Why do people believe in evolution?

[ViaCrucis]

Until the Nuts and Bolts:
Solve this Puzzle...500 years of "evolution" not 500000000000000
Spanish imported horses to America starting in 1493. Spanish were and are renowned for useful and useable horses, Andulasians, Lusitanos, Lippanzer. Also, there is a small herd of primitive horses, Sorraia, which were thought to be extinct (when?) due to meat hunters. The Sorraia are related to Mongollian ponies. Remnant of the Iberian herd was rediscovered in 1920 approx.
The US Forestry conducted DNA test on American feral horses (Mustangs) and concluded the Spanish Mustangs were Sorraia.
The Spanish Government conducted DNA test on Iberian horses. The main lines were Exmore Ponies with a few Sorraia, however so few Sorraia lines exist, the results were inconclusive.
1) Did the Spanish, Cortez, import primitive rare Sorraia or the well bred useful stock? (Did the Spanish equip their expeditions 4 wheel drive vehicles or roller skates?)Historically, good horses were reported to be imported.
2) Did the better bred domestic stock De-Evolve under natural conditions and natural selection into the Original Sorraia without leaving evidence of the more recent breeds in the DNA (My Selection)
3) Could Sorraia have been the original American horse, thought to be extinct, and was in America before the Spanish arrived?
4) Have the Sorraia Mustang evolved or even bred into a different breed than the Sorraia in Spain? If #3 is correct then there should be some evidence of mixing with the later Spanish introduced stock. (? haven't seen any research)
So, can we trace "evolution" of this horse? Do we know anything more about the origin of this "species?"
#2 is serious as it implies that traces of DNA evidence are wiped clean and are not a good record.

Just so I understand clearly what you're saying:

DNA studies were done which showed that American mustangs, descended from Spanish horse breeds are genetically related to Sorraia horses indigenous to the Iberian peninsula. Correct?

In other words these mustangs, descended from imported Spanish horses, which themselves descended from the Iberian Sorraia have genetic connections with Sorraia horses?

I don't get it. All you're telling me is that American mustangs are related to the Sorraia horses of Spain, which makes perfect sense if mustangs are feral descendants of imported Spanish breeds that themselves were bred from the Sorraia.

Am I missing something here?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not Mutating, In Out Line Breeding, recombining existing genes
I read a while ago that the King Ranch had an exact ratio of several breeds of cattle, shorthorns, brahmas and one other, possibly angus that was used to create the Santa Getrudis.
It is a ratio used to create a set of lines to avoid inbreeding
The Morgan horse was a fluke, as was the Steel Dust but those original horses were in and out bred to various lines to create XMorgan which may or may not resemble the original.
It is not possible to exam the DNA of a Morgan and determine what set of horse genes or breeds created the original.

You are ignoring the fact that new traits do arise from mutations. Every generation has on the order of 100 mutations. Most of those are totally benign. A small percentage are harmful, but they tend to quickly get weeded out by natural selection. An even smaller number are positive and they can and are passed on. Populations that are separated from other populations will have unique genes that arise from this process with is why many lines cannot be reproduced. We can come close but there can be essential traits missing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

One of the things I like about Physics is there are questions, IF's, constant examination of the truths in quantum mechanics, whether Laplace is correct and Darwin is right.
Even the general public can follow these arguments but evolution is the absolute truth, swallow whatever Professor Nonsense is spouting today about Darwin and don't question anything.
I agree with you about Quantum Mechanics but then..what IF IF IF Laplace and Newton are right?

Newton has been shown to be wrong. It is that simple. Quantum dynamics explains things that Newton cannot. And no one is making a God of Darwin. He has been corrected in various errors in his work. That does not mean that the basic principles are not sound. Just as Newton was accurate enough to get us to the Moon and back Darwin was accurate enough for the layman.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Physicist Stephen Hawking quote Feb 17, 2017

Quotes without links and sources are worthless. It could be an example of quote mining, in fact it looks like one. Or it could be a false claim.

 

[pitabread]

Quotes without links and sources are worthless. It could be an example of quote mining, in fact it looks like one. Or it could be a false claim.

Per what Tinker Grey posted above, it wasn't a Hawking quote at all. It was just a copy paste from a blog site that someone else wrote.

 

[QvQ]

Just so I understand clearly what you're saying:

DNA studies were done which showed that American mustangs, descended from Spanish horse breeds are genetically related to Sorraia horses indigenous to the Iberian peninsula. Correct?

