Why do people blame calvinists ?

[Mark Quayle]

Sinners often feel guilt and regret for their transgressions. Your opinion that they don`t makes you sound like you`ve pretty much just known religeous people in your life.

My opinion is not that they don't feel guilt and regret for their transgressions. (For that matter, even dogs feel guilt too, not to mention fear and regret). And I'm not even saying the Spirit of God doesn't do deal with them according to his purposes. (In fact, there's an account in the OT of a person prophesying by the Spirit of God, who is seen as having no evidence of being redeemed.)

You are missing the point completely. People like to feel good, they want a clean conscience, but that doesn't mean that they are not at enmity with God. Total depravity doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be, but that everything they do is corrupted. This is why it is also termed, Total Inability. Here's one Biblical claim, not that a person cannot on the surface comply with the law, but mere compliance is not submission, and so, not obedience, to God. Romans 8: "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

 

[StillGods]

Until you describe the new birth experience, the ball remains in your court. It's important, without the New Birth you cannot understand scripture. It tells me if I'm wasting my time or not.

You might want to tell him why you believe yourself to be saved, unless you simply disrespect him and don't care what he thinks of you.

I have already stated why I do not share my experience, so that it is not picked apart and sullied in the process.

 

[RickReads]

My opinion is not that they don't feel guilt and regret for their transgressions.

The Bible says different.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

 

[Dave L]

are you judging me? hehe

Not yet.

 

[Butch5]

They thought He was a ghost.

He informed them that His body is physical..

Which has absolutely no bearing on the fact that His eternal divine Spirit indwells His body, just like our spirit indwells our body.

When you mention your body to someone, like your doctor, do you add that you have a spirit indwelling it?

Of course not.

You might need a Logic 101 class...

Logic, that's pretty good, especially since you're denying it. What was Jesus' reply? Did He say, it is my body? Or, did He say it is I? I denotes the person. Just like when Adam sinned and God said to Adam, 'you are dust'. He didn't say, your body is dust. He said 'you are dust'. You denotes the person. The whole person.

As I said, you're espousing Dualism. What I've posted shows that the Bible teaches that man is not dualistic. Above you said, "our spirit", what is "our spirit"?

 

[chad kincham]

Logic, that's pretty good, especially since you're denying it. What was Jesus' reply? Did He say, it is my body? Or, did He say it is I? I denotes the person. Just like when Adam sinned and God said to Adam, 'you are dust'. He didn't say, your body is dust. He said 'you are dust'. You denotes the person. The whole person.

As I said, you're espousing Dualism. What I've posted shows that the Bible teaches that man is not dualistic. Above you said, "our spirit", what is "our spirit"?

God made man in His image.

God is a spirit, says scripture, and has no body.

Therefore our physical body cannot be the image of God.

God, a spirit, created us as a spirit being, and put us in a temporary home called a mortal physical body.

You need to explain in what form Jesus existed before God the father made a body for Him that He incarnated into.

You need to explain why Jesus committed His SPIRIT to the Father as He died on the cross.

He is a divine spirit, 2nd member of the triune Godhead who also has an immortal body, and only has it because He incarnated into it, so He could die on a cross for our sins.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

God made man in His image.

God is a spirit, says scripture, and has no body.

Therefore our physical body cannot be the image of God.

God, a spirit, created us as a spirit being, and put us in a temporary home called a mortal physical body.

You need to explain in what form Jesus existed before God the father made a body for Him that He incarnated into.

You need to explain why Jesus committed His SPIRIT to the Father as He died on the cross.

He is a divine spirit, 2nd member of the triune Godhead who also has an immortal body, and only has it because He incarnated into it, so He could die on a cross for our sins.

Where does scripture say our body is temporary?

Do you believe in the Resurrection of the body ?

 

[chad kincham]

Where does scripture say our body is temporary?

Do you believe in the Resurrection of the body ?

You don’t think our mortal body is a temporary home that we leave at death, to be present with the Lord?

It’s not immortal until after the resurrection when it’s raised an immortal body - and only the righteous dead get an immortal body - the damned don’t get one.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You don’t think our mortal body is a temporary home that we leave at death, to be present with the Lord?

It’s not immortal until after the resurrection when it’s raised an immortal body - and only the righteous dead get an immortal body - the damned don’t get one.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58. Our future spiritual bodies are not immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable. Paul makes these parallels:

Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)
Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)
Weak- Powerful (verse 43)
Natural-Supernatural (verse 44)
Mortal- Immortal (verse 53)

Also there is the Resurrection for the unrighteous. They will also have bodies in which to suffer their torment.

 

[chad kincham]

1 Corinthians 15:50-58. Our future spiritual bodies are not immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable. Paul makes these parallels:

Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)
Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)
Weak- Powerful (verse 43)
Natural-Supernatural (verse 44)
Mortal- Immortal (verse 53)

Also there is the Resurrection for the unrighteous. They will also have bodies in which to suffer their torment.

Body and soul is destroyed in hell, said Jesus.

No one has a body in the lake of fire, it’s their immortal spirit that is tormented - just like the fallen angels who are spirits, are.


