Why do people blame calvinists ?

[RickReads]

I say that regeneration comes before salvation and likewise, before repentance, as the dead heart cannot truly repent, nor does it want to. Its kind of repentance is like its kind of obedience or confession. Admission, but no submission. Compliance, but no submission. Repentance but only because of regret --not submission. Regeneration PRODUCES, inevitably, repentance.

Sinners CAN repent, but only as God enables them. True repentance is of God, not of strength of will or desire of the sinner.

The word regeneration appears one time in the Bible, Per the meaning of the word it would be applicable to something that was already there.

In the verse, regeneration is a renewal of the Holy Spirit within someone who already had Holy Spirit within them.

Clarify with scripture if you can what you are trying to say.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The word regeneration appears one time in the Bible, Per the meaning of the word it would be applicable to something that was already there.

In the verse, regeneration is a renewal of the Holy Spirit within someone who already had Holy Spirit within them.

Clarify with scripture if you can what you are trying to say.

I will give it a try Rick.In English, the word generate means to bring into existence; cause to be; produce. Re-generate basically means again.

So, it means to bring into existence again.

When God created Adam, Adam was spiritually alive. When they sinned in the garden they died spiritually.

This is what it means when Paul says we were (past tense) dead in sins. We were regenerated and brought back to spiritual life (that man was originally created with).

Ephesians 2:4-5- But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Paul says:
(1 Corinthians 2:14 ) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is a spiritually dead person who is unsaved. He does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, and he cannot know them. Why? Because they are spiritually discerned.

Then in the next verse Paul says:
(1 Corinthians 2:15) But he who is spiritual judges all things . . .

The word "judges" there basically means to sift, to examine, to decide rightly.

The question is, how does a natural man who does not accept the things of the Spirit of God become spiritual so that he can sift, examine or decide rightly?

The answer is that God must sovereignly do it.

Most people think that the person must first accept Christ first, and then God will regenerate them. But this contradicts what Paul says in 1 Corinthians. 2:14 above. In order for a natural man to accept Christ, he would have to understand and accept the things of the Spirit of God. Paul says this does not and cannot happen.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

thanks for your thoughts however i've had calvinists dissect my salvation experience a few times and it was really hurtful, even Dave L admits he is waiting to judge me based on it so yeah...I wont be sharing it anytime soon here. other places without calvinists sure but not here it's not safe.

I can appreciate that, and I sense you have been your holding your tongue --that I thank you for, keeping the discussion civil.

But for what it is worth, Dave L and many others who come across that way, usually mean to be dealing with the theology, not the experience. They don't trust the witness of anyone over what they think the Bible teaches, since experience is subjective. They may not see what someone says as demonstrating what they (and I) hope is true about any professing believer --Calvinist or otherwise-- that they talk with: That God alone can save. Please be patient --it is hard for us to handle what we so easily take as an insult against the Gospel. Dave doesn't even call himself a Calvinist, as far as I have seen. He, like I, and I hope, you, wants only the the truth.

 

[RickReads]

Most people think that the person must first accept Christ first, and then God will regenerate them.

I learned what regenerate means about 36 years ago and even today I still remember how to use a dictionary. I think we disagree on regeneration of Holy Spirit.

It seems like what you are telling me here is the root of the irresistable grace doctrine.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The word regeneration appears one time in the Bible, Per the meaning of the word it would be applicable to something that was already there.

In the verse, regeneration is a renewal of the Holy Spirit within someone who already had Holy Spirit within them.

Clarify with scripture if you can what you are trying to say.

Which verse would that be? I don't see "ye must be born again" and its context as being represented by your description above. Christ's discourse on the behavior of the Spirit of God seems to me very Calvinistic: The Spirit of God does as it pleases, not deciding who to inhabit according to the worth or understanding or will of anyone but God (John 3), and nobody can tell where that Spirit of God came from nor where it is going.

The New Testament, particularly the Gospels, is replete with different ways of referring to the same thing, which yes, is closely related to the ongoing sanctification of the believer (such as "renewal of the mind" etc).