In other words these mustangs, descended from imported Spanish horses, which themselves descended from the Iberian Sorraia have genetic connections with Sorraia horses?

I don't get it. All you're telling me is that American mustangs are related to the Sorraia horses of Spain, which makes perfect sense if mustangs are feral descendants of imported Spanish breeds that themselves were bred from the Sorraia.


Am I missing something here?

-CryptoLutheran

Missing #3 Mongollian Horse...
There are 500 years of historical records and modern blood/ DNA tests:
Perhaps descended from Spanish domestic horses but within 500 years Mustangs are very similar to Sorraia, Sorraia were not imported as "pure" (1)
I had hands on one of these mustangs as a relative is a professional trainer. The mustang is a horse of a different color. I also rode a Peruvian Paso during that visit (nothing primitive about a Paso!)
That is Devolving..(2)
Many people contend that the Sorraia Mustang is the American Horse thought to be extinct. That means "Spanish horse descended from Spanish Horse is not necessarily correct. May be from Mongollia (3)
Mitochondrial DNA...All the DNA studies are mitochondrial DNA.
1) If the horse is devolving shedding centuries of selected breeding then where in the DNA would those centuries be recorded? Could we tell from Mustang DNA that his ancestors were Andulasian or Lusitano?
2) If the horse is devolving, shedding centuries of selected breeding, then it seems to me that the Blue Print for the Species is Mitochondrial DNA.
Mitochondrial DNA is the blue print for the Species. Yes or No
If Mitochondrial DNA is a Blue Print that Species revert to, gaining or shedding "evolved" changes then "evolution" is an illusion, merely changing clothes to suit the weather, so to speak, but the basic form or species remains the same...

 

[Subduction Zone]

Per what Tinker Grey posted above, it wasn't a Hawking quote at all. It was just a copy paste from a blog site that someone else wrote.

Yes, I found that. It looks like at best the blogger was paraphrasing Hawking. What is important to note is that a purely Newtonian universe has been shown to be incorrect and Hawking knew that. Even the paraphrase had an "if" in it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Missing #3 Mongollian Horse...
There are 500 years of historical records and modern blood/ DNA tests yet exactly what is happening in terms of evolution is not clear. Or even if Evolution is happening.
Perhaps descended from Spanish domestic horses but within 500 years Mustangs are very similar to Sorraia, although I pointed out, Sorraia were not imported as "pure"
(1) The original horses were most likely well bred domestics. The horses that are most physiologically, and likely genetically, similar to Sorraia will form a separate herd within the refuges, so I read.
I had hands on one of these mustangs as a relative is a professional trainer. The mustang is a horse of a different color. I also rode a Peruvian Paso during that visit (nothing primitive about a Paso!)
That is Devolving..
(2)Many people contend that the Sorraia Mustang is the American Horse thought to be extinct.(3) That means "Spanish horse descended from Spanish Horse is not necessarily correct. May have crossed from Mongollia
Matrilineal DNA...All the DNA studies are mitochondrial DNA.
1) If the horse is devolving shedding centuries of selected breeding then where in the DNA would those centuries be recorded? Could we tell from Mustang DNA that his ancestors were Andulasian or Lusitano?
2) If the horse is devolving, shedding centuries of selected breeding, then it seems to me that the Blue Print for the Species is Mitochondrial DNA.
Mitochondrial DNA is the blue print for the Species. Yes or No
So, when it is unclear what happened between here and there, a mere 500 yrs, with that horse, I suspect that telling what happened between here and way way back there, thousands, millions and more, is not just unclear but suspect, very suspect.

According to this website:

"The American Sorraia Mustang is a rare type of Spanish Mustang, which is on the critical list of rare breeds. American Sorraia Mustangs contain a special genetic history, they are proven decedents of the endangered Sorraia Horse of Portugal, showing genetic markers and physical characteristics of there portuguese ancestors. The Sorraia gained a reputation as the horse of Columbus and Hernando Cortes, but originally it was an unwanted horse. When Columbus bought horses for his voyage he purchased Spanish bloodstock and was expecting a shipload of only those horses but instead a portion of the shipload was sorraia horses. The Sorraia horse was are primitive wild horses originating in the basin of the Rio Sorraia in portugal, which was not far from the Atlantic ocean. During Columbus's time Sorraia horses were much more plentiful and had the dubious description of being wild, just as the the American Sorraia Mustangs were regarded as centuries later. So sorraias ended up in the New World because of the con that was played on Columbus. When Columbus landed on the shores of the New World he discovered that the Sorraia horses could better handle the climate of the new world then the other horses. The horses were able to adabt so well that they thrived in the New World. The reason the breed was able to adabt so well is the Mediterranean climate that they had originated from. That climate is similar to the climate of Mexico or California and the breed is also able to endure any number of extreme climate changes like desserts and mountains of peru to the North American high desserts and prairies. These tough Sorraias horses of the 1400s and the 1500s are direct ancestors of the American Sorraia Mustangs of the twenty-frist century. These two horse breeds have survived for hundreds of years starting the population in Mexico and going all the way to colonial California."

