Why do people disagree on the condition(s) for salvation?

[Neogaia777]

People have to realize that, if and when, and if they are saved, it is for "no good reason at all", not in and of ourselves anyway...

The problem is oftentimes, that the purest form of that, just does not make any kind of logical sense to us at all whatsoever, and/or just "does not compute" with us much of the time, etc...? It does not go along with the way of human thinking, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Wasn't that an example of the gentiles already throwing their weight around having in asserting their new identity as if it were a political party in America today, taken on the age old mentality of our way or the highway?

I'm afraid I'm not following you or don't get what you are meaning...?

Sorry...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

People have to realize that, if and when, and if they are saved, it is for "no good reason at all", not in and of ourselves anyway...

The problem is oftentimes, that the purest form of that, just does not make any kind of logical sense to us at all whatsoever, and/or just "does not compute" with us much of the time, etc...?

God Bless!

I'm still wresting with this much of the time, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

People have to realize that, if and when, and if they are saved, it is for "no good reason at all", not in and of ourselves anyway...

The problem is oftentimes, that the purest form of that, just does not make any kind of logical sense to us at all whatsoever, and/or just "does not compute" with us much of the time, etc...? It does not go along with the way of human thinking, etc...?

God Bless!

I'm still wresting with this much of the time, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

Just God's will and own plans and choosing's, etc, and that, are just those mostly for just Himself, and Himself only, etc, and having very little to nothing, no, absolutely nothing to do with, our own wills and/or goodness or righteousness or whatever, etc, choosing's, etc, or whatever, etc, just only His and His alone, etc, and not ever any of ours "at all" ever, "at all", etc, just His and His alone, etc...

Anyway,

In human thinking, does not make any kind of sense at all, etc...?

"Does not compute", etc...?

That any are saved is a miracle, and a miracle from God and God only and alone, etc...

I still wrestle with it, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[coffee4u]

How does one know that he is saved, in your view?

Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
I take my view from the Bible.

 

[Guojing]

Romans 10:9
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
I take my view from the Bible.

What you actually meant is "from what the Apostle Paul teaches us", which is correct.

But how would you respond to people who use Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 instead?

 

[Guojing]

Not all of them did you know, and as for them now, I guess we'll just see what happens, etc...

But the ones who were converted were not supposed to being under law and works anymore, (to earn salvation or somehow qualify for salvation, etc) (or to get or gain or earn favor from God, etc) and if they went back to it or that, or to teaching that, etc, they were considered "apostates", etc, and are described as "having apostatized", etc...

God Bless!

The nation has rejected Jesus. What you are referring to is the remnant, which Paul also stated in Romans 11:5

Your second paragraph is correct, but those Jews who believed in Jesus largely did not follow that, as Acts 21:20-25 explained. Paul's gospel was largely abandoned during the final days of his life
2 Timothy 1:15
2 Timothy 4:16

 

[Guojing]

The gentiles were and are the backup plan. They were needed to carry the scriptures forward as the last remnants of the House of Israel were scattered after rejecting their Messiah, depleting the chances of the Gospel of the Kingdom to survive for future generations until the time of the gentiles had served it's purpose.

Ephesians 3:9 made it clear that it was no backup plan, God had planned this before the world began.

 

[timothyu]

Ephesians 3:9 made it clear that it was no backup plan, God had planned this before the world began.

Yet He still had to go to His chosen people first.

 

[Neogaia777]

The nation has rejected Jesus. What you are referring to is the remnant, which Paul also stated in Romans 11:5

Your second paragraph is correct, but those Jews who believed in Jesus largely did not follow that, as Acts 21:20-25 explained. Paul's gospel was largely abandoned during the final days of his life
2 Timothy 1:15
2 Timothy 4:16

But has been being increasingly resurrected, since like the Reformation, or when the King James Bible came about, and the printing press and the beginnings or the Bible being translated into every language, and circulated worldwide to the common man everywhere, etc, anyway, and I think the Bible talks about and overwhelming and abundant revelation of Grace in the last days, or as we would near the last days, or during that time, or as increasing from that time, even more so, and even perhaps exponentially as we approach the end, etc...

And this to provoke the Jews, and/or also those of law and works (again, to earn salvation or favor, or whatever) (trusting in their own goodness or whatever, etc) anyway, to provoke them to jealousy or otherwise stir them up, close to, or as we would get closer to the last days, etc...