An aside that may help: As I read through one of my posts to you, I noticed I had not well represented something. I do think that it can be said that regeneration IS the salvation, and so yes, it can be said that salvation comes before the repentance. Either way, it all does necessarily happen, or it is not salvation; regeneration is the cause of repentance and faith.

 

[RickReads]

Which verse would that be? I don't see "ye must be born again" and its context as being represented by your description above. Christ's discourse on the behavior of the Spirit of God seems to me very Calvinistic: The Spirit of God does as it pleases, not deciding who to inhabit according to the worth or understanding or will of anyone but God (John 3), and nobody can tell where that Spirit of God came from nor where it is going.

The New Testament, particularly the Gospels, is replete with different ways of referring to the same thing, which yes, is closely related to the ongoing sanctification of the believer (such as "renewal of the mind" etc).

An aside that may help: As I read through one of my posts to you, I noticed I had not well represented something. I do think that it can be said that regeneration IS the salvation, and so yes, it can be said that salvation comes before the repentance. Either way, it all does necessarily happen, or it is not salvation; regeneration is the cause of repentance and faith.

I stand corrected, when I looked it up regeneration appears twice in scripture. Once in Matthew 19, in reference to the next age.

Second time is Titus 3:5

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

This verse is descriptive of what people call "sanctification". Paul said "I die daily" so I wake up everyday in need of spiritual renewal.

As I consider your comments and the comments of Jesus is YHWH, I`m pretty sure you are telling me your irrisistable grace doctrine.

I actually appriciate the effort because I`m getting how that idea is justified in Calvin world.

regeneration = salvation
salvation before repentence = irrisistable grace

You did a fine job of representing Calvinism to me. I`m just a little on the slow side, it took Jesus is YHWH`s help in order for me to understand you.

It`s interesting. Thxs.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I learned what regenerate means about 36 years ago and even today I still remember how to use a dictionary. I think we disagree on regeneration of Holy Spirit.

It seems like what you are telling me here is the root of the irresistable grace doctrine.

I'm not trying to promote any doctrine but just present the scriptures on a given topic for discussion. I don't like labels or to but placed into a doctrinal box no more than you would like to be placed into a box with your beliefs Rick. All I was doing in the OP was showing how close Arminians and Calvinists are in their beliefs when we go back to the founders- Arminius and Calvin. They are actually closer than most people think and sometimes comes down to semantics.

hope this helps !!!

 

[RickReads]

I'm not trying to promote any doctrine but just present the scriptures on a given topic for discussion. I don't like labels or to but placed into a doctrinal box no more than you would like to be placed into a box with your beliefs Rick. All I was doing in the OP was showing how close Arminians and Calvinists are in their beliefs when we go back to the founders- Arminius and Calvin. They are actually closer than most people think and sometimes comes down to semantics.

hope this helps !!!

I actually appriciated the post. I think you hit on the spot where Calvin and Armini part ways.

That is irristable grace belief. Tell me if I`m wrong. And have you yourself not said you were a Calvinist?

Feel free to call me a Pauline Christian. That`s the one box I will step into. I could even be considered a dispensationalist with the proper provisos.

 

[RickReads]

I decided to revisit this post. I wasn`t trying to berate you but I think this to be pure Calvin not Armini.
My comments in ()

the word generate means to bring into existence; cause to be; produce. Re-generate basically means again.

So, it means to bring into existence again.

( For that reason there is an immediate issue with your premise.)

When God created Adam, Adam was spiritually alive. When they sinned in the garden they died spiritually.

This is what it means when Paul says we were dead in sins. We were regenerated and brought back to spiritual life

Ephesians 2:4-5- But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Paul says:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is a spiritually dead person who is unsaved. He does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, and he cannot know them. Why? Because they are spiritually discerned.

Then in the next verse Paul says:
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things . . .

The word "judges" there basically means to sift, to examine, to decide rightly.

The question is, how does a natural man who does not accept the things of the Spirit of God become spiritual so that he can sift, examine or decide rightly?