This would mean that many of the first horses brought by Europeans to the Americas were the once plentiful sorraia horses; horses that five hundred years ago were plentiful and abundant in the Iberian peninsula but which are no critically endangered.

As such efforts to preserve the breed have been done, importing sorraia horses to North America and selectively breeding with mustangs which have similar genetic markers to the ancestral sorraia.

"Two Sorraia stallions were imported to the United States in the early 21st century. In 2006, another Sorraia stallion was imported to Canada where a Sorraia Mustang Preserve has been established on Manitoulin Island in Ontario.[24] Unrelated to existing preservation efforts which work in conjunction with the Sorraia Mustang Studbook,[4] another project by a consortium of breeders in the United States is attempting to establish a separate network and studbook. These breeders have gathered Spanish Mustangs that through mtDNA testing show a genetic relationship with the Sorraia and are breeding them according to both genotype and phenotype in an attempt to help preserve what they are calling the "American Sorraia Mustang".[25]" - Sorraia - Wikipedia

As far as relationships go with wild horse populations, including the tarpan or Eurasian wild horse is concerned,

"The relationship between the Sorraia and other breeds remains largely undetermined, as is its relationship to the wild horse subspecies, the Tarpan and the Przewalski's Horse. The Sorraia originally developed in the southern part of the Iberian peninsula.[8] d'Andrade hypothesized that the Sorraia would be the ancestor of the Southern Iberian breeds.[9] Morphologically, scientists place the Sorraia as closely related to the Gallego and the Asturcon,[10] but genetic studies using mitochondrial DNA show that the Sorraia forms a cluster that is largely separated from most Iberian breeds.[11][12][13][14] Some evidence links this cluster with Konik and domestic Mongolian horses.[12] At the same time, one of the maternal lineages is shared with the Lusitano.[15] Genetic evidence[11] has not supported a hypothesis that the Sorraia is related to the Barb horse, an African breed introduced to Iberia by the Moors.[16]

Multiple authors have suggested that the Sorraia might be a descendant of the Tarpan based on shared morphological features, principally the typical color of its coat.[2][3][17] Other authors simply state that the Sorraia has "evident primitive characteristics", although they do not refer to a specific ancestor.[5] However, there have been no genetic studies comparing the Sorraia with the Tarpan, and similarity of external morphology is an unreliable measure of relatedness.[11]

Genetic studies to date have been inconclusive about the closest relative of the Sorraia. On one hand, studies using mitochondrial DNA showed a relationship with the Przewalski's Horse,[12][13][14] in that Przewalski's Horse has a unique haplotype (A2) not found in domestic horses, which differs by just one single nucleotide from one of the major Sorraia haplotypes (JSO41, later A7). In comparison, genetic distances within the domestic horse are as large as 11 nucleotide differences.[12][13][14] However, this relationship with the Przewalski's Horse was contradicted in another study using microsatellite data that showed that the genetic distance between the Prewalski's Horse and the Sorraia was the largest.[18] Such conflicting results can arise when a population passes through a genetic bottleneck, and evidence suggests that the Sorraia, among other rare breeds, has recently passed through a bottleneck,[12] effectively obscuring the position of this breed in the family tree of the domestic horse. Thus, the morphological, physiological, and cultural characteristics of the Sorraia are the subject of continued study to better understand the relationship between various Iberian horse breeds and wild horse subspecies." - Sorraia - Wikipedia

I don't know why you mention things like "devolving". There's no such thing as "devolving".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[QvQ]

According to this website:

"The American Sorraia Mustang is a rare type of Spanish Mustang, which is on the critical list of rare breeds. American Sorraia Mustangs contain a special genetic history, they are proven decedents of the endangered Sorraia Horse of Portugal, showing genetic markers and physical characteristics of there portuguese ancestors. The Sorraia gained a reputation as the horse of Columbus and Hernando Cortes, but originally it was an unwanted horse. When Columbus bought horses for his voyage he purchased Spanish bloodstock and was expecting a shipload of only those horses but instead a portion of the shipload was sorraia horses. The Sorraia horse was are primitive wild horses originating in the basin of the Rio Sorraia in portugal, which was not far from the Atlantic ocean. During Columbus's time Sorraia horses were much more plentiful and had the dubious description of being wild, just as the the American Sorraia Mustangs were regarded as centuries later. So sorraias ended up in the New World because of the con that was played on Columbus. When Columbus landed on the shores of the New World he discovered that the Sorraia horses could better handle the climate of the new world then the other horses. The horses were able to adabt so well that they thrived in the New World. The reason the breed was able to adabt so well is the Mediterranean climate that they had originated from. That climate is similar to the climate of Mexico or California and the breed is also able to endure any number of extreme climate changes like desserts and mountains of peru to the North American high desserts and prairies. These tough Sorraias horses of the 1400s and the 1500s are direct ancestors of the American Sorraia Mustangs of the twenty-frist century. These two horse breeds have survived for hundreds of years starting the population in Mexico and going all the way to colonial California."

This would mean that many of the first horses brought by Europeans to the Americas were the once plentiful sorraia horses; horses that five hundred years ago were plentiful and abundant in the Iberian peninsula but which are no critically endangered.

As such efforts to preserve the breed have been done, importing sorraia horses to North America and selectively breeding with mustangs which have similar genetic markers to the ancestral sorraia.

"Two Sorraia stallions were imported to the United States in the early 21st century. In 2006, another Sorraia stallion was imported to Canada where a Sorraia Mustang Preserve has been established on Manitoulin Island in Ontario.[24] Unrelated to existing preservation efforts which work in conjunction with the Sorraia Mustang Studbook,[4] another project by a consortium of breeders in the United States is attempting to establish a separate network and studbook. These breeders have gathered Spanish Mustangs that through mtDNA testing show a genetic relationship with the Sorraia and are breeding them according to both genotype and phenotype in an attempt to help preserve what they are calling the "American Sorraia Mustang".[25]" - Sorraia - Wikipedia

As far as relationships go with wild horse populations, including the tarpan or Eurasian wild horse is concerned,

"The relationship between the Sorraia and other breeds remains largely undetermined, as is its relationship to the wild horse subspecies, the Tarpan and the Przewalski's Horse. The Sorraia originally developed in the southern part of the Iberian peninsula.[8] d'Andrade hypothesized that the Sorraia would be the ancestor of the Southern Iberian breeds.[9] Morphologically, scientists place the Sorraia as closely related to the Gallego and the Asturcon,[10] but genetic studies using mitochondrial DNA show that the Sorraia forms a cluster that is largely separated from most Iberian breeds.[11][12][13][14] Some evidence links this cluster with Konik and domestic Mongolian horses.[12] At the same time, one of the maternal lineages is shared with the Lusitano.[15] Genetic evidence[11] has not supported a hypothesis that the Sorraia is related to the Barb horse, an African breed introduced to Iberia by the Moors.[16]

Multiple authors have suggested that the Sorraia might be a descendant of the Tarpan based on shared morphological features, principally the typical color of its coat.[2][3][17] Other authors simply state that the Sorraia has "evident primitive characteristics", although they do not refer to a specific ancestor.[5] However, there have been no genetic studies comparing the Sorraia with the Tarpan, and similarity of external morphology is an unreliable measure of relatedness.[11]

Genetic studies to date have been inconclusive about the closest relative of the Sorraia. On one hand, studies using mitochondrial DNA showed a relationship with the Przewalski's Horse,[12][13][14] in that Przewalski's Horse has a unique haplotype (A2) not found in domestic horses, which differs by just one single nucleotide from one of the major Sorraia haplotypes (JSO41, later A7). In comparison, genetic distances within the domestic horse are as large as 11 nucleotide differences.[12][13][14] However, this relationship with the Przewalski's Horse was contradicted in another study using microsatellite data that showed that the genetic distance between the Prewalski's Horse and the Sorraia was the largest.[18] Such conflicting results can arise when a population passes through a genetic bottleneck, and evidence suggests that the Sorraia, among other rare breeds, has recently passed through a bottleneck,[12] effectively obscuring the position of this breed in the family tree of the domestic horse. Thus, the morphological, physiological, and cultural characteristics of the Sorraia are the subject of continued study to better understand the relationship between various Iberian horse breeds and wild horse subspecies." - Sorraia - Wikipedia

I don't know why you mention things like "devolving". There's no such thing as "devolving".

