Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[keras]

What I am saying that you shouldn't be so dogmatic on is a scientific explanation in very specific terms as how the heat will scorch men.... and in your theory (if I understand you correctly) you expand to mean the destruction of the world as well.

No the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is not the destruction of the world. It is the devastation and depopulation of the Middle East region and the loss or our modern infrastructure. Most people will survive and in order to maintain law and order, a One World Govt will be formed. But all who have 'called out to the Lord', Acts of the Apostles 2:21, will be saved and will go to live in all of the Holy Land. Plenty of scriptures confirm this scenario.
God will use the sun to fulfil His judgement onto these attackers of Israel, so that secular people can continue in their ungodly ways, but we who understand the prophesies will know it was God who instigated this CME.

The word "heaven" is not in Revelation 7. But the description of being before the throne of God is tantamount (the same as) saying heaven.

This is just your guess. Heaven is where God is and as I pointed out He brought heaven down to where Ezekiel was.

The first three verses of Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel are "before" any of the judgements begin on the earth. The 144,000 will be here on earth during the great tribulation. The other group is seen in heaven, having come out of the great tribulation.... meaning they were in it, for a while.

The great tribulation [mega thiplis] of Revelation 7:14 cannot be referring to the G.T. of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, because the Seventh Seal has not been opened yet. It refers to the previous event, namely the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

Revelation 21:4 is a different set of circumstances.....and is after the Great White throne judgment in Revelation 20.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Exactly. There is just one time that God will 'wipe away their tears....' and that is after the GWT Judgement. Therefore we know Revelation 7:15-17 describes that time. It is God's promise to them of eternal life.

 

[Bible2+]

Postvieww said in post 4858:

There is no rapture in scripture where the church goes up to where God dwells.

That's right, in that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

 

[Bible2+]

Short Timer said in post 4860:

My bible say all those sealed are Jews, do you know the two tribes left out and not sealed and why,

Note that the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Short Timer said in post 4860:

According to scripture, what would happen "IF" Jesus didn't return???

"NO FLESH" surviving??????

Because Jesus will return, some in the church will survive the tribulation, will still be "alive and remain" to be raptured at the 2nd coming:

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Short Timer said in post 4860:

Flesh and blood can't enter heaven . . .

Are you thinking of the following verse?

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If so, this refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth, in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom, which will be on the present earth. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies without inheriting the kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the 3rd-heaven aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, at one point during the tribulation, the 2 witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the 2 witnesses will ascend up to the 3rd heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the 3rd heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the 3rd heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the 3rd heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the 3rd heaven.

Short Timer said in post 4860:

Which "Woman" is scripture referring to, the "Bride of Christ" (Church) or the "Woman that gave birth to the "man Child", Israel/Jesus?????

Note that in Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus. For Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up physically to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

Short Timer said in post 4860:

Why is the church told to resist the devil and he will flee from you, but he doesn't flee from trib saints???

Why didn't he flee from the righteous church of Smyrna, instead of being allowed to kill its members (Revelation 2:10-11)? Because James 4:7 refers to temptation to sin, like in Matthew 4:1-11, not to physical persecution (2 Timothy 3:12).

Short Timer said in post 4860:

Why is the church told to go to all the world and preach the Gospel, but trib saints told to hide in their Chamber until the indignation is over???

Because of the same idea as "... the night cometh, when no man can work" (John 9:4b).

Regarding Isaiah 26:20-21, it is addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Short Timer said in post 4860:

If Jesus himself was here during the trib, you think the AC could prevail over "HIM" personally???

If it was his 1st coming, yes, for Jesus was crucified.

And people in the church can be partakers of his sufferings (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Short Timer said in post 4860:

It means that the same spirit that occupied the body of Jesus, and made him who he was,

is the same spirit that occupies the "Body of the church" and makes them an "Image of Jesus", (conform to his image)

Note that people in the church can be conformed to his death (Philippians 3:10-11).

*******

Short Timer said in post 4877:

The Rapture is over in the twinkling of an eye, nobody sees Jesus except the ones rapture.

