Why do People Fight so hard for Their Own Free Will ?

GUANO

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If you really believe that (or anyone else who does) please define free will for me. I define free will as meaning that I make my own decisions, which makes that absurd.
Defined:
Free (Not a slave) + Will (the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action). The state of having decision-making faculties that are not 'subordinate' to any thing.

What if went and purposely killed someone, is that God directed? Is that your definition?

If "you" went and killed someone then I'm sure "you" thought "you" had a good reason or excuse for it... There are an infinite number of subtle influences that go into making such a decision. Do you really think that "you" have control? "you" are an illusion. Nobody has a free will. Free Will is an illusion. Be a slave to the body, a slave to the spirit, or a mix.
 
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Philip_B

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Article XVII
Of Predestination and Election
Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God’s purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God’s mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God’s Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God’s promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.

God's overall sovereignty is often reflected in a consideration of Predestination, which of course suggests that we have no control over our response to Christ because it has already been determined or predestined. The great danger in this it seems to me is that it removes the urgency of the Gospel, and the witness of the Scriptures is that there is an urgency to the Gospel. We are called to repent, to turn and be saved, to run our race with perseverance, looking unto Jesus.

Our experience of life tells us that we do have free will. It may transpire in the final analysis that the free will we think we have is an illusion (though I doubt that) and that might be interesting, however the reality of life is that we have to operate on the premise that we do have free will and our choices have meaning. The writer of the Article (possibly Matthew Parker) was clear that the notion of God's Sovereignty and Predestination should not be expounded in such a way as to nullify the message of the Gospel, the call to salvation, and the faithfulness of God.
 
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zoidar

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About Rom 9

The pharao was shown God's power, something that well could have made him turn around and repent. Instead of listening he closed his ears and resisted God's Spirit. The consequence resisting the holy Spirit hardened his heart, instead of allowing the Spirit to make it soft.

Jacob was chosen, not Essau to be the decendant to Christ. God didn't hate Essau, in fact He loved him, but for God's own purpose he choose Jacob. It's a bit like God elect and anointed Saul to win victory over the philistines. Yet, because of sin it was David who got the job done. Could Essau had his birthright back? He probably could if Jacob started to disobey God, but at the same time Essau wasn't interested in the promise.

About the claypart. I think it has to do with God's foreknowledge. God is patient with the vessels of wrath waiting for them to repent, for the sake of those vessels that do repent and receives mercy.

I had to make a small (to be honest BIG) edit to not misrepresent God's character... Please reread the bold text. The holy Spirit is never hardening anyone's heart, it's done by oneself, by resisting the work of the Spirit.

Christ love,

P
 
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MoneyGuy

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Defined:
Free (Not a slave) + Will (the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action). The state of having decision-making faculties that are not 'subordinate' to any thing.

If "you" went and killed someone then I'm sure "you" thought "you" had a good reason or excuse for it... There are an infinite number of subtle influences that go into making such a decision. Do you really think that "you" have control? "you" are an illusion. Nobody has a free will. Free Will is an illusion. Be a slave to the body, a slave to the spirit, or a mix.
Huh? I'm an illusion? No one has a free will? I don't have control? And that last sentence? That's a load.
 
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MDC

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Today in Toronto some sick ***tard in a van mowed down a lot of people on the street killing nine innocent people. That was HIS decision made of his own twisted free will.
Who said it wasn’t his choice? Just proves how depraved and enslaved man is to sin. Bound and dead in sin is mans will, not free to do or know spiritual good apart from the grace of Christ Jesus
 
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MDC

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I had to make a small (to be honest BIG) edit to not misrepresent God's character... Please reread the bold text. The holy Spirit is never hardening anyone's heart, it's done by oneself, by resisting the work of the Spirit.

Christ love,

P
Interpret vs. 14 and 19 in context. And this will give you free willers who exalt your will above Gods will a humbling fact.. that you are a mere creature at the mercy of the Almighty
 
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zoidar

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MDC, I would love to hear your story, how you were regenerated and saved. Would you share it?

Since it was you MDC who mentioned regeneration it would be nice to hear how this happened to you.
 
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zoidar

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Interpret vs. 14 and 19 in context. And this will give you free willers who exalt your will above Gods will a humbling fact.. that you are a mere creature at the mercy of the Almighty

First I like to say it's no meaning to become "humble" if it's not through truth. If a lie makes you humble then it's not really being humble, more like a "giving up", "I can do nothing" kind of thing. That's not the bible's teaching about being humble.

Romans 9:

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

It's everywhere in the bible that you can resist the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51 is a clear example.

What you can't do though is resist his WILL concerning his choices. Like if I steal a car and God wills me to go to jail then it's so, and I can't resist that will, but I can choose by free will to repent, turn around and God may change his will about the jail-punishment and let me go free. So there is no injustice with God.
 
