Why do people blame calvinists ?

[chad kincham]

Or maybe Paul is using metaphors. How can Jesus be in all of these hearts if He is flesh and bones as He said? He said He wasn't a spirit so He can't be an omnipresent spirit. He said He was flesh and Bone. The apostle John too, says that He is flesh and bone.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

Here the word translated come, is a perfect tense participle. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present. What John is saying is that Christ came in the flesh and was still in the flesh when John wrote the letter.

When Paul wrote that Jesus indwelling believers is a mystery, that’s not a metaphor, or it wouldn’t be mysterious.

 

[chad kincham]

Regardless, reconciliation requires an acceptence of what a scripture says. Here`s another proof.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

"lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

He’s wrong.

Pneuma doesn’t just mean wind or breath, because if it did, when John 4:24 says God is a pneuma, that would mean He’s only a wind or breath, which is preposterous.

Here’s the definition:

G4151 (Strong)

πνεῦμα

pneuma

pnyoo'-mah

From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

Of course Jesus has a spirit or breath in Him. Every man does. It is the breath or spirit of life. Saying Jesus has a spirit in Him is different than saying Jesus is a spirit. But again, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. The spirit of Christ is the spirit from Christ which is the Holy Spirit. What did He say to the apostles?

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (Jn. 15:26 KJV)

Jesus told the apostles that He would send the Spirit to them. Paul goes on to say that God gives the spirit to all believers.

God is a pneuma, says John 4:24. IS a pneuma. An eternal, divine pneuma.

If pneuma only meant wind or breath, that would mean God is merely a wind or breath, instead of an eternal being.

Jesus is also God. Thus Jesus also IS a pneuma. That’s his nature.

It is then obvious that when He left heaven to go live in a body, so he could die for our sins, His spirit entered that body.

And He equated Himself with the Holy Spirit by saying:

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.

The Holy Spirit will be sent to us YET Jesus will come to us.

 

[chad kincham]

Of course Jesus has a spirit or breath in Him. Every man does. It is the breath or spirit of life. Saying Jesus has a spirit in Him is different than saying Jesus is a spirit. But again, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. The spirit of Christ is the spirit from Christ which is the Holy Spirit. What did He say to the apostles?

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (Jn. 15:26 KJV)

Jesus told the apostles that He would send the Spirit to them. Paul goes on to say that God gives the spirit to all believers.

God is a pneuma, says John 4:24. IS a pneuma. An eternal, divine pneuma.

If pneuma only meant wind or breath, that would mean God is merely a wind or breath, instead of an eternal being.

Jesus is also God. Thus Jesus also IS a pneuma. That’s his nature.

It is then obvious that when He left heaven to go live in a body, so he could die for our sins, His spirit entered that body.

And He equated Himself with the Holy Spirit by saying:

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

[Dave L]

Cutting to the chase. Calvanists differ from non-Calvanists because they believe in "Total Depravity" - which is a doctrine that means that even the elect contribute nothing to their own salvation. If total depravity were true, why is the Bible filled with exhortations and directives? Why do the early church pillars of the faith, like Peter and Paul, spend considerable effort in reasoning with the "totally depraved"?

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.​

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.​

There are two systems in scripture. The OT law that depends on free will but cannot save. And salvation by grace that is free depending on who God gives it to. But people butcher scripture when they combine the two and make grace depend on free will. They destroy grace and turn it into works. But it cannot save because it is now law.

 

[Dave L]

So did you believe?

It caused me to believe, as I said.

 

[John Mullally]

And salvation by grace that is free depending on who God gives it to.

Salvation by grace is free, but not automatic - cooperation is required on your part as Peter points out on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
​

FYI: Believing is not a Work of the Law, much less a Work of the Flesh.

John 6:28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”​

 

[Dave L]

Salvation by grace is free, but not automatic - cooperation is required on your part as Peter points out on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
​

FYI: Believing is not a Work of the Law, much less a Work of the Flesh.

John 6:28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”​

Dead people must participate in their resurrection?

 

[J3thekingofking]

It caused me to believe, as I said.

wesleyan arminian says without grace, man is dead spiritually they can't save themselves.

 

[Dave L]

wesleyan arminian says without grace, man is dead spiritually they can't save themselves.

But they end up saving themselves since it only amounts to an opportunity.

 

[J3thekingofking]

But they end up saving themselves since it only amounts to an opportunity.

this is funny, so an arminian who choose to believe in Jesus isn't Christian? A Christian is someone who is an calvinist?

 

[Dave L]

this is funny, so an arminian who choose to believe in Jesus isn't Christian? A Christian is someone who is an calvinist?

