Why do people disagree on the condition(s) for salvation?

[Phil W]

Where did I say that?

OOPs !!
I should have written "So NOT having the wisdom to know that "doing good is better than doing evil" makes sin OK?"
My mistake.

 

[Guojing]

I guess it is really easy to believe God will save men who don't have to do anything...if your deeds are evil.
Salvation is dependent on what we do.
Hearing, believing, confessing, repenting, getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, reception of the Holy Ghost, and enduring faithful till the end, are all things we must do to be saved.

Its so easy for us Gentiles to be saved precisely because God wants to make the Jews jealous.

Paul explained it well in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

The Jews rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets.
The Jews rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross.
The Jews rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

And when you read what Stephen said in Acts 7, he summed up in the same way:

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Breaking his conclusion down:

1. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? (Rejection of God the Father in the OT)
2. whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers (Rejection of Jesus in the 4 Gospels)
3. ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye (Rejection of the Holy Spirit now)

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels.

 

[Phil W]

Its so easy for us Gentiles to be saved precisely because God wants to make the Jews jealous.

Paul explained it well in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

The Jews rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets.
The Jews rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross.
The Jews rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

And when you read what Stephen said in Acts 7, he summed up in the same way:

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Breaking his conclusion down:

1. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? (Rejection of God the Father in the OT)
2. whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers (Rejection of Jesus in the 4 Gospels)
3. ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye (Rejection of the Holy Spirit now)

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels.

Don't you think that the same things that make it easy for Gentiles to be saved are/were also available to the Jews?
The gifts of repentance from sin, baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the crucifixion of the flesh with the affections and lusts are all there for every man.
The apostles and followers of Jesus were the first to avail themselves of thee free gifts.

 

[Guojing]

Don't you think that the same things that make it easy for Gentiles to be saved are/were also available to the Jews?
The gifts of repentance from sin, baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the crucifixion of the flesh with the affections and lusts are all there for every man.
The apostles and followers of Jesus were the first to avail themselves of thee free gifts.

Yes, it was available to them too.

Unfortunately the large majority of the Jews found it difficult to accept that they are now dead to the Law of Moses. In that aspect, they have a strong supporter in James the Just, as what Acts 21:20-25 stated.

They also found it very difficult to accept that Gentiles are now equal to them in the sight of God under this grace dispensation. That they are no longer "special" in God's eyes.

In this aspect, Acts 22 was very enlightening. Notice they were contented to hear Paul preach all the way until vs 21, when he stated God is sending him to the Gentiles?

22 The crowd listened to Paul until he said this. Then they raised their voices and shouted, “Rid the earth of him! He’s not fit to live!”

 

[Phil W]

Yes, it was available to them too.

Unfortunately the large majority of the Jews found it difficult to accept that they are now dead to the Law of Moses. In that aspect, they have a strong supporter in James the Just, as what Acts 21:20-25 stated.

Yeah, I have wondered about that before.
But who was teaching them such things so early on?
They must have at least know that days of atonement were not necessary anymore.
Anything else is a matter of opinion, as it isn't recorded anywhere.
The letter to the Hebrews must have really opened some eyes.

 

[Neogaia777]

It will be Jesus' judgement, as per Matt 7:21-23.
How can I disagree with Jesus?

You know your quoting the very same scripture to me that I went over with you with before, and told you about already, and pointed out that you were using it very, very wrong and were even lying, etc, told you take it in context with the whole chapter, etc, starting with this post (below) and "all the ones following it in my conversation with you in that thread, on all the other pages after it", etc...

Maybe you need to see them again, or maybe others would like to see them again maybe:

Well, here they are, starting with the first one:

False gospels do not require you to overcome sin

And as for what I asked you here, so you answer is "Yes" then right...? that all people who are not or who do not achieve 100% total sinlessness are not ever saved and do not ever go to heaven, right...?

You will be judged by that same measure then, hope you can live up to it...

And I'm sorry, but how do know the way God judges or the judgement of God...? I've already shown that a lot of your interpretations are just "wrong", etc...? Do you not know anything about how God or even a god, would "have to judge" and "does judge" at all...?

He considers "everything" and we do not know "everything" not even close, but he considers "it all", etc, and judges all accordingly, etc...

And I just would like to add, that I think it's very funny that you think you have somehow "won" an argument, when you get the last words or last posts, when much of the time, people just give up on you, and people like you, etc...

Your quite impossible to reason with...