I think anyway...

(I'd have to find the scriptures, etc)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@Guojing, It really does go against human thinking, so I'm not all that surprised that it was all but lost for a time... But were growing now, etc... Paul really was a man ahead of his time, or especially for the times at the time, etc...

Not to mention those who did have the Word of God, had all of their, let's just say "not so pure agenda's and/or reasons" for not teaching the Gospel of Grace, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

Yet He still had to go to His chosen people first.

Of course, as I stated, Omniscience does not imply lack of free will. We won't be able to understand this completely for now, since we are living "in time".

But God lives outside time.

 

[Guojing]

@Guojing, It really does go against human thinking, so I'm not all that surprised that it was all but lost for a time... But were growing now, etc... Paul really was a man ahead of his time, or especially for the times at the time, etc...

Not to mention those who did have the Word of God, had all of their, let's just say "not so pure agenda's and/or reasons" for not teaching the Gospel of Grace, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Yes, thanks to Mid acts dispensationalists, more and more are beginning to recognize how the Bible makes so much sense once one rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[Neogaia777]

Of course, as I stated, Omniscience does not imply lack of free will.

We'll save that argument for another time. And perhaps another thread maybe, etc.

Don't want to get all hung up on a "technicality", etc... Or perspective or point of view, etc...

God Bless!

 

[timothyu]

But God lives outside time.

Yes He does, but as I said earlier, gentiles were necessary but not primary.

 

[Guojing]

Yes He does, but as I said earlier, gentiles were necessary but not primary.

God zoomed in on the Jews for almost the entire OT and most of the NT, starting from Abraham in Genesis 12 all the way to Acts 9 so, yes by that metric, the Jews were the primary focus.

 

[coffee4u]

What you actually meant is "from what the Apostle Paul teaches us", which is correct.

But how would you respond to people who use Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 instead?

It is what the Apostle Paul teaches but it is also scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
The main point being it is the one who doesn't believe is the one condemned. Not the believer who has yet to be baptised.
Secondly because if it truly took baptism to be saved from hell than there could be no death bed conversions and Jesus lied to the thief next to him on the cross. He said 'Today you will be with me in paradise" He promised the unbaptised thief heaven and I choose to believe that.

Scripture always interprets scripture, so all verses on being saved and baptism should be looked at, not one plucked out. It's an entire study.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism. We also know death bed salvation carried the promise of heaven, so a verse like this should bring further scrutiny as to the real meaning since it can't contradict the other clear teachings of scripture.

The word 'for' is used here and I believe it's this small word that has this verse being misunderstood. The Greek word used is eis and it can have several different meanings. Noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek word here is better translated as “because of” and not “in order to,”.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This verse is really about the fact that believers (those who have repented) should be baptised.

 

[Guojing]

It is what the Apostle Paul teaches but it is also scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
The main point being it is the one who doesn't believe is the one condemned. Not the believer who has yet to be baptised.
Secondly because if it truly took baptism to be saved from hell than there could be no death bed conversions and Jesus lied to the thief next to him on the cross. He said 'Today you will be with me in paradise" He promised the unbaptised thief heaven and I choose to believe that.

Scripture always interprets scripture, so all verses on being saved and baptism should be looked at, not one plucked out. It's an entire study.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism. We also know death bed salvation carried the promise of heaven, so a verse like this should bring further scrutiny as to the real meaning since it can't contradict the other clear teachings of scripture.

The word 'for' is used here and I believe it's this small word that has this verse being misunderstood. The Greek word used is eis and it can have several different meanings. Noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek word here is better translated as “because of” and not “in order to,”.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This verse is really about the fact that believers (those who have repented) should be baptised.

What you are doing above is actually trying to "force fit" Paul's Gospel of grace into the Gospel of the Kingdom.

You are trying to say that "Jesus and Peter did not mean what they are saying but here I am trying to explain to others what they really meant".

I agree with you that, under the Gospel of Grace, water baptism is no longer required for salvation.

But it was required for the Jews under the Gospel of the Kingdom. If you are able to rightly divide the word of truth, and ask yourself the question "Who was Jesus and Peter addressing in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38", you will be able to realize that without having to do "mental gymnastics" with scripture.