That's for you to decide.

 

[chad kincham]

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (NCPB)

Only believers call on the name of the Lord. But faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = only the saved can believe.

Romans 10:17 states that faith comes from hearing the word of God.

Not by first being regenerated by imparting of irresistible grace - but from hearing the word of God.

This means that the Holy Spirit, who draws us to Jesus, sufficiently enlightens those who hear God’s word preached, to believe.

This is the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8-9, because unlike what Calvinism claims, that verse says faith comes first, and it’s how we get grace - thus the gift of God is faith that we get grace THROUGH.

(By grace are ye saved THROUGH faith)

Calvinism claims grace comes first, before faith, as those such as RC Sproul freely admit, because their version of salvation requires it to be so.

The truth actually is that faith comes first, it comes by hearing Gods word, and then we have a choice to make:to reject Jesus, or receive Him and be saved.


Jesus came only for the elect nation of Israel. Matthew 15:24. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came to save, REJECTED Him. John 1:11


This scriptural fact is diametrically opposed to reformed election doctrine. Jesus desired to save them - He came for them, to save them. Instead of irresistibly being saved, they rejected Him.


Yes, His people that Jesus, who is God, desired to come to Him, who yearned for them to believe in Him and be saved, resisted His desire, and refused Him:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is because God allows free will, and thus the Holy Spirit is thus resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen was preaching to the same group of Israelites that Jesus lamented killed the prophets God sent them, and who rejected Jesus.


He tells us how they were able to reject Jesus: they resist the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[John Mullally]

Dead people must participate in their resurrection?

Huh? Zombie Apocalypse?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Arminius is nothing to me.

I don’t believe in free will because of him, but because it’s scriptural.

The OP was not to discuss freewill but concerning the affinity of Arminianism to Calvinism.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Correct.

Obviously if Calvinism was a fact, nothing Paul did could affect salvations, so becoming all things to all men would be useless.

Shalom.

Even Shakespeare knew better than to say that. All through history it can be seen that whatever "the fates" determine, is accomplished through the acts of agents. Whether Paul decided to obey or not to obey, God's plan will come to pass, and that, by use of whatever Paul did. Same with us.

 

[chad kincham]

Jesus wasn`t claiming to be the father. He was identifying Himself as the theophany that appeared to Moses aka the angel of the Lord.

Albert Barnes affirms my understanding of the text:

The question here was about his pre-existence. The objection of the Jews was that he was not 50 years old, and could not, therefore, have seen Abraham. Jesus replied to that that he existed before Abraham. As in his human nature he was not yet 50 years old, and could not, as a man, have existed before Abraham, this declaration must be referred to another nature; and the passage proves that, while he was a man, he was also endowed with another nature existing before Abraham, and to which he applied the term (familiar to the Jews as expressive of the existence of God) I AM; and this declaration corresponds to the affirmation of John Joh 1:1, that he was in the beginning with God, and was God. This affirmation of Jesus is one of the proofs on which John relies to prove that he was the Messiah Joh 20:31, to establish which was the design of writing this book.

 

[RickReads]

Albert Barnes affirms my understanding of the text:

The question here was about his pre-existence. The objection of the Jews was that he was not 50 years old, and could not, therefore, have seen Abraham. Jesus replied to that that he existed before Abraham. As in his human nature he was not yet 50 years old, and could not, as a man, have existed before Abraham, this declaration must be referred to another nature; and the passage proves that, while he was a man, he was also endowed with another nature existing before Abraham, and to which he applied the term (familiar to the Jews as expressive of the existence of God) I AM; and this declaration corresponds to the affirmation of John Joh 1:1, that he was in the beginning with God, and was God. This affirmation of Jesus is one of the proofs on which John relies to prove that he was the Messiah Joh 20:31, to establish which was the design of writing this book.

Becoming a man did not and could not change Jesus. He does not change and it was Jesus who spoke to Moses and walked with Adam in the garden. aka the Angel of the Lord. The Theophany.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18

"Who is the image of the invisible God" Colossians 1:15

 

[John Mullally]

this is funny, so an arminian who choose to believe in Jesus isn't Christian? A Christian is someone who is an calvinist?

Unfortunately that is the vibe you get with some.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

And you’re correct.

It’s Calvinists that teach that we are born spiritually dead and totally depraved, so that as dead men, we can’t respond or even believe the gospel, until first being made alive by regeneration.


Shalom.

Can a physically dead man choose to come back to life ? why not

Can a spiritually dead man choose to have spiritual life ? why

Doesn't dead mean dead or does it just depend upon your doctrine ?