes to have their sin exposed; Jesus said that men will not go to the light for fear their in will be exposed; they'd rather live in darkness. The devil wants to keep people in darkness for as long as possible - he is a liar, a murderer and the prince of darkness.
But God's love is stronger; stronger than all the powers of darkness, Romans 8:38-39.

And our choices in life are moved and governed by the decrees of God.

So if I were to kill my husband it's because it was God's will for me to do so?
If I were to reject my faith it would be because it was God's plan and decree for me to reject him and all he has done for me? If I go out and disobey his word and commands, it's because he wants me to do so?

If that were the case, there would be no sin.
If God asked someone, after death, "why did you reject my Son and resist my Spirit?" the only possible answer is "because you had already decided and planned that I should do so."

Romans 9 teaches that your “god of love” as you say, is an imagination and non existent.

No it doesn't.
God is love - 1 John 4:8.
God has sown how much he loves us by sending his Son to die for SINNERS, Romans 5:8 - clue, we are all sinners, Romans 3:23.
This is what love is, Jesus Christ gave his life for us, 1 John 3:16.

This is not the God of the Bible

Yes it is.
I don't know about you, but the God I believe in;
made me in his image, Genesis 1:26-27
knows everything about me and saw me before I was born, Psalm 139
has called me by name, Isaiah 43:1
has engraved my name on the palm of his hands, Isaiah 49:16
thinks that I am worth more than the birds he created, Matthew 5:26,
says that I am one of his sheep, Psalm 100:3, John 10:14 and he is my shepherd, Psalm 23:1, John 10:11
loves me so much that he did not want to leave me in my sin, Romans 5:6-8, Romans 5:10, Ephesians 2:7, Romans 6:23
sent his Son to die for me and reconcile me to him, Romans 5:10, 2 Corinthians 5:18, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:20.
has given me his Spirit, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, and through this Spirit has guaranteed my future inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Colossians 1:12-13
has made me his child, Romans 8:16-17, 1 John 3:1

This is love. I was a sinner, without God, lost in my sin; he rescued me and gave me all this, Ephesians 1:3.
This is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and gave his Son for us, 1 John 4:10.
God has shown us how much he loves us; while we were still sinners, Christ died for us, Romans 5:8.
The God of the Bible is love. God created the world in love. The source of, and power behind, the whole universe is not darkness, hatred, vindictiveness, but light and love. In God there is NO darkness at all, 1 John 1:5.

If it was God's will/command that people remain in their sin because he wanted to send some to hell, why did he send his Son to rescue us? Why did he say that there is no salvation without Jesus, Acts 4:12, that Jesus is the only way to God, John 14:6 and that those who reject Jesus will not have eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12?
Why pray - if God has decided the outcome and knows what he will do? How could Abraham plead with God not to destroy the city for the sake of 50 people - then 40, then 30, then 20, then 10?
Why evangelise and obey the Great Commission as Jesus asked - if the natural inclination of men's hearts is against God, and he has already decided to send people to hell?

I worship a God who is love, compassionate and full of mercy and grace.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,222
2,617
✟886,360.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Man must be revealed Christ in truth via regeneration by Gods Spirit. And that revelation only comes to those God has chosen to save in Christ. :

MDC, I would love to hear your story, how you were regenerated and saved. Would you share it?
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,291
5,252
45
Oregon
✟961,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
People who have purposed evil in their heart, and are dead set on it, God will not force them to change it, or change it in them...

But, he will, (God) instead "use it", them/him (that person) and the evil they have purposed to do in their heart, for his (God's) (ultimate) purposes, or a "greater good" (or for a greater, or ultimate good to come out of it) in the end...

Though we, (in our limited state), often cannot see that, (but that does not mean it's not true)... All this evil today, God is going to make much more and much greater good to come out of it all, in the end...

As for the rest, (the majority), who are not overly evil or wicked in their hearts, they are already working toward/in out God's purposes, whether they know it or not... So, they're is no real need for him (God) to intervene or interfere, with most of us...

But, those dead set to do some very evil things in their heart, and because he (God) will not force a change in them, there is (a need) (for him (God)) to interfere or intervene...

Like with Pharaoh... For example...

God Bless!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Micah888
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,291
5,252
45
Oregon
✟961,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
People who have purposed evil in their heart, and are dead set on it, God will not force them to change it, or change it in them...

But, he will, (God) instead "use it", them/him (that person) and the evil they have purposed to do in their heart, for his (God's) (ultimate) purposes, or a "greater good" (or for a greater, or ultimate good to come out of it) in the end...