And if you look at what I wrote again, I said our present mortal bodies are a temporary home we leave at death, to be present with the Lord, 2Corinthians 5:8.

I also said only after the resurrection do believers get an immortal body - I said nothing about it being invisible.

Shalom.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Body and soul is destroyed in hell, said Jesus.

No one has a body in the lake of fire, it’s their immortal spirit that is tormented - just like the fallen angels who are spirits, are.


And if you look at what I wrote again, I said our present mortal bodies are a temporary home we leave at death, to be present with the Lord, 2Corinthians 5:8.

I also said only after the resurrection do believers get an immortal body - I said nothing about it being invisible.

Shalom.

Destroyed is not annihilated. There is a resurrection to eternal life and a resurrection for those who have done evil, a Resurrection of condemnation in John 5:29 who will be resurrected to face their Judgment and then they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and which is the 2nd Death in Revelation 20:12-15 and Revelation 21:8. Paul says there is both the Resurrection of the just and the unjust in Acts 24:15.

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

NASB Translation
bring (1), destroy (17), destroyed (9), dying (1), end (1), killed (1), lose (10), loses (7), lost (14), passed away (1), perish (14), perishable (1), perished (4), perishes (1), perishing (6), put to death (1), ruined (3).


hope this helps !!!

 

[chad kincham]

The Reformed happily claim people make choices --real choices, in fact, with real results. It is the Bible that says people are dead spiritually --do you not know what "without me you can do nothing" means?

Before we got saved by grace THROUGH faith, we were separated from God due to our sins. Spiritual death is separation from God in scripture. Adam died the day he sinned, as God promised, but lived for centuries physically.


Being separated from God spiritually does not mean total inability to respond to the faith, which is the gift God gives us when we hear the word : Romans 10:17 (faith comes by hearing the word - not from being zapped with irresistible grace, and being regenerated) , and we then have to choose to either receive Jesus to become a child of God, John 1:12, or reject Jesus, (as His own elect nation of Israel, whom He came for, did) John 1:11.


Israel was God’s elect nation. Isaiah 45:4. Israel is who Jesus specifically came for, Matthew 15:24.


Yet though they were Gods elect, and Jesus, who is God, came specifically to save them - they rejected Him - which is impossible to do in reformed election dogma.


Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT.


Yes, this is the same people that Jesus, who is God, came for, and He yearned for them to come to Him, but He didn’t get what he so greatly desired:


Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and AND YE WOULD NOT!


The above is impossible in Calvinism - yet it happened. Jesus came for His own, His elect, and they rejected Him and rejected salvation.


Stephen preached to those same people that rejected Jesus, and shows us HOW they rejected Jesus, and killed the prophets God sent them - because they resist the Holy Spirit.


Yes, the Holy Spirit, without which no man can say, Jesus is Lord, is not irresistible as your doctrine claims.


There’s no irresistible grace - because God allows us the free will to resist the Holy Spirit.


Stephen said:


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?


Reformed doctrine is simply wrong - besides being an insult of the character and nature of God.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

Destroyed is not annihilated. There is a resurrection to eternal life and a resurrection for those who have done evil, a Resurrection of condemnation in John 5:29 who will be resurrected to face their Judgment and then they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and which is the 2nd Death in Revelation 20:12-15 and Revelation 21:8. Paul says there is both the Resurrection of the just and the unjust in Acts 24:15.

hope this helps !!!

Except that since hell fire destroys body and soul in hell, the lake of fire will also destroy their bodies and souls, leaving their spirit.

Nothing says the damned are raised with immortal bodies at judgment day, that I’ve ever seen.

Shalom.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have already stated why I do not share my experience, so that it is not picked apart and sullied in the process.

You may be surprised what the Reformed think of a person's "salvation experience". I know (and love) many more Christians who think Calvinism is wrong than I do Calvinists. I do not say their theology determines their salvation, nor do most Calvinists I know, but that God does. Your take on what happened, then, is not what determines who you are to Christ.

Something about the way a person speaks of Christ, and what they think of themselves, tells me more than their apparent theology does. And sometimes, the Holy Spirit seems to affirm or even reorganize thoughts for me concerning people.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Being separated from God spiritually does not mean total inability to respond to the faith, which is the gift God gives us when we hear the word : Romans 10:17 (faith comes by hearing the word - not from being zapped with irresistible grace, and being regenerated)

Who says, "zapped with irresistible grace"? We too believe faith is the gift of God, and comes by hearing the Word of God. We don't believe it is a decision that one can make without faith, and this gift of faith, that comes by hearing the Word of God is the work of the Holy Spirit in the person. The change is usually so nearly simultaneous that one doesn't even see a sequence, but if one wants to claim that he can have faith quite separately from the work of the Spirit of God, he either is badly mistaken, or has no salvific faith.

Again, the work of the Spirit of God in the Elect regenerates them. I am not so sure it is not accurate to say salvific faith IS the Spirit of God in the person, so sure I am that it is HIS work, and not the product of the will of the person. I cannot consider it valid or any integrity or constancy if it is my doing --but if it is the Spirit of God in me, it will never fail, and is based on full knowledge of just what the mercy of God is and of what Christ has done, because it is based on what God himself knows and who he is.

