Why do people blame calvinists ?

[RickReads]

I'm sorry you feel that way that is not my intent and I like you Rick. And I'm sorry and apologize if I have come across to you that way.

I like you too. In a weird kinda way this has been fun. I`m not mad at ya.

 

[RickReads]

"My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure
....Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it." Isaiah 46

I don't want to think you deny the obvious principles given here and in so many other passages.

I wouldn`t dare to.

 

[J3thekingofking]

In my case, I was not interested in God and was not seeking him. But he gave me the Holy Spirit from out of the blue. And that experience made a believer out of me.

So did you believe?

 

[chad kincham]

I misunderstood you. Too many posts for me to remember what`s what.

Somebody had said that salvation comes before repentence, and I think I thought you were saying a godless person couldn`t repent.

My belief is that faith and repentence are required before someone can get saved.

And you’re correct.

It’s Calvinists that teach that we are born spiritually dead and totally depraved, so that as dead men, we can’t respond or even believe the gospel, until first being made alive by regeneration.

Thus in their dogma, to save the elect, God must zap them with irresistible grace/regeneration, so that they will be able to have faith.

Therefore their doctrine has grace/regeneration/faith coming in that order, so that the elect are first saved, and then believe.

But the Bible is so clear that the sequence of the new birth is faith/grace/regeneration.

It’s as if salvation in the Bible was horse/cart, but Calvinism is backwards and has it as cart/horse.

The proverbial cart before the horse mistake.

Shalom.

 

[RickReads]

And you’re correct.

It’s Calvinists that teach that we are born spiritually dead and totally depraved, so that as dead men, we can’t respond or even believe the gospel, until first being made alive by regeneration.

Thus in their dogma, to save the elect, God must zap them with irresistible grace/regeneration, so that they will be able to have faith.

Therefore their doctrine has grace/regeneration/faith coming in that order, so that the elect are first saved, and then believe.

But the Bible is so clear that the sequence of the new birth is faith/grace/regeneration.

It’s as if salvation in the Bible was horse/cart, but Calvinism is backwards and has it as cart/horse.

The proverbial cart before the horse mistake.

Shalom.

I`ve always felt like there was something really wrong with Calvinism but never could quite put my finger on it until now. This here is the root of the problem.

 

[chad kincham]

It is a debatable point. However, I think the standing Jesus in Stevens vision Indicates the transition from converting Israel to world evangelism without Israel. Mind you, I am not anti-Israel.

You know a lot of people like to use the I am statement. When Jesus Christ speaking in that verse was him saying that He was from above.

Though after Jesus Christ has accomplished all the things God need Him, and Jesus Christ gave everything back to God so that God may be all in all.

We do see later on in the Revelation, about how Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty on the throne.

The whole I am statement is used an a lot... those none of these things are salvation issue.

Actually when Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM - that was Him claiming to be God, and the Jews sought to stone Him for blasphemy for saying it.

 

[chad kincham]

This tells me what the Bible means by celestial. It doesn't tell me how you understand the word. That you won't simply say what it means to you actually speaks volumes.

Paul was talking about celestial bodies in space, such as the sun, and terrestrial bodies such as ours.

He wasn’t saying any beings have, or will get, celestial bodies.

 

[chad kincham]

Nope, you've got to look at all of Scripture.

5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
(Phil. 2:5-7 ASV)

Paul says that being in the form of God Jesus emptied Himself and became like man. He emptied Himself and became man. Thus His statement a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have. Again, you say Jesus is a spirit, according to Jesus He isn't.

He can’t empty Himself of His spirit, HE IS A SPIRIT.
He emptied Himself of the divine power and glory He had before incarnating in a body.

 

[chad kincham]

Never heard of that before but that seems really interesting Chad. I have no problem with your belief.

I disagree with Jesus ever being in OT, because it was GODS WORD, that was in the OT, then the word later became flesh named Jesus, in the NT. ~ ~ ~ That is just my thoughts on that subject Chad.

Me saying Jesus Christ is God, doesn't save me.

I believe that faith through grace saves us.