Though we, (in our limited state), often cannot see that, (but that does not mean it's not true)... All this evil today, God is going to make much more and much greater good to come out of it all, in the end...

As for the rest, (the majority), who are not overly evil or wicked in their hearts, they are already working toward/in out God's purposes, whether they know it or not... So, they're is no real need for him (God) to intervene or interfere, with most of us...

But, those dead set to do some very evil things in their heart, and because he (God) will not force a change in them, there is (a need) (for him (God)) to interfere or intervene...

Like with Pharaoh... For example...

God Bless!
These people (that have purposed this very wicked evil in their hearts) have resisted the urges and calls and promptings to change it, or change their mind (about it) for so (very) long, that they have crossed a line, or have gone past the "point of no return" (so to speak)...

And, since God won't force them (forcefully) to change it, then he chooses to "seal their fate" (so to speak) in it, and get some glory out it, by making (a greater) (or much more) "good" come out of it... in the end... Like with Pharaoh and those like him...

God Bless!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,291
5,252
45
Oregon
✟961,097.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
People who have purposed evil in their heart, and are dead set on it, God will not force them to change it, or change it in them...

But, he will, (God) instead "use it", them/him (that person) and the evil they have purposed to do in their heart, for his (God's) (ultimate) purposes, or a "greater good" (or for a greater, or ultimate good to come out of it) in the end...

Though we, (in our limited state), often cannot see that, (but that does not mean it's not true)... All this evil today, God is going to make much more and much greater good to come out of it all, in the end...

As for the rest, (the majority), who are not overly evil or wicked in their hearts, they are already working toward/in out God's purposes, whether they know it or not... So, they're is no real need for him (God) to intervene or interfere, with most of us...

But, those dead set to do some very evil things in their heart, and because he (God) will not force a change in them, there is (a need) (for him (God)) to interfere or intervene...

Like with Pharaoh... For example...

God Bless!

These people (that have purposed this very wicked evil in their hearts) have resisted the urges and calls and promptings to change it, or change their mind (about it) for so (very) long, that they have crossed a line, or have gone past the "point of no return" (so to speak)...

And, since God won't force them (forcefully) to change it, then he chooses to "seal their fate" (so to speak) in it, and get some glory out it, by making (a greater) (or much more) "good" come out of it... in the end... Like with Pharaoh and those like him...

God Bless!

My hope is that, with all this evil going on right now, (with a few), is that it might "unify" (the rest of us) in a way that we never imagined or thought possible before, (or maybe that has not been (so) in a very, very long time)...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,384
1,750
✟167,188.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Nah this is mans sinful tendency. To elevate himself as god. Definitely not scriptural

So you say man now has a sinful tendency to elevate himself?

I though you , like John think that God makes man sin against himself? I thought you like John say that God makes men deny him and lie that it is God forcing them to do it and that they are just like robots ?

Does God, who cannot deny himself, make men , or rather force them by working in them to deny himself?
Such confusion and horrible doctrine to say so. That would present another God than the biblical God of scripture.

God does not tempt men with evil every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust. Also God Firth no iniquity. He cannot deny himself or lie.

Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!

But yet you and John tower say so. I have asked John that question “is Christ the minister of sin many times and he runs from that verse and quite other verses out of context and basically says,”yes” that Christ is the minister of sin contrary to scripture.

For how shall God judge the world if he is judging his own self who made men do sin

Does God make men blaspheme the Spirit? God forbid even the thought of such a horrible thing. Don’t answer that question I don’t want you to blaspheme , but you can see how serious and horrible such a thought is.,
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Micah888
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,384
1,750
✟167,188.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A section of scripture for John and the very few that agree with him

John does not answer this section nor comment in it. Even when I ask him in person, but this must be addressed and not simply quote another verse out of context and meaning.

Clearly men go THEIR own ways as God had said, and God ALSO will choose ...Men did that which God delighted not. Remember God said this. This is the final authortiy.

So for any to say that they do not go their own ways and God made them do it, contradicts this and many other sections of scripture

God said,

"1 Thus saith the Lord...3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."(Isaiah 66:1,3,4 KJV)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Micah888
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,384
1,750
✟167,188.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
To John and the few or one that may agree with you

consider

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:"


case closed...but not for some...


God did not command it, and the thought did not even come to his mind. So where did it come from?

every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust. It came from sinful man.

Let no man say when he is tempted "I am tempted of God"

Also no man should say when they sin "God made me sin and I sin by God forcing me to do so"

 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,384
1,750
✟167,188.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Another verse for all to consider especially John notice that God did not fill his heart to lie to God

Acts 5:3,4 KJV
"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God”

 
Upvote 0