Why do people believe in evolution?

[QvQ]

1 -2) Obama is not the phenotype of his mother. However, since the ruling MtDNA may select the traits of the phenotype, there may be a preference for the African genes. The horses, for example, the Morgan are studs which produce progeny like the father. However, the Morgans will revert to type if bred into different studs or naturally selected in feral herds. Simple Explanation

4) IF a Human Male mates with a Neandertal Female there will be a traceable MtDNA line to that Neandertal Female in any living descendants. That is a Fact and there isn't. So no evidence, the simplest evidence of Human/Neandertal mating. Now you are being obtuse, denying a simple fact.

In #3, a detrimental genetic disorder that cannot be selected out. What I am saying is, there may be other mechanisms that would correct those genetic defects over time. Consider possibilities. Genetics is new. If these damaged genes arise they may un-arise. Natural Selection may be theory but it may not be the true answer to genetic mutation.
#5 The original DNA test did not indicate any shared DNA between Humans and Neandertals. Then, after a uproar because what was expected was not the result, there was further research that discovered a small amount of DNA supposedly Neandertal. There still isn't any Neandertal MtDNA in humans.
I have studied evolution for a very long time. I have seen the frauds, the politics of academics, the guesses and flawed studies.
Genetics might answer some questions but after the Neandertal genetics uproar, I wonder.

 

[QvQ]

1 -2) Obama is not the phenotype of his mother. However, since the ruling MtDNA may select the traits of the phenotype, there may be a preference for the African genes. The horses, for example, the Morgan are studs which produce progeny like the father. However, the Morgans will revert to type if bred into different studs or naturally selected in feral herds. Simple Explanation

4) IF a Human Male mates with a Neandertal Female there will be a traceable MtDNA line to that Neandertal Female in any living descendants. That is a Fact and there isn't. So no evidence, the simplest evidence of Human/Neandertal mating. Now you are being obtuse, denying a simple fact.

In #3, a detrimental genetic disorder that cannot be selected out. What I am saying is, there may be other mechanisms that would correct those genetic defects over time. Consider possibilities. Genetics is new. If these damaged genes arise they may un-arise. Natural Selection may be theory but it may not be the true answer to genetic mutation.
#5 The original DNA test did not indicate any shared DNA between Humans and Neandertals. Then, after a uproar because what was expected was not the result, there was further research that discovered a small amount of DNA supposedly Neandertal. There still isn't any Neandertal MtDNA in humans.
I have studied evolution for a very long time. I have seen the frauds, the politics of academics, the guesses and flawed studies.
Genetics might answer some questions but after the Neandertal genetics uproar, I wonder.

Further, mtDNA affects all of these organs (The Phenotype)
Although the health consequences of inherited mitochondrial DNA mutations vary widely, frequently observed features include muscle weakness and wasting, problems with movement, diabetes, kidney failure, heart disease, loss of intellectual functions (dementia), hearing loss, and abnormalities involving the eyes and ...

 

[Shemjaza]

1 -2) Obama is not the phenotype of his mother. However, since the ruling MtDNA may select the traits of the phenotype, there may be a preference for the African genes. The horses, for example, the Morgan are studs which produce progeny like the father. However, the Morgans will revert to type if bred into different studs or naturally selected in feral herds. Simple Explanation

If Obama got a mtDNA test then I imagine it would just return that he was likely from Western Europe... just as my hypothetical Icelandic people would be detect as Southern African.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make with the horses. A line of horses will be similar to their fathers... but in later generations they will resemble the fathers of those generations?

What you haven't defined or demonstrated is that if mtDNA has any ability or effect on on what you are calling "type".

4) IF a Human Male mates with a Neandertal Female there will be a traceable MtDNA line to that Neandertal Female in any living descendants. That is a Fact and there isn't. So no evidence, the simplest evidence of Human/Neandertal mating. Now you are being obtuse, denying a simple fact.

The genetic commonalities are the simplest evidence for human Neanderthal mating.

For there to be Neanderthal mtDNA in modern humans there would have to be an unbroken female line back to a Neanderthal woman... hardly a certainty with the limited interbreeding that evidently occurred. Apparently we have no evidence of such an unbroken female line, but I fail to see this as particularly damning.

In #3, a detrimental genetic disorder that cannot be selected out. What I am saying is, there may be other mechanisms that would correct those genetic defects over time. Consider possibilities. Genetics is new. If these damaged genes arise they may un-arise. Natural Selection may be theory but it may not be the true answer to genetic mutation.