Note that the only thing that will happen in the twinkling of an eye at Jesus' 2nd coming will be the resurrection (if dead) and the changing (if alive) of obedient believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Other aspects of the 2nd coming will occur before and after that. The first thing visible to occur at the 2nd coming will be the light from the sun and moon temporarily being blocked from reaching the surface of the earth (Matthew 24:29). And there will be a meteorite shower, falling "stars" (Matthew 24:29). Then the sign of Jesus (possibly the Cross) will appear in the sky and the world will mourn when it realizes that the true Jesus is coming back (Matthew 24:30). Then the world will see Jesus in the clouds of the sky (Matthew 24:30). And the people of the world will wail (Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus is coming in wrath (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

But before the wrath of the 2nd coming begins (Revelation 19:15-21), all the souls of the dead in Christ (of all times), who will all come back with him from the 3rd heaven at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), will descend to the earth where their graves are and their bodies will be physically resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured (caught up together, gathered together) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 4864:

As I have always said, if you wish to be left behind, or if you just can't see a pretrib rapture, so will not be expecting and watching, you will be left behind.

Regarding "watching", note that in the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Christ's 2nd coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return, for if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before he returns (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

*******

iamlamad said in post 4869:

I will further add that this catching up and His COMING TO catch us up will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord and HIS wrath.

Note that the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2+]

keras quoted Lloyd in post 4868:

Lindsey told the large group that he “hit Gundry….with the question of who will populate the Kingdom” . . .

Those who will populate the millennial aspect of the kingdom, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, will be the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). The millennium could also be populated by the elect Jews who will get saved at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). For they could enter the millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of the saved into immortal physical bodies at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) could be only for those who had become saved before the 2nd coming.

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keras said in post 4872:

What really does matter is that millions have believed the lie of a rapture removal to heaven. A lie that has been promoted by the father of lies and believed by all those Christians who prefer to leave the earth rather than face trials and testing.

It is possible that Satan invented the false hope of a pre-tribulation rapture, insofar as he is the father of lies (John 8:44b). But this doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that those who hold to the pre-trib view are Satanic. For they hate Satan, and love God and his Word. They may have just fallen under one of his deceptions out of fear of the tribulation, or because people they respect highly have wrongly assured them that pre-trib is the only possibility.

If Satan did invent the pre-trib false hope, he may have done so in order to weaken the church, to keep it from having any "root in itself" (Matthew 13:21), to keep it from having to face its fear of the tribulation and overcome that fear (cf. Revelation 2:10-11, Hebrews 2:15).

Satan could also use the pre-trib view as a great weapon with which to batter the faith of Christians during the suffering of the tribulation. He could say something like:

"O, you poor souls! So utterly deceived by that liar YHWH! How cruel of him to promise you a pre-trib rapture and get all your hopes up, only to pull the rug out from under you at the last moment! How he is laughing at you now in your suffering! Doesn't he even admit it in Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23? Yes, of course he does, just to spite you. How he hates you, my friends, how he hates all of humanity. All he wants to do is cause suffering, all this tribulation suffering. And this is only a prelude to the eternal torture which he will delight in forever. What a foul and cruel tyrant he is! But I will tell you a secret. He is not all-powerful as he pretends to be. Wasn't he fearful when man built the Tower of Babel? Of course he was, he even admitted it himself in Genesis 11:6, for he knows that when mankind becomes united, nothing can be restrained from it; it can do anything. Even storm heaven and overthrow him. And so he destroyed the unity of mankind, out of fear for himself and his tyranny".

Satan could go on: "But look here, my friends. I do not hate you. I am no tyrant. Who is feeding you? Who is feeding your starving, crying little ones, while YHWH doesn't lift a finger to help you or them? I AM feeding you. I AM helping you. I AM your God, your true Lord, your beneficent Master. Fall down and worship me, Lucifer, and my Son, and His image, receive His mark on your hand or forehead, and together we will rise as one to fight against YHWH and destroy his foul tyranny once and for all. YHWH is coming soon to try to stop this unity which we are forging, to try to stop the blessed illumination and power which I Lucifer am bringing to all of mankind. But we will win, for nothing can be restrained from us; we can do anything, so long we do not allow him to break our union".