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Job3315

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I really don't understand the mindset of those who continually fight for their own Free Will ! Is there something wrong with God being in absolute control of all things , including ourselves ? Is there something wrong with being just clay in God's hands ? Do we think we could do a better job then God ? Are we afraid that God is going to make a bunch of mistakes if he is in total control and so we want our own free will to correct these mistakes , and you know , help God out a little bit ? Is this why we fight so hard for our own free will ? Well obviously we know that we could not do a better job then God ! So is it just a pride thing : We don't want to be just clay : We want to do it ourselves ! Given the fact that nobody can do a better job then God : Why do people continue to fight so hard for their own free will ? Makes absolutely no sense ! I am so happy just being clay in the great master potters hands : I have no desire at all presently for my own free will because I know that I could never do a better job then God !!! C O M M E N T S !

Everyone can have faith and they develope faith as they grow in the Lord, but not everyone has the gift of faith as strong others. Some people grew up with bad fathers, and people tend to see their fathers as a reflection of God. So they have a distorded image of who God really is. Adding to trusting a God you don't see; living by faith not by sight, doesn't come easy to many.

Have you seen those videos of dogs being terrified when somone tries to rescue them? They tremble, bite, run, because they are affraid. The Lord knows and He works slowly to develope trust. Faith/trust in the person starts to grow as they have a relationship with the Lord. God knows why some respond differently as each person is unique.

I heard a Pastor say once: “Just because you don't have the gift of empathy doesn't mean you get to be a jerk.” That impacted me because I realized everyone is unique, and just because I am strong in my faith, doesn't mean everyone is at the same level. I should respect everyones journey.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Who said it wasn’t his choice? Just proves how depraved and enslaved man is to sin. Bound and dead in sin is mans will, not free to do or know spiritual good apart from the grace of Christ Jesus
But this is the point. Man is still free to will to do sin and evil in his bondage to sin. So he does have a freewill within that bounds. The point is that without God men can only do according to their fallen nature. But the this is the main issue, they are without God, God is not in them making them sin. God does not make as John Tower says

that is the issue.

John Tower says it is God that forces men to do sin. And he quotes verses out of context and that have nothing to do with his point like Romans 13 "there is no power but of God", the word power there meaning "authority and relates to governments". But John will use it to mean anything we do any sin blasphemy, lies etc and say that it is God who makes us do it. However the very next verse exposes that error and says

"2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:"
Showing man's will to be able to resist .

He also uses verses like "without me ye can do nothing" applying to all men who sin

I don't think you are as close to John Towers understanding as you might have thought.. But the context speaks of bearing fruit and is spoken to those who abide in Christ.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I am so happy just being clay in the great master potters hands : I have no desire at all presently for my own free will because I know that I could never do a better job then God !!! C O M M E N T S !
and yet scripture corrects this thinking, and even in the section you use to try and make it. You wrongly quote many times in your writings that we can do nothing we don't have freewill and you say "there is no power but of God", wrongly quoting Romans 13:2 a small part of it out of its meaning and context. The word "power there means "authority" and relates to governments. But in the next verse it corrects your thinking and shows that men can resist the power and the ordinance of God. This relates to men resisting governments and sinning in doing so. So men can resist,

"13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."
 
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sunlover1

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and yet scripture corrects this thinking, and even in the section you use to try and make it. You wrongly quote many times in your writings that we can do nothing we don't have freewill and you say "there is no power but of God", wrongly quoting Romans 13:2 a small part of it out of its meaning and context. The word "power there means "authority" and relates to governments. But in the next verse it corrects your thinking and shows that men can resist the power and the ordinance of God. This relates to men resisting governments and sinning in doing so. So men can resist,

"13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."
Show stopper.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I am so happy just being clay in the great master potters hands :... C O M M E N T S !
Even this idea of the potter and clay is wrongly understood and the very section of scripture corrects your thinking

here it is for all to see (because I know you seldom comment on verses that correct your view, so hopefully others can read on and see)

"The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart."(Jeremiah 18:1-12 KJV)

notice the words ""our own devices, and "we will" and "the imagination of his evil heart". And notice IF they repent God will change his direction and judgement against them.
 
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MDC

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But this is the point. Man is still free to will to do sin and evil in his bondage to sin. So he does have a freewill within that bounds. The point is that without God men can only do according to their fallen nature. But the this is the main issue, they are without God, God is not in them making them sin. God does not make as John Tower says

that is the issue.

John Tower says it is God that forces men to do sin. And he quotes verses out of context and that have nothing to do with his point like Romans 13 "there is no power but of God", the word power there meaning "authority and relates to governments". But John will use it to mean anything we do any sin blasphemy, lies etc and say that it is God who makes us do it. However the very next verse exposes that error and says

"2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:"
Showing man's will to be able to resist .