Reason in general seems to a very foreign concept to you, even reasoning with scripture, etc, (like the link I provided with all those post in you in the other thread) (and you still, "still using it wrong", etc) you just ignore it/them apparently, etc, goes in one ear and out the other, so people give up on you and ignore you, as I'm about to do, etc...

I spent a lot of time, "wasted a lot of time" (apparently) with you already, and it took "how many posts in that thread"...? Just to try and make one simple point to you about just a couple lines of scripture...? Now you just tell me why I should waste as much time as I took on and with you there, yet again...? And again, and again, and again...

I'm not going to... So, have the last word if you wish, and think you've won if you wish, but you've actually lost far and very much more than you may ever realize, etc...

Sad really, but it is what it is I guess...?

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

Yeah, I have wondered about that before.
But who was teaching them such things so early on?
They must have at least know that days of atonement were not necessary anymore.
Anything else is a matter of opinion, as it isn't recorded anywhere.
The letter to the Hebrews must have really opened some eyes.

The most interesting discovery when you read the scripture on your own is, not only the resurrected Christ NOT tell the 11 that the law of Moses is nailed to the cross, he continue to tell them in the Matthew version of the great commission, to teach all to obey everything he had commanded them. And yes, he commanded them to follow the law of Moses too in Matthew 5.

So the idea that the law of Moses was done away with, immediately after he has died and resurrected, is not scriptural. It is a result of people reading Paul into the 4 gospels.

 

[Neogaia777]

The most interesting discovery when you read the scripture on your own is, not only the resurrected Christ NOT tell the 11 that the law of Moses is nailed to the cross, he continue to tell them in the Matthew version of the great commission, to teach all to obey everything he had commanded them. And yes, he commanded them to follow the law of Moses too in Matthew 5.

So the idea that the law of Moses was done away with, immediately after he has died and resurrected, is not scriptural. It is a result of people reading Paul into the 4 gospels.

Jesus mission was different from Paul's, and apparently you do not fully understand it/that, etc...

Paul is not in conflict with Christ, and if you fully understood Jesus mission and what He (Jesus) was doing (and really doing) (with the Jews, or those under law, etc) you would understand "that", etc...

If you reject Paul, you reject a major part of the Bible and the Gospel, and are not even a true believer in my book because you do, etc...

I believe I ran into you before and tried to explain that part (about Jesus mission and how it was different from Paul's, but did not conflict with Paul's, etc) Anyway, I think I tried to explain that to you before, and I'm not going back to try and dig it up, like I just did with @Phil W, it's too far back anyway, and I'm not going to write 20 or more posts to you to try and get through to you and/or explain it to you again either...

You should be able to "figure it out" on your own, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Phil W]

The most interesting discovery when you read the scripture on your own is, not only the resurrected Christ NOT tell the 11 that the law of Moses is nailed to the cross, he continue to tell them in the Matthew version of the great commission, to teach all to obey everything he had commanded them. And yes, he commanded them to follow the law of Moses too in Matthew 5.

So the idea that the law of Moses was done away with, immediately after he has died and resurrected, is not scriptural. It is a result of people reading Paul into the 4 gospels.

I'm not so sure about that, as Jesus did say the law and the prophets were encapsulated in "love God above all else and your neighbor as yourself".

 

[Guojing]

Jesus mission was different from Paul's, and apparently you do not fully understand it/that, etc...

Paul is not in conflict with Christ, and if you fully understood Jesus mission and what He (Jesus) was doing (and really doing) (with the Jews, or those under law, etc) you would understand "that", etc...

If you reject Paul, you reject a major part of the Bible and the Gospel, and are not even a true believer in my book because you do, etc...

I believe I ran into you before and tried to explain that part (about Jesus mission and how it was different from Paul's, but did not conflict with Paul's, etc) Anyway, I think I tried to explain that to you before, and I'm not going back to try and dig it up, like I just did with @Phil W, it's too far back anyway, and I'm not going to write 20 or more posts to you to try and get through to you and/or explain it to you again either...

You should be able to "figure it out" on your own, etc...

God Bless!

I never said they are in conflict. Under the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Law of Moses continue to be in force for all Jews. So what Jesus preached in the 4 Gospels, and what he told the 11 to preach in the Great Commission, the Jews had to follow the Law of Moses.

As I have explained previously to Phil, the new Gospel of Grace was only unveiled after Stephen was stoned. I don't know how you concluded that I reject Paul, Paul was given the revelation of that new gospel from the ascended Christ himself.

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus mission was different from Paul's, and apparently you do not fully understand it/that, etc...

Paul is not in conflict with Christ, and if you fully understood Jesus mission and what He (Jesus) was doing (and really doing) (with the Jews, or those under law, etc) you would understand "that", etc...