You repeat that "a detrimental genetic disorder that cannot be selected out", but you don't explain why? It's detrimental, so it will be detrimental to the genetic line that features it.

Natural selection isn't the answer to genetic mutation, it's the auditor of it.

Mutation creatures new variety and that creates new phenotypes... new phenotypes are selected or not on a statistical basis on a population scale.

#5 The original DNA test did not indicate any shared DNA between Humans and Neandertals. Then, after a uproar because what was expected was not the result, there was further research that discovered a small amount of DNA supposedly Neandertal. There still isn't any Neandertal MtDNA in humans.

I'm very dubious of either this scenario or at least your interpretation of it. Do you have a reliable source?

As I said, I'm not disputing the lack of Neanderthal mtDNA, I'm disputing its relevance.

I have studied evolution for a very long time. I have seen the frauds, the politics of academics, the guesses and flawed studies.
Genetics might answer some questions but after the Neandertal genetics uproar, I wonder.

I am dubious.

What is your source for these frauds and Neandertal genetics?

 

[Subduction Zone]

1) The San woman is interesting. I will research that, what the genetics would be over generations.
2) The horses are a combination of all different divergent breeds. However after 500 years of feral, the horses are phenotypes strongly indicative of their respective mitochondrial DNA. Revert to Type
3) The fact remains that a disease seriously disadvantageous to survival of the species cannot be naturally selected out of the species.
4) Neandertal MtDNA...If a Human Male mated with a Female Neandertal, then the resulting offspring would have Neandertal MtDNA.
5) Humans share some DNA with Neandertals...and Mice..(not me though, I don't like cheese)
And I was just getting started on the "inconvenient truths" of evolution...
I research subjects carefully. I don't assume, based on some biology class I took years ago as some poster do. In fact, not so old biology books state that Neandertals and Peking man are co-equal multipoint origin, mostly discredited idea although the Chinese political/university machine is trying to resurrect that by making the Peking Man older and therefore Ancestor to Neandertal. Ancestor is superior in China.

You mentioned no "inconvenient truths". You only illustrated that you do not understand this topic. And you were corrected at least once on MtDNA. It does not tell type. It only gives us the matrilineal line. As to human/Neanderthal mating the evidence tells us that it was male Neanderthals mating with female Homo Sapiens. There is nothing inconvenient about that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Further, mtDNA affects all of these organs (The Phenotype)
Although the health consequences of inherited mitochondrial DNA mutations vary widely, frequently observed features include muscle weakness and wasting, problems with movement, diabetes, kidney failure, heart disease, loss of intellectual functions (dementia), hearing loss, and abnormalities involving the eyes and ...

Some mutations may take a while to remove from the genome. And recent mutations run into the fact that humans are now social creatures living in a civilization. That changes the what traits are selected and what traits are eliminated. You are trying to argue against evolution based upon your misunderstanding of the science. That never works out too well.

 

[QvQ]

You mentioned no "inconvenient truths". You only illustrated that you do not understand this topic. And you were corrected at least once on MtDNA. It does not tell type. It only gives us the matrilineal line. As to human/Neanderthal mating the evidence tells us that it was male Neanderthals mating with female Homo Sapiens. There is nothing inconvenient about that.

And I posted how many organs are affected by mtDNA. It certainly does more than "give us the female line."

 

[Subduction Zone]

And I posted how many organs are affected by mtDNA. It certainly does more than "give us the female line."

I must have missed that. But since mtDNA only rules over mitochondria I would love to hear how many organs are affected by this.

EDIT: Oh, you made a claim without providing any evidence. I was right to ignore that.

 

[QvQ]

I must have missed that. But since mtDNA only rules over mitochondria I would love to hear how many organs are affected by this.

EDIT: Oh, you made a claim without providing any evidence. I was right to ignore that.

"Although the health consequences of inherited mitochondrial DNA mutations vary widely, frequently observed features include muscle weakness and wasting, problems with movement, diabetes, kidney failure, heart disease, loss of intellectual functions (dementia), hearing loss, and abnormalities involving the eyes and ..."

 

[QvQ]

"Although the health consequences of inherited mitochondrial DNA mutations vary widely, frequently observed features include muscle weakness and wasting, problems with movement, diabetes, kidney failure, heart disease, loss of intellectual functions (dementia), hearing loss, and abnormalities involving the eyes and ..."