The answer is that God must sovereignly do it.

( Nothing here to suggest that regeneration occurs before repentence)

Most people think that the person must first accept Christ first, and then God will regenerate them. But this contradicts what Paul says in 1 Corinthians. 2:14 above. In order for a natural man to accept Christ, he would have to understand and accept the things of the Spirit of God. Paul says this does not and cannot happen.

( accept Christ is a common albeit unbiblical false expression. It`s Christ accepts us not we accept Christ. At least per your Bible that is the way it is.)

( Christ will only accept those who believe and repent. His acceptence is the generation and the regeneration is the sanctification.)

 

[Mark Quayle]

I stand corrected, when I looked it up regeneration appears twice in scripture. Once in Matthew 19, in reference to the next age.

Second time is Titus 3:5

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

This verse is descriptive of what people call "sanctification". Paul said "I die daily" so I wake up everyday in need of spiritual renewal.

As I consider your comments and the comments of Jesus is YHWH, I`m pretty sure you are telling me your irrisistable grace doctrine.

I actually appriciate the effort because I`m getting how that idea is justified in Calvin world.

regeneration = salvation
salvation before repentence = irrisistable grace

You did a fine job of representing Calvinism to me. I`m just a little on the slow side, it took Jesus is YHWH`s help in order for me to understand you.

It`s interesting. Thxs.

Your Matthew 19 reference in many versions doesn't use the word "regeneration". In my last post to you I tried to say there are many references to the same thing, said in different words: born again, death to life, Breath of life, etc. I would note that whether it is used in reference to Salvation OR to Sanctification, the source is the same and the effect is the same. It is the ONLY means for any good we might otherwise credit to ourselves. Our faith is not of ourselves, and our desire for holiness is not of ourselves, nor is our ability to truly repent. "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

 

[Mark Quayle]

I stand corrected, when I looked it up regeneration appears twice in scripture. Once in Matthew 19, in reference to the next age.

Second time is Titus 3:5

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

This verse is descriptive of what people call "sanctification". Paul said "I die daily" so I wake up everyday in need of spiritual renewal.

As I consider your comments and the comments of Jesus is YHWH, I`m pretty sure you are telling me your irrisistable grace doctrine.

I actually appriciate the effort because I`m getting how that idea is justified in Calvin world.

regeneration = salvation
salvation before repentence = irrisistable grace

You did a fine job of representing Calvinism to me. I`m just a little on the slow side, it took Jesus is YHWH`s help in order for me to understand you.

It`s interesting. Thxs.

It also may worth it to you in trying to understand Calvinism, that perhaps the most core belief is in the Sovereignty of God --Scriptural and logical sovereignty, singular sovereignty. (As a logically necessary implication, we do not credit man nor any other creation with having any ability to determine (or cause) anything God has not determined). Add to that the many scriptures describing the work of God, and you get Calvinism. Our precious salvation, (even if it does require the cooperative work of the will of man, which notion we deny), can only happen if God changes the heart and mind from death to life.

 

[RickReads]

Your Matthew 19 reference in many versions doesn't use the word "regeneration". In my last post to you I tried to say there are many references to the same thing, said in different words: born again, death to life, Breath of life, etc. I would note that whether it is used in reference to Salvation OR to Sanctification, the source is the same and the effect is the same. It is the ONLY means for any good we might otherwise credit to ourselves. Our faith is not of ourselves, and our desire for holiness is not of ourselves, nor is our ability to truly repent. "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Regardless, there are plenty of verses about repentence. No need for me to even look. There no salvation before repentence and I still haven`t heard any denial that what you an Jesus is are promoting is Irristable grace. I have given you both a chance to deny and/or explain your view.

 

[RickReads]

It also may worth it to you in trying to understand Calvinism, that perhaps the most core belief is in the Sovereignty of God --Scriptural and logical sovereignty, singular sovereignty. (As a logically necessary implication, we do not credit man nor any other creation with having any ability to determine (or cause) anything God has not determined). Add to that the many scriptures describing the work of God, and you get Calvinism. Our precious salvation, (even if it does require the cooperative work of the will of man, which notion we deny), can only happen if God changes the heart and mind from death to life.