Actually it’s grace through faith that saves us.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

According to Christianity Today's "Christian History" it is said concerning Arminius, "It was his study of the Epistle to the Romans as an Amsterdam minister that set Jacob Arminius firmly against Calvinism. Faith, he believed, was the cause of election: "It is an eternal and gracious decree of God in Christ, by which he determines to justify and adopt believers, and to endow them with eternal life but to condemn unbelievers, and impenitent persons." "That teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace," he assured them, "provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will of that which is evil."

Per Theopedia "The theology of Arminianism was not fully developed during Arminius' time, but was systematized after his death and formalized in the Five Articles of Remonstrance in 1610." https://www.theopedia.com/jacobus-arminius

Arminius seems to have changed his views over his lifetime. I would not be surprised to find his later works to disagree with his earlier publications in some ways. But certainly, by the time of the Five Articles of Remonstrance (after he had already died (1609)), Arminianism had migrated from agreeing with Calvinism to opposing Calvinism, in particular, concerning the matter of free will.

Arminius is nothing to me.

I don’t believe in free will because of him, but because it’s scriptural.

 

[RickReads]

Actually when Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM - that was Him claiming to be God, and the Jews sought to stone Him for blasphemy for saying it.

Jesus wasn`t claiming to be the father. He was identifying Himself as the theophany that appeared to Moses aka the angel of the Lord.

 

[chad kincham]

You're espousing Dualism. That's not what the Scriptures teach. The Bible says that Christ emptied Himself and became man. Man cannot live apart from the Body. If Christ is a man He can't either.

Regarding 1 Cor. 6:19, the word "your" is plural and the word body is singular. He didn't say your bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. He said your(plural) body (singular). In other words, their church (congregation) body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. In other words the Holy Spirit dwells among their church body. This passage isn't saying the Holy Spirit is inside of their physical bodies.

That’s absolutely wrong.

If you’d stop proof-texting and put the verse in actual context, Paul’s talking about each believers body.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


That’s too clear to obfuscate.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

You're espousing Dualism. That's not what the Scriptures teach. The Bible says that Christ emptied Himself and became man. Man cannot live apart from the Body. If Christ is a man He can't either.

Regarding 1 Cor. 6:19, the word "your" is plural and the word body is singular. He didn't say your bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. He said your(plural) body (singular). In other words, their church (congregation) body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. In other words the Holy Spirit dwells among their church body. This passage isn't saying the Holy Spirit is inside of their physical bodies.

That’s absolutely wrong.

If you’d stop proof texting and put the verse in actual context, Paul’s talking about each believers body.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

That’s too clear to obfuscate.

 

[chad kincham]

Or maybe Paul is using metaphors. How can Jesus be in all of these hearts if He is flesh and bones as He said? He said He wasn't a spirit so He can't be an omnipresent spirit. He said He was flesh and Bone. The apostle John too, says that He is flesh and bone.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

Here the word translated come, is a perfect tense participle. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present. What John is saying is that Christ came in the flesh and was still in the flesh when John wrote the letter.

You haven’t answered the questions.

Is Jesus God the logos?

What form do you claim Jesus was in BEFORE He incarnated in a body, when He created the world?

The correct answers are He is God the word.

And He was, and still is, a divine spirit.

He doesn’t have a spirit, HE IS A SPIRIT.

 

[chad kincham]

That's the Holy Spirit. Scriptures says He's seated at the right hand of God. But, even apart from that people can't walk up to Jesus. He's not on earth. It's this kind of thing that leads people to these ism's. People talk about coming to Christ and what they mean is they became a believer. That's not what Jesus meant when He said no one could come to Him. People start reading the Bible like this and that's how we come to the ism's.

And yet the risen Jesus told the church in Revelation 3:20 that He stands knocking at the door of our hearts, wanting to come in and sup with us.

And Jesus equates himself with the Holy Spirit, when He said:

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

He’s sending the Holy Spirit as our comforter, yet says, I WILL COME TO YOU.

That’s why it’s called the mystery of the trinity.

Just like the mystery Paul said is CHRIST IN US, the hope of glory.

You can’t spin it. Jesus and the Holy Spirit indwells all believers.

If that was some kind of metaphor IT WOULDN'T BE A MYSTERY, would it?