-CryptoLutheran

From a Separate Web Site
" Columbus' second voyage to the New World, when he transported the first horses to Santo Domingo - now the Dominican Republic. These animals were a mix of the Berber, the Jennet and the Andalusian."
All domestic horses...and another web site states that the Sorraia were recorded as extinct by 1400
Perhaps the writer of your article is mistaking the Jennet for Sorraia.
Please post a manifest of Columbus cargo or other proof of "pure Sorraia"
Both Columbus and Cortez had spotted horses. The Spanish Jennet exhibit the color pattern, pinto or paint: "Shipping manifests to the New World indicate that some spotted horses were in the group."
The last recorded instance I could find for Soraia before 1920 is a record of the horse being hunted in remote regions for meat and hides circ 1400
Jennets were the common small riding horse of arab descent during that era.
"The castle of Venafro in the Italian region of Molise (which was under Spanish rule in the 1500s) has numerous frescos portraying the ginecti (jennets), which seem to closely resemble a modern-day Criollo horse or a Peruvian Paso"
If mitochondrial DNA is a Blue Print for Species, whereby the "evolved" specimen is always in the pattern of that mitochondrial blue print, then "evolution" is an illusion, merely adding or removing clothes according to the weather, identifiable by the presence and manifestation of Mitochondrial DNA.
(I am wary of any information from sites that are promoting a product. I prefer scholarly or university sites)

 

[QvQ]

Removed Double Post

 

[QvQ]

Removed Double Post

 

[QvQ]

Yes, I found that. It looks like at best the blogger was paraphrasing Hawking. What is important to note is that a purely Newtonian universe has been shown to be incorrect and Hawking knew that. Even the paraphrase had an "if" in it.

It is from a series on public television entitled "Genius." If anyone wishes to know what Hawking said, go watch the program. It was Hawking's series and he discussed experiments conducted on the subject of Free Will. I only read a synopsis so watch and form your own opinion.
There is also this quote from another article:
"the laws of science determine the evolution of the universe,” he said.

 

[loveofourlord]

So you doubt the power of the spiral?

(Been watching too much anime this quarantine)

hehe I thought you were talking about the OTHER spiral series.....the really insanly creepy one hehe :>

Uzumaki

 

[2PhiloVoid]

More people believe in evolution as time goes by. Is it because they have studied it and understand it, or is it because so many others believe it so they might as well too?

I take evolution to be an accurate scientific concept because I've studied it and not simply because a number of other people have told me they believe in it. Of course, something similar could be said for my view of Christianity; I believe it because I've studied it and not merely because I've heard more than a few testimonies about its favorable qualities from other people.

 

[returntosender]

Super Natural is a hard thing to come to grips with.
That's what God and his word is all about. I can't think of anything that is supernatural in evolution.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Super Natural is a hard thing to come to grips with.
That's what God and his word is all about. I can't think of anything that is supernatural in evolution.

Evolution, if it were true, would be 'natural' but still within the overall framework of the supernatural.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I take evolution to be an accurate scientific concept because I've studied it and not simply because a number of other people have told me they believe in it. Of course, something similar could be said for my view of Christianity; I believe it because I've studied it and not merely because I've heard more than a few testimonies about its favorable qualities from other people.

Triangulation, as a means of extending control (acquiring a target), has been replaced by GPS and laser measuring.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Creation is a big part of my belief system

Mine too. It is boldly stated throughout Scripture. In the NT we're told that "everything that was made was made through Him (Jesus)". Also that "He sustains all things through his powerful word." How does any believer get around that?

 

[Speedwell]

Mine too. It is boldly stated throughout Scripture. In the NT we're told that "everything that was made was made through Him (Jesus)". Also that "He sustains all things through his powerful word." How does any believer get around that?

Nothing for a believer to "get around." Neither of those two verses poses the least difficulty for having evolution be part of the process.

 

[pitabread]

Super Natural is a hard thing to come to grips with.
That's what God and his word is all about. I can't think of anything that is supernatural in evolution.

If God invented the process of evolution would that not qualify?