Satan could continue: "So, come, my friends, it is time for you to formally renounce YHWH, to curse him to his face and before all the world, that you might completely break free from his hypnotic spell, which has blinded you so long to his utter cruelty and hatred for mankind. And it is time, my friends, for you to formally announce your complete devotion to me, Lucifer, and to my Son, and to worship us in Spirit and in Truth, that you might receive the full Illumination of My Spirit within you, and feel my seething Power within your soul. You will become new creatures in Me, new creatures of Light, and Love for all mankind".

And with speeches such as this, Satan could utterly wear down the defenses of some already-completely exhausted saints, whose strength of faith could not survive the long, horrible suffering of the tribulation, not only the suffering of themselves, but of their innocent little ones as well. They will be defeated by their doubts: "How could a good God let this happen to me? How could a good God let my innocent little baby starve to an agonizingly painful death while he sits up and heaven and does nothing? No rapture, no manna, nothing. Not even a word of encouragement. Utter silence. Is he dead? Is he evil? What could possibly be the point of all this suffering? I can no longer serve such a 'God' as this. I will serve that God who proves his love for me by helping me, by feeding me, by feeding my precious little ones. You will know them by their fruits. Now I have seen the ultimate fruits of YHWH, and now I have seen the ultimate fruits of Lucifer and His Son. It is plain as day who is truly good and who is truly evil".

And so the love of many will grow cold toward YHWH (Matthew 24:12). They will show that they love their stomachs (Philippians 3:19) and their little ones more than they love God (Matthew 10:37b). They will show that their love of God wasn't based on who he is, their Creator (John 1:3) and Crucified Savior (Acts 20:28) and the Almighty Infinite God compared with whom all of mankind together is an infinitesimal speck of dust, worth less than nothing (Isaiah 40:15-18). No, their love of God was conditional upon what he gave them in this life: wealth, happiness, health, food, clothing, and the promise of a pre-trib rapture. Take all of these things away in the tribulation, and they, unlike Job (Job 1:21-22), will have no more reason to worship God, but only a reason to curse him (Job 2:9-10, Isaiah 8:21-22).

This will be the ultimate fruit of the prosperity gospel, the Americanized gospel of wealth and plenty and a pre-trib rapture: apostasy in the tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1), a complete ignorance of such ideas as 1 Peter 4:12-13, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and 1 Timothy 6:9-12, a complete denial of such ideas as Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:12, and Revelation 14:12-13.

--

The lies which were presented above as being what Satan could say during the tribulation should be answered, in case any one of them might be niggling away at some believer's faith. They were presented to serve as vaccines, as it were, so that if a believer is in fact confronted with those lies during the future tribulation, his spiritual immune system, his faith, will have already been prepared to overcome them (Ephesians 6:16).

First, it was said to believers who were in the tribulation that God was cruel to promise them a pre-trib rapture and get all their hopes up, only to pull the rug out from under them at the last moment. The truth is that God has never promised believers a pre-trib rapture. No scripture ever refers to any such thing.

Second, it was said that God was laughing at the suffering of the believers in the tribulation, and Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23 were referenced. The truth is that God doesn't ever laugh at the suffering of believers (Psalms 116:15); Proverbs 1:26 is addressing those who have rejected God (Proverbs 1:24-33). And Job 9:23 is just the wrong opinion of Job during his great suffering; not everything he says is correct. For example, he says in Job 19:11 that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him, when it wasn't God's wrath at all, but Satan's wrath. During the coming tribulation, Satan is going to have his cake and eat it too. Because of the false pre-trib idea that all of the tribulation is God's wrath, instead of it mostly being Satan's wrath, Satan will get to cause a whole world of suffering during the tribulation and then blame it all on God and say that God did all of it, and people will believe Satan. He will get to present himself as the good guy, and God as the evil tyrant, when it will be Satan doing the evil, just as it was Satan doing the evil against Job.

Third, it was said that God hates all of humanity. The truth is that God hates only some of humanity, the vessels of wrath, those predestined by him to damnation before they were born (Romans 9:13-22). Now this will be where the rubber meets the road for many: can they accept that the Infinite Creator has the right to do with his infinitesimal creatures (Isaiah 40:15,17) whatsoever he wants (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 4:11), or will they insist that God is unjust, evil, to predestine people to damnation before they have done anything at all? To accept the former shows humility before God; to insist on the latter shows human, nay, Satanic, pride, for it attempts to set God's creatures above God himself: it is saying that infinitesimal humans are more important than the Infinite God and his will and pleasure. The truth of double predestination is the ultimate test of our humility before God. No doubt Satan will employ that truth during the tribulation as his ultimate weapon to try to turn people away from God.