 

[chad kincham]

Really? Can you reconcile these passages?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Matt. 22:44 KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 26:64 KJV)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mk. 16:19 KJV)

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:55-56 KJV)

Please, reconcile these passages with the ones you posted. You see, you're proving my point. People just take passages they want and ignore the rest. If you're open minded you'll seek to reconcile them, if not you won't.

If you can't reconcile them all, you have something wrong.

Very easy to reconcile.

God is a divine and eternal spirit, and had no body, until God the Logos, Jesus incarnated into a body.

A human body is only a house, a home that we live in until the body dies, then we leave it. 2 Corinthians 5.

The bo

Or maybe Paul is using metaphors. How can Jesus be in all of these hearts if He is flesh and bones as He said? He said He wasn't a spirit so He can't be an omnipresent spirit. He said He was flesh and Bone. The apostle John too, says that He is flesh and bone.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

Here the word translated come, is a perfect tense participle. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present. What John is saying is that Christ came in the flesh and was still in the flesh when John wrote the letter.

Of course He came in the flesh - that hardly negates the biblical fact that Jesus is God - that God IS a divine eternal spirit - that the mortal body is a house that WE live in, it is NOT us, it’s a tent we put on.

In that text Paul wasn’t proving Jesus is ONLY a physical body with no spirit inside - Paul was refuting the gnostic cult that said life is an illusion and that the physical body doesn’t really exist.

Answer the question, or we are done: in what form did Jesus exist in from all eternity and when He created the world?

 

[chad kincham]

Really? Can you reconcile these passages?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Matt. 22:44 KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matt. 26:64 KJV)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mk. 16:19 KJV)

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. (Acts 7:55-56 KJV)

Please, reconcile these passages with the ones you posted. You see, you're proving my point. People just take passages they want and ignore the rest. If you're open minded you'll seek to reconcile them, if not you won't.

If you can't reconcile them all, you have something wrong.

Very easy to reconcile.

God is a divine and eternal spirit, and had no body, until God the Logos, Jesus incarnated into a body.

A human body is only a house, a home that we live in until the body dies, then we leave it. 2 Corinthians 5.

The bo

Or maybe Paul is using metaphors. How can Jesus be in all of these hearts if He is flesh and bones as He said? He said He wasn't a spirit so He can't be an omnipresent spirit. He said He was flesh and Bone. The apostle John too, says that He is flesh and bone.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

Here the word translated come, is a perfect tense participle. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present. What John is saying is that Christ came in the flesh and was still in the flesh when John wrote the letter.

 

[John Mullally]

Let's cut to the chase. You save yourself according to Arminius. God saves you according to Calvin.

Cutting to the chase. Calvanists differ from non-Calvanists because they believe in "Total Depravity" - which is a doctrine that means that even the elect contribute nothing to their own salvation. If total depravity were true, why is the Bible filled with exhortations and directives? Why do the early church pillars of the faith, like Peter and Paul, spend considerable effort in reasoning with the "totally depraved"?

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.​

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.​

 

[chad kincham]

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that Christ is a spirit. The word is actually wind or breath. When it's translated spirit it's just a figurative useage of the word. The problem is the English word spirit is often used of a ghost, a disembodied living being. The Greek and the Hebrew words have no such meaning. It's a figure of speech. Too often when the English reader sees the word spirit, in his mind he plugs in, disembodied living being instead of wind or breath.

Scripture says God IS a spirit, a divine, eternal spirit. John 4:24

The word spirit in John 4:24 is Pneuma.

If pneuma only means breath, then God is only a breath, which is ludicrous.

The word doesn’t mean only breath or wind

Jesus is God, and thus He is an eternal divine spirit.

Obviously you deny His divinity, since you can’t admit He is a divine spirit incarnated into a body.

This is going nowhere, so enjoy your private interpretation of scripture.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

Cutting to the chase. Calvanists differ from non-Calvanists because they believe in "Total Depravity" - which is a doctrine that means that even the elect contribute nothing to their own salvation. If total depravity were true, why is the Bible filled with exhortations and directives? Why do the early church pillars of the faith, like Peter and Paul, spend considerable effort in reasoning with the "totally depraved"?

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.​

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.​

Correct.

Obviously if Calvinism was a fact, nothing Paul did could affect salvations, so becoming all things to all men would be useless.

Shalom.