 

[Neogaia777]

It is what the Apostle Paul teaches but it is also scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
The main point being it is the one who doesn't believe is the one condemned. Not the believer who has yet to be baptised.
Secondly because if it truly took baptism to be saved from hell than there could be no death bed conversions and Jesus lied to the thief next to him on the cross. He said 'Today you will be with me in paradise" He promised the unbaptised thief heaven and I choose to believe that.

Scripture always interprets scripture, so all verses on being saved and baptism should be looked at, not one plucked out. It's an entire study.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism. We also know death bed salvation carried the promise of heaven, so a verse like this should bring further scrutiny as to the real meaning since it can't contradict the other clear teachings of scripture.

The word 'for' is used here and I believe it's this small word that has this verse being misunderstood. The Greek word used is eis and it can have several different meanings. Noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek word here is better translated as “because of” and not “in order to,”.

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ because of the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This verse is really about the fact that believers (those who have repented) should be baptised.

And repentance can not mean 100% sinless perfection after you are saved and or baptized and/or have repented only once as a one time act either, cause we all know Peter sinned that Paul pointed out, and Paul may have sinned when he caved into the Jews by having Timothy circumcised, etc, and while not as apparent, or recorded, I'm sure others still sinned sometimes after they were saved as well also, etc. Also the word "repent"or "repentance" can mean many different things as well, not the least/most of which has to do with, or has to mean, etc, 100% total and sinless perfection continually after you are saved, etc, or you might lose salvation, etc, it cannot mean that or nobody would be saved as evidenced from or by, even some of our own most highly esteemed apostles in our Bibles, so it cannot mean that...

I think it has to be an "attitude" or humble perspective or point of view or state of mind and heart continually after you have been saved, that you "walk in" when you sin or mess up, or realize you just messed up afterward, etc, and not that your always going to be, or are ever going to be, this side of life anyway, 100% totally and 100% sinlessly perfect and never mess up ever again after you are saved, etc, etc, etc.

I think it has to be an attitude or humble (and "repentant") state of mind and/or heart, etc, that you walk in after you are saved, or that is the true evidence or your being saved, and not complete 100% total 100% sinless perfection, etc. Otherwise I don't think anyone would be saved, etc, as evidenced by some of our very own most highly esteemed "people" who were saved and had already been converted in the Bible, and yet still messed up sometimes and/or still fell short sometimes, etc...

So, in conclusion, I think it is having the right kind of attitude when we do sin or mess up from time to time, etc, (the complete opposite of being proud, haughty, arrogant, etc), that we walk in after we are saved when we mess up, or realize afterward that we may have, or did mess up, etc, that is the most telling about our own state of salvation, etc...

But, I also don't think one can be saved and/or converted and be living a "hedonistic free for all lifestyle" either, or be purposely practicing one, etc, and truly be saved either, or not saved "yet", etc. If one is living that kind of lifestyle before conversion, then I would think they would have to "change" that or repent of that much, but no one is not ever going to never ever mess up in no kind of way ever afterwards either, that's just not possible for us, etc, and I think it is our attitudes when we do mess up or realize we have messed up, or did or may have messed up, etc, that are the "most telling" about our own state of salvation, etc...

God Bless!

 

[coffee4u]

What you are doing above is actually trying to "force fit" Paul's Gospel of grace into the Gospel of the Kingdom.

You are trying to say that "Jesus and Peter did not mean what they are saying but here I am trying to explain to others what they really meant".

I am not force-fitting anything. I am looking deeper at a verse that on first glance seems to contradict other scripture. Since we know that scripture cannot contradict scripture this means we are missing something. To me, looking at the Greek should be the next step in reading and understanding puzzling verses.

I agree with you that, under the Gospel of Grace, water baptism is no longer required for salvation.

But it was required for the Jews under the Gospel of the Kingdom. If you are able to rightly divide the word of truth, and ask yourself the question "Who was Jesus and Peter addressing in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38", you will be able to realize that without having to do "mental gymnastics" with scripture.

I know that cultural aspects and who is being addressed can also come into interpreting scripture, but most times I check other Scripture or the Greek. For me knowing what to look up regarding the cultural aspects would be 'mental gymnastics'. Not saying the cultural aspects aren't valid, I just don't know them well enough for it to help me without significant digging. That is something I would look to after I have checked other scripture and the Greek. Knowing that Jesus was addressing the 11 disciples in Mark 16 does not help me in interpreting the verse. If it helps you, good.