So Correct Copies of mtDNA are necessary for correct organ/function

 

[Shemjaza]

So Correct Copies of mtDNA are necessary for correct organ/function

Yes it affects the organisms... but you were stating that the difference between "types" of horses could be defined by changes instigated by mtDNA.

That just isn't true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"Although the health consequences of inherited mitochondrial DNA mutations vary widely, frequently observed features include muscle weakness and wasting, problems with movement, diabetes, kidney failure, heart disease, loss of intellectual functions (dementia), hearing loss, and abnormalities involving the eyes and ..."

An unsourced quote is worthless.

Aah! Found the source:

Can changes in mitochondrial DNA affect health and development?: MedlinePlus Genetics

It looks like a misapplication of a medical article. Yes, mtDNA can have negative mutations. Though that appears to be rare. In the past, before civilization, those mutations would very likely impair the organism that had them with its ability to pass its genes on. They would have been taken out by selection. Different pressures apply now that civilization is a fact. That does not harm the theory of evolution at all.

 

[QvQ]

Yes it affects the organisms... but you were stating that the difference between "types" of horses could be defined by changes instigated by mtDNA.

That just isn't true.

No, I said..
The horse can be bred to many different breeds, many different types. This is due to selective breeding mostly and other factors. Many American/Spanish breeds, Paso Fino, Crullo, Lusitano, all fine domestic breeds descended from Menorquina and Sorraia based on mtDNA studies.
When those "breeds" become feral horses the Type reverts to the same phenotype as primitive horses that share that mtDNA.
Many horses in America have ancestoral mtDNA from Marismeño and Sorraia, both primitive horses. The feral descendents that have Marismeño and Sorraia mtDNA have phenotypes that identify them as those primitives.
Now, the question is..what is it about that mtDNA that rules the reversion to type as it is the only thing those ferals share?
Ferals. whatever the in-between breeds, revert to primitive phenotype of the mtDNA.
So, yes, and it more of a question..those ferals can be identified by changes that may be instigated by the mtDNA..in the natural state, without human selection of breeding.
New idea to me..just a thought

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I said..
The horse can be bred to many different breeds, many different types. This is due to selective breeding mostly and other factors possibly
When those "breeds" become feral horses the Type reverts to the same phenotype as horses that share that mtDNA.
Many horses in America have ancestoral mtDNA from Menorquina and Sorraia, both primitive horses. The feral descendents of those two breeds have phenotypes (and mtDNA) that identify them as those primitives.
Now, the question is..what is it about that mtDNA that rules the reversion to type as it is the only thing those ferals share?
Ferals. whatever the in-between breeds, revert to primitive phenotype of the mtDNA.
So, yes, and it more of a question..those ferals can be identified by changes that may be instigated by the mtDNA..in the natural state, without human selection of breeding.
New idea to me..just a thought

And once again you show that you do not understand mtDNA. It only provides power for the cells. It does not cause a species to "return to type". That is a meaningless statement in itself. You would need to support your claim that changes in mtDNA accounts for any changes in horses at all.

Remember, quote plus link to an applicable reliable source.

 

[Shemjaza]

No, I said..
The horse can be bred to many different breeds, many different types. This is due to selective breeding mostly and other factors. Many American/Spanish breeds, Paso Fino, Crullo, Lusitano, all fine domestic breeds descended from Menorquina and Sorraia based on mtDNA studies.
When those "breeds" become feral horses the Type reverts to the same phenotype as primitive horses that share that mtDNA.
Many horses in America have ancestoral mtDNA from Menorquina and Sorraia, both primitive horses. The feral descendents that have Menorquina and Sorraia mtDNA have phenotypes that identify them as those primitives.
Now, the question is..what is it about that mtDNA that rules the reversion to type as it is the only thing those ferals share?
Ferals. whatever the in-between breeds, revert to primitive phenotype of the mtDNA.
So, yes, and it more of a question..those ferals can be identified by changes that may be instigated by the mtDNA..in the natural state, without human selection of breeding.
New idea to me..just a thought

That's the point, that just isn't true.

All you can get from the mtDNA is their maternal lineage. That might be useful as an identifier in some instances, but it doesn't govern changes in type in any way.

The sorts of changes you see in populations that have gone feral for many generations just aren't governed by mtDNA.