Fourth, it was said that all God wants to do is cause suffering, all the tribulation suffering. The truth is that God loves to care for his creatures (Psalms 104:10-18). He only brings suffering (chastening) to those he loves when they fall into sin and need to repent (Revelation 3:19). And the suffering which comes upon those who are already repentant (Acts 14:22, John 16:33, Philippians 1:29) can still work good things in them, such as patience (Romans 5:3) and a greater hope in the eternal glory to come (2 Corinthians 4:17). Suffering is an innate part of the fallen creation; it is universal (Romans 8:22). It is not like God himself is actively behind every instance of suffering. There can simply be natural disasters. And Satan and evil men cause tremendous amounts of suffering (e.g. Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7,10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4).

Fifth, it was said that God will delight in the eternal torture of the unsaved. The truth is that God will not take any pleasure in the unsaved's suffering per se (cf. Ezekiel 33:11). The only pleasure he will take in connection with people being unsaved is that they will provide him an opportunity to show his wrath and to make his power known (Romans 9:22) forever (Revelation 14:10-11). This again will be where the rubber meets the road for many: will they accept that the Holy God has the right to eternally torture the unsaved as punishment for their free-willed sins (Romans 6:23, Revelation 21:8, James 1:13-15), or will they claim that they know better than God himself what is just and what is not just? If they accept the former, they will show humility before God, while if they claim the latter they will be placing themselves above God, making themselves the judge of God, and so will show the ultimate extent of their Satanic pride.

Sixth, it was said that God is not all-powerful as he pretends to be, and that he was fearful when man built the Tower of Babel; Genesis 11:6 was referenced. The truth is that God is all-powerful (Jeremiah 32:17,27), and he wasn't fearful for himself at all at the Tower of Babel; all of mankind together is an infinitesimal speck, less than nothing compared with the Infinite, Almighty God (Isaiah 40:15,17). He was fearful only for what a fallen, united mankind, in its overweening pride, would end up doing to itself and the planet, or even to other planets, such as creating some huge scientific device which would end up blowing the earth to smithereens, or colonizing Mars and some moons of Jupiter only to utterly defile them with sin and pollution.

Seventh, it was said that Satan doesn't hate mankind, and that his feeding of mankind during the tribulation will prove his love for mankind. The truth is that Satan has wanted to murder all of mankind from the beginning (John 8:44); that is why he deceived Eve into committing sin (Genesis 3:4), so that all of mankind would become mortal and die (Romans 5:12). Now his hope is to drag as much of mankind as possible with him into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,15). He will do anything for men in the tribulation, give men anything they want in the tribulation, so long as he gets to see them ultimately tortured forever just as he will be (Matthew 25:41,46). So when he offers men bread and water and clothing and "love" during the tribulation, this will be a ruse, nothing but bait to get men onto the hook of rebellion against God, to get them to ultimately suffer eternal damnation (Revelation 14:10-11).

Eighth, and last, it was said that a good God would not let an innocent little baby starve to an agonizingly painful death during the tribulation while he sits up in heaven and does nothing. The truth is that this life, even if we live to be 100 years old, is nothing but a nanosecond compared with eternity. And death is better than life in this world for those who are saved, and for little babies who have been elected by God to salvation, for their death will take them into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8); their death will be no loss, but gain for them, far better than any life in this fallen world (Philippians 1:21,23). Only those who wrongly love this world (1 John 2:15) and their life in it (John 12:25) are horrified by death. Satan uses the fear of death to keep people in bondage to himself and to his ways (Hebrews 2:15), to keep their sights on temporal things instead of on that which is eternal (2 Corinthians 4:18).

 

[Bible2+]

n2thelight said in post 4884:

We are living in the generation of the "parable of the fig tree" and that is why Jesus told us to learn it, so that we would not be deceived.

That could be right.

For Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

-

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

 

[Douggg]

Can't be right,John was not raptured

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

"The first voice which I heard..." Who is this "I" in verse one? Of course it's John, the one writing this. Have you ever heard John referred to as "the Church"? Absolutely not. There is no church in heaven; not at this point. However, there will be, for heaven is where ever God is, and at the appointed time He is coming here to earth. Then there will be one church, one gathering place where the called-out ones shall meet.