And, again, the mind of the flesh is hostile to God. It cannot please God. It will not submit. God has to change it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Bible says different.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

I just said, "My opinion is not that they don't feel guilt and regret for their transgressions." Notice the "not" in that sentence. You show me the Bible agreeing with me --not disagreeing.

 

[RickReads]

I just said, "My opinion is not that they don't feel guilt and regret for their transgressions." Notice the "not" in that sentence. You show me the Bible agreeing with me --not disagreeing.

I misunderstood you. Too many posts for me to remember what`s what.

Somebody had said that salvation comes before repentence, and I think I thought you were saying a godless person couldn`t repent.

My belief is that faith and repentence are required before someone can get saved.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Somebody had said that salvation comes before repentence, and I think I thought you were saying a godless person couldn't repent.

I say that regeneration comes before salvation and likewise, before repentance, as the dead heart cannot truly repent, nor does it want to. Its kind of repentance is like its kind of obedience or confession. Admission, but no submission. Compliance, but no submission. Repentance but only because of regret --not submission. Regeneration PRODUCES, inevitably, repentance.

Sinners CAN repent, but only as God enables them. True repentance is of God, not of strength of will or desire of the sinner.

 

[chad kincham]

Who says, "zapped with irresistible grace"? We too believe faith is the gift of God, and comes by hearing the Word of God. We don't believe it is a decision that one can make without faith, and this gift of faith, that comes by hearing the Word of God is the work of the Holy Spirit in the person. The change is usually so nearly simultaneous that one doesn't even see a sequence, but if one wants to claim that he can have faith quite separately from the work of the Spirit of God, he either is badly mistaken, or has no salvific faith.

Again, the work of the Spirit of God in the Elect regenerates them. I am not so sure it is not accurate to say salvific faith IS the Spirit of God in the person, so sure I am that it is HIS work, and not the product of the will of the person. I cannot consider it valid or any integrity or constancy if it is my doing --but if it is the Spirit of God in me, it will never fail, and is based on full knowledge of just what the mercy of God is and of what Christ has done, because it is based on what God himself knows and who he is.

And, again, the mind of the flesh is hostile to God. It cannot please God. It will not submit. God has to change it.

Calvinists claim that man is so spiritually dead and depraved, that he’s unable to believe until he’s first made alive by regeneration.

Thus the elect get zapped with irresistible grace, and regenerated, and only after that can they believe.

Therefore in reformed dogma, grace and regeneration must precede faith, which Calvinists like Sproul freely admit.

The problem with that is that it’s completely wrong.

The Bible is crystal clear that faith precedes grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 by grace are you saved THROUGH faith.

Notice that faith is how you get to grace.

Faith is how you access grace:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access BY faith INTO this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it isof FAITH that it might be by GRACE; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Faith comes first. Therefore Calvinists have a serious problem because a key doctrine is not only wrong - it’s backwards.

Calvinist sequence of salvation is grace/regeneration/faith

Whereas the Bible sequence of salvation is faith/grace/regeneration.

That’s because the Bible says faith comes by hearing the word of God - not by prior grace/regeneration.

The Holy Spirit sufficiently enlightens the unconverted to have faith when they hear the word of God preached.


Romans 10:17states how faith comes - it comes by hearing the word of God.


The Holy Spirit, who is the one who draws us to Christ, sufficiently enlightens those who hear the word of God, enough to believe.


Once we have faith, we have freewill to either reject Jesus, as the elect nation of Israel did John 1:11, or to receive Jesus, and become a child of God John 1:12.


Israel was God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4.


Israel is who Jesus specifically came for, Matthew 15:24.


Yet though they were Gods own elect, and Jesus came specifically to save them, they rejected Him.


Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT.


So we have freewill.


We have freewill because the Holy Spirit, who gives faith to those who hear, and who draws us to Jesus, can be resisted.


Stephen preached to those elect Jews who rejected Jesus in John 1:11, who refused to come to Jesus (though He yearned for them to) Luke 13:34, and explained HOW they were able to reject and kill Jesus, and to kill the prophets God sent them - because they resist the Holy Spirit.


Stephen said:



Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


So salvation requires not only faith that comes from hearing the word, but requires making the freewill choice to receive Jesus, John 1:12, or to resist the Holy Spirit Acts 7:51, and reject Jesus John 1:11.


Shalom.

 

[StillGods]

You may be surprised what the Reformed think of a person's "salvation experience". I know (and love) many more Christians who think Calvinism is wrong than I do Calvinists. I do not say their theology determines their salvation, nor do most Calvinists I know, but that God does. Your take on what happened, then, is not what determines who you are to Christ.

Something about the way a person speaks of Christ, and what they think of themselves, tells me more than their apparent theology does. And sometimes, the Holy Spirit seems to affirm or even reorganize thoughts for me concerning people.

thanks for your thoughts however i've had calvinists dissect my salvation experience a few times and it was really hurtful, even Dave L admits he is waiting to judge me based on it so yeah...I wont be sharing it anytime soon here. other places without calvinists sure but not here it's not safe.