I guarantee that a full genetic study of the two separate feral populations would not show any reversion, because there just isn't any evidence for or even proposed mechanism for that kind of change.

You haven't even clearly defined what a type in in your context.

 

[QvQ]

That's the point, that just isn't true.

All you can get from the mtDNA is their maternal lineage. That might be useful as an identifier in some instances, but it doesn't govern changes in type in any way.

The sorts of changes you see in populations that have gone feral for many generations just aren't governed by mtDNA.

I guarantee that a full genetic study of the two separate feral populations would not show any reversion, because there just isn't any evidence for or even proposed mechanism for that kind of change.

You haven't even clearly defined what a type in in your context.

Full genetic study of two separate feral populations shows that ferals with Sorraia mtDNA have phenotypes of Sorraia (primitive). There have been Many Studies done on the ferals, both in Spain and the US because those primitives are Foundation Stock of many Iberian and American Breed.
So say, horses of many different breeds (with many phenotypes), who descended from Foundation Stock Sorraia mtDNA will become (revert to) the phenotype of the Foundation Stock under natural conditions and selection.

Same a marigolds a small orange red flower..which can be bred into many colors, petal shape and number, size but if planted out in the wilds will become the phenotype of the ancestral marigold, small orange flower.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Full genetic study of two separate feral populations shows that ferals with Sorraia mtDNA have phenotypes of Sorraia (primitive). There have been Many Studies done on the ferals, both in Spain and the US because those primitives are Foundation Stock of many Iberian and American Breed.
So say, horses of many different breeds (with many phenotypes), who descended from Foundation Stock Sorraia mtDNA will become (revert to) the phenotype of the Foundation Stock under natural conditions and selection.

Same a marigolds a small orange red flower..which can be bred into many colors, petal shape and number, size but if planted out in the wilds will become the phenotype of the ancestral marigold, small orange flower.

Quotes or claims without sources are worthless. For example when I found your last source it was clear what your error was.

 

[Shemjaza]

Full genetic study of two separate feral populations shows that ferals with Sorraia mtDNA have phenotypes of Sorraia (primitive). There have been Many Studies done on the ferals, both in Spain and the US because those primitives are Foundation Stock of many Iberian and American Breed.
So say, horses of many different breeds (with many phenotypes), who descended from Foundation Stock Sorraia mtDNA will become (revert to) the phenotype of the Foundation Stock under natural conditions and selection.

Same a marigolds a small orange red flower..which can be bred into many colors, petal shape and number, size but if planted out in the wilds will become the phenotype of the ancestral marigold, small orange flower.

If we are describing traits present in the domestic population then rising to prominence in wild population... then that's perfectly logical. If we are talking about lost genetic traits that are recreated somehow, then that is nonsense.

When you say "Full genetic study of two separate feral populations shows that ferals with Sorraia mtDNA have phenotypes of Sorraia (primitive)." do you mean genetic (not mtDNA) or merely outward appearance?

 

[QvQ]

mtDNA may play a role in the selection of DNA (recombination) resulting in phenotype (genetic)

It may also be involved in the organization and construction of the DNA strands of a particular organism.

I think that is the simplest way to state this at a chemical, genetic, biological level.

The mtDNA governs the phenotype (DNA) of the organism.

 

[Subduction Zone]

mtDNA may play a role in the selection of DNA (recombination) resulting in phenotype (genetic)

It may also be involved in the organization and construction of the DNA strands of a particular organism.

I think that is the simplest way to state this at a chemical, genetic, biological level.

The mtDNA governs the phenotype (DNA) of the organism.

Again, empty claims are worthless. And it appears that you still do not understand the role the two different DNA's play. One cannot work backwards from mtDNA. One can only trace the matrilineal line. You cannot "restore phenotype" that way.

 

[Shemjaza]

mtDNA may play a role in the selection of DNA (recombination) resulting in phenotype (genetic)

It may also be involved in the organization and construction of the DNA strands of a particular organism.

I think that is the simplest way to state this at a chemical, genetic, biological level.

The mtDNA governs the phenotype (DNA) of the organism.

Why would we assume that?

There's no evidence and no mechanism.

We understand how reproduction and inheritance works... there isn't some magical "type"that you inherit only from your maternal ancestors that rewrites your body plan.

My question is why are you assuming this? Is this an elaborate attempt to find pre-encoded design?