If you reject Paul, you reject a major part of the Bible and the Gospel, and are not even a true believer in my book because you do, etc...

I believe I ran into you before and tried to explain that part (about Jesus mission and how it was different from Paul's, but did not conflict with Paul's, etc) Anyway, I think I tried to explain that to you before, and I'm not going back to try and dig it up, like I just did with @Phil W, it's too far back anyway, and I'm not going to write 20 or more posts to you to try and get through to you and/or explain it to you again either...

You should be able to "figure it out" on your own, etc...

God Bless!

@Guojing Jesus was laying a/the foundation or the groundwork, starting with the Jews and those under law, but nothing was built on it yet and it didn't stop with Jesus, that would be part of the apostles job who would come after Him (Jesus) later on, of which Paul both is and was, first and foremost, etc...

Anyway, I tried to explain it to you, etc...

If you take all of Jesus words, and not just some of them, and view them all 100% "objectively", then you should see it, etc, but it will have to be completely objectively, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I never said they are in conflict. Under the Gospel of the Kingdom, the Law of Moses continue to be in force for all Jews. So what Jesus preached in the 4 Gospels, and what he told the 11 to preach in the Great Commission, the Jews had to follow the Law of Moses.

As I have explained previously to Phil, the new Gospel of Grace was only unveiled after Stephen was stoned. I don't know how you concluded that I reject Paul, Paul was given the revelation of that new gospel from the ascended Christ himself.

Part of prophecy though, is the Jews having to come out from under the OT Law Covenant, and to be grafted into Grace, etc...

And, I'm very sorry, I may getting a little frustrated, and for that I do apologize, sorry, etc...

I'm very glad you don't reject Paul, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Phil W]

Look at the very first NT teachings by Peter on the day of Pentecost...The Jews asked "What shall we do?", and Peter said "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".
No mention of circumcision, Sabbaths, dietary laws, etc.

 

[Guojing]

Look at the very first NT teachings by Peter on the day of Pentecost...The Jews asked "What shall we do?", and Peter said "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".
No mention of circumcision, Sabbaths, dietary laws, etc.

Peter was preaching to the Jews during Pentecost (Acts 2:36)

It will be superfluous for him to add "Oh by the way, don't forget, the Law of Moses continue to apply to all of you" after Acts 2:38.

His attitude towards eating unclean food was already revealed in Acts 10, so yes, in Peter's view, the Law of Moses continue to apply.

 

[Guojing]

Part of prophecy though, is the Jews having to come out from under the OT Law Covenant, and to be grafted into Grace, etc...

And, I'm very sorry, I may getting a little frustrated, and for that I do apologize, sorry, etc...

I'm very glad you don't reject Paul, etc...

God Bless!

Yes of course, God's hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews required the Jewish nation to exercise their free will to reject Jesus as their Messiah.

Even though God had the foreknowledge that they would, it does not mean the nation was not free to decide on their own.

So the 4 Gospels and the stoning of Stephen went down the way it did.

 

[timothyu]

So, you write that sinning isn't sin unless one loses the wisdom that doing good is better than doing evil.

Everybody stumbles.But unless one looses allegiance to the will of God and returns to the will of man, then it is just that. A stumble.

 

[timothyu]

It is a result of people reading Paul into the 4 gospels.

He is the hero of the Gentile church after all.

 

[timothyu]

God's hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews required the Jewish nation to exercise their free will to reject Jesus as their Messiah.

The gentiles were and are the backup plan. They were needed to carry the scriptures forward as the last remnants of the House of Israel were scattered after rejecting their Messiah, depleting the chances of the Gospel of the Kingdom to survive for future generations until the time of the gentiles had served it's purpose.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes of course, God's hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews required the Jewish nation to exercise their free will to reject Jesus as their Messiah.

Even though God had the foreknowledge that they would, it does not mean the nation was not free to decide on their own.

Not all of them did you know, and as for them now, I guess we'll just see what happens, etc...

But the ones who were converted were not supposed to being under law and works anymore, (to earn salvation or somehow qualify for salvation, etc) (or to get or gain or earn favor from God, etc) and if they went back to it or that, or to teaching that, etc, they were considered "apostates", etc, and are described as "having apostatized", etc...

God Bless!

 

[timothyu]

if they went back to it or that, or to teaching that, etc, they were considered "apostates", etc, and are described as "having apostatized", etc...

Wasn't that an example of the gentiles already throwing their weight around having in asserting their new identity as if it were a political party in America today, taken on the age old mentality of our way or the highway?