I`m not trying to understand it, I don`t believe it. But thx for your info anyways.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Regardless, there are plenty of verses about repentence. No need for me to even look. There no salvation before repentence and I still haven`t heard any denial that what you an Jesus is are promoting is Irristable grace. I have given you both a chance to deny and/or explain your view.

Of course we won't deny Irresistible Grace. And yes, all the 5 points work together, at least to my mind, because they are intrinsically defended by the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. So even if we didn't mean to be describing Irresistible Grace, we were by default anyway. I hope you note that we don't mean by Irresistible Grace that the Holy Spirit's witness concerning truth, or his "pressure" by conviction or other influences cannot be resistible. It is only a reference to regeneration. In keeping with the Sovereignty of God and Predestination, whatever God has decided to cause, will indeed happen.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I`m not trying to understand it, I don`t believe it. But thx for your info anyways.

Does God work all things after the counsel of His will ?
Does God allow or permit anything that does not serve His purpose ?
Is God Sovereign over His creation ?

Below are just a few of many such passages one could consider regarding this topic;

Psalms 33:11
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
NASB

Isaiah 46:9-11
"Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying,'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.
NASB

Ephesians 1:5,11
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASB

If you need an actual real example of the above look no further than the biblical story of Joseph and his brothers.

Genesis 50:19-20
19 But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place? 20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
NASB


Romans 9
Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

hope this helps,

 

[RickReads]

Does God work all things after the counsel of His will ?
Does God allow or permit anything that does not serve His purpose ?
Is God Sovereign over His creation ?

Below are just a few of many such passages one could consider regarding this topic;

Psalms 33:11
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
NASB

Isaiah 46:9-11
"Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying,'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.
NASB

Ephesians 1:5,11
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASB

If you need an actual real example of the above look no further than the biblical story of Joseph and his brothers.

Genesis 50:19-20
19 But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place? 20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
NASB


Romans 9
Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

hope this helps,

Now you remind me of Bible Highlighter beating up on his army of strawmen.

 

[RickReads]

Of course we won't deny Irresistible Grace. And yes, all the 5 points work together, at least to my mind, because they are intrinsically defended by the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. So even if we didn't mean to be describing Irresistible Grace, we were by default anyway. I hope you note that we don't mean by Irresistible Grace that the Holy Spirit's witness concerning truth, or his "pressure" by conviction or other influences cannot be resistible. It is only a reference to regeneration. In keeping with the Sovereignty of God and Predestination, whatever God has decided to cause, will indeed happen.

None of that is scripture. All just doctrine of man.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Now you remind me of Bible Highlighter beating up on his army of strawmen.

I'm sorry you feel that way that is not my intent and I like you Rick. And I'm sorry and apologize if I have come across to you that way.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Does God work all things after the counsel of His will ?
Does God allow or permit anything that does not serve His purpose ?
Is God Sovereign over His creation ?

Below are just a few of many such passages one could consider regarding this topic;

Psalms 33:11
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
NASB

Isaiah 46:9-11
"Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying,'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.
NASB

Ephesians 1:5,11
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASB

If you need an actual real example of the above look no further than the biblical story of Joseph and his brothers.

Genesis 50:19-20
19 But Joseph said to them, "Do not be afraid, for am I in God's place? 20 "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
NASB


Romans 9
Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

hope this helps,

Well posted, brother!

I note that vs 20: "But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” is not the pompous shouting down of a less forceful virtuous objection, but rather it is a logical argument. Not only do we simply not operate on God's level and our minds work in ignorance of God's purposes, but the implications of the relationship of Creature to Creator imply submission by the one and ownership by the other.

"Though he slay me, yet will I praise him."

 

[Mark Quayle]

None of that is scripture. All just doctrine of man.

"My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure
....Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it." Isaiah 46

I don't want to think you deny the obvious principles given here and in so many other passages.