He also uses verses like "without me ye can do nothing" applying to all men who sin

I don't think you are as close to John Towers understanding as you might have thought.. But the context speaks of bearing fruit and is spoken to those who abide in Christ.
The problem with your reasoning is that you believe, as all free willers do, that man in his unregenerate state and dead in his sin, can will himself to believe in Christ and know the things of God and spiritual good. This is absolutely false. And as free willers you believe simply because God commands, this equates to mans ability. This false assumption is the very heresy Pelagius stood on. Not seeing mans complete and total depravity in sin. And why he rejected original sin and believed there is something good in man. So your whole foundation is faulty and why you reject Gods Sovereignty. You see God similar to a deist or open theist. And I would say you are a pelagian no doubt. And as far as Gods decrees and Sovereignty in His ordination of all things, man willingly sins out of his own desires and inclinations, so therefore this in no way means God made him sin simply because God decreed all that comes to pass. God means it for good as man means it for evil. Man is held responsible for his sin and will be judged for it. The common sinful and arrogant response and objection that is repeatedly brought up by most of you free willers on here Paul anticipates in Romans 9:14,19. But yet you explain it away simply because it’s incomprehensible to you. Well your ways aren’t Gods ways. And because you find this unjust and unfair you bring God down to your level by elevating your will above Gods will
 
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MDC

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First I like to say it's no meaning to become "humble" if it's not through truth. If a lie makes you humble then it's not really being humble, more like a "giving up", "I can do nothing" kind of thing. That's not the bible's teaching about being humble.

Romans 9:

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

It's everywhere in the bible that you can resist the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51 is a clear example.

What you can't do though is resist his WILL concerning his choices. Like if I steal a car and God wills me to go to jail then it's so, and I can't resist that will, but I can choose by free will to repent, turn around and God may change his will about the jail-punishment and let me go free. So there is no injustice with God.
Lol this is your opinion. Nothing to do with the truth of what Paul is explaining in this chapter
 
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LoveofTruth

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The problem with your reasoning is that you believe, as all free willers do, that man in his unregenerate state and dead in his sin, can will himself to believe in Christ and know the things of God and spiritual good. This is absolutely false. And as free willers you believe simply because God commands, this equates to mans ability. This false assumption is the very heresy Pelagius stood on. Not seeing mans complete and total depravity in sin. And why he rejected original sin and believed there is something good in man. So your whole foundation is faulty and why you reject Gods Sovereignty. You see God similar to a deist or open theist. And I would say you are a pelagian no doubt. And as far as Gods decrees and Sovereignty in His ordination of all things, man willingly sins out of his own desires and inclinations, so therefore this in no way means God made him sin simply because God decreed all that comes to pass. God means it for good as man means it for evil. Man is held responsible for his sin and will be judged for it. The common sinful and arrogant response and objection that is repeatedly brought up by most of you free willers on here Paul anticipates in Romans 9:14,19. But yet you explain it away simply because it’s incomprehensible to you. Well your ways aren’t Gods ways. And because you find this unjust and unfair you bring God down to your level by elevating your will above Gods will
You totally misunderstand and misrepresent what I believe

Man cannot will by his own effort to force God to save him or gain some spiritual life by his own effort.

I did not say there is good in man of himself.

All along I have said that man is in sin and fallen and yet God still calls to all men by the “true Light which lighters every man that comets into the world” (John 1:9 KJV)

This light is given by God to all this is the “seed” or “word of God” sown in the heart, this is that treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us (2 Cor 4) . God calls all men everywhere to repent and that which may be known of God is manifest in them.

When men come to the light they are “receiving” the word in thier heart. This “receiving part is man’s part it can also be called faith or to believe . To them that received him to them have he the power.

The time when men are condemned is when they hate the light because their deeds are evil. But if they come to the light they will be coming to the seed Christ in thier hearts and “feeling after him “ and find him .

So my understanding is so far away from what you try to impose on me that I think you barely understand the principle I speak of and the truth of the mystery
 
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zoidar

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What do you mean how this happened to me? God quickens whom He wills. And the Lord saved me about 20 years ago

So there is no story to it, you just woke up one morning and noticed you were a Christian?
 
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MDC

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You totally misunderstand and misrepresent what I believe

Man cannot will by his own effort to force God to save him or gain some spiritual life by his own effort.

I did not say there is good in man of himself.

All along I have said that man is in sin and fallen and yet God still calls to all men by the “true Light which lighters every man that comets into the world” (John 1:9 KJV)

This light is given by God to all this is the “seed” or “word of God” sown in the heart, this is that treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us (2 Cor 4) . God calls all men everywhere to repent and that which may be known of God is manifest in them.

When men come to the light they are “receiving” the word in thier heart. This “receiving part is man’s part it can also be called faith or to believe . To them that received him to them have he the power.

The time when men are condemned is when they hate the light because their deeds are evil. But if they come to the light they will be coming to the seed Christ in thier hearts and “feeling after him “ and find him .

So my understanding is so far away from what you try to impose on me that I think you barely understand the principle I speak of and the truth of the mystery
Can say the same on how you understand God’s Sovereignty and the salvation of sinners. Yes mans duty is to believe the gospel, but yet belief itself is the result of regeneration and the fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22. John 1:13. Romans 9:16. You still go back to your idol of free will as the determining factor in salvation. And the basis for what comes to pass. The determining factor in salvation is Gods choice of elective grace and mercy in Christ. And all that comes to pass is by Gods Sovereign decree. By insinuating man is capable of knowing good and conjuring faith in Christ apart from the new birth, is saying there is something good (free will) in man. It is why you deny election
 
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