We use the term "rapture of the church" for ease of conversation and something that has been repeated over and over, that is, by tradition. It is an implied term, since all christians, collectively, are considered the body of Christ, the visible form of Christ here on earth, witnesses of and evidence of the existance of Jesus - who Himself is currently in Heaven, as our high priest and Lord.

While the actual text in 1Thessalonians 4:15-18 regarding the rapture/resurrection does not say church in that particular set of verses, Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians - who Paul did say in his opening verses in 1Thessalonians use the term "church"....

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

So the term rapture of the church is appropriate and not incorrect. And the bride of Christ in Revelation 19:7-9 is the raptured and resurrected church, and who in Revelation 19:14, are part of the armies of heaven, clothed in white linen, the saints in Zechariah 14:5, returning to earth with Jesus.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

There is no church in this verse going anyplace. There is only John being taken to heaven in the spirit, and hearing a voice like a trumpet calling him up. John was taken from 90 A.D. to a time beyond this year, 1994; for we are living in the final generation. The whole purpose for John writing this entire book of Revelation is to warn the people of this generation of the great deception the Antichrist, and his system would bring upon the earth before Jesus Christ's return. We are living in the generation of the "parable of the fig tree" and that is why Jesus told us to learn it, so that we would not be deceived.

It does not say church in the text of Revelation 4, but John. John was called up to heaven, hearing a voice like a trumpet (the resurrection of the dead saints in Christ), and is translated, immediately (the rapture of the living).

It is from being in heaven that John is shown the forthcoming great tribulation.

It is by insight that John's experience represents what the rapture/resurrection will be like....and when, before the great tribulation.

And John's being translated to heaven (as though he was raptured/resurrected) - and is in heaven as he sees and is told of what happens here on earth - is evidence of the church is in heaven during the great tribulation.... and no mention of the church going through the great tribulation in Revelation once Jesus breaks the seals on the book.

Now about the ones you say become Christians

The Elect are still on earth during the trib,no worthy of a group of people to be raptured than these yet they are still here,go figure...

You'll spiritualize things away that don't fit your doctrine......

There will be them who receive Jesus during the great tribulation, after the church is gone. Those are the tribulation saints.

Some will be martyred - which are them in Revelation 7:9, having their white robes, and Revelation 6:9-11, also having their white robes in the text. Others survive the great tribulation, which will include the Jews, Israel, which Jesus's will rescue - not by rapture - but by making the valley which they will escape in Zechariah 14:5.

In Zechariah 14:5 is pictured the elect, in particular the Jews, them who have become Christians during the great tribulation; and separately, the church, the saints returning with Jesus. My comments in red.

5 And ye [the Jews] shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints [the raptured/resurrected church returning with Jesus] with thee.

 

[BABerean2]

It is by insight that John's experience represents what the rapture/resurrection will be like....and when, before the great tribulation.

For someone who has stated on several occasions that you do not have a particular view on the timing of the rapture, it looks like you have now made up your mind.

The argument you are now using is the same one usually used by Dispensationalists...

.

 

[Postvieww]

The phrase to which you refer is figurative language. Who said? It is a guess. If God wanted to gather a people from everywhere, heaven and earth, how else to write it?

Again you are trying to force two events with explanations of each into ONE event. The bible has "gathering" mentioned in different places and by different authors. So the bible itself has then separated. The descriptions are different. It is you trying to make two into one.

Just suppose, that after the pretrib rapture, and after the 7th vial that ends the week, and after the marriage and supper in heaven, and as Jesus descends He sends His angels to gather every last descendant of Jacob back to Israel, INCLUDING all those in heaven and all those on the earth. You understand, He has promised to do this. Now, if one were to write of this gathering, how would they write it? Maybe like this?

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Wrong! Jesus spoke of the same coming Paul spoke of.

This is again only an opinion with no proof. People have been arguing this for ages. If there was proof the arguments would have ceased.

Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52

All this is human reasoning and conjecture: an opinion with no proof. People have been arguing this for ages. If there was proof the arguments would have ceased. People determine theory from EVERY scripture on a subject, not just one.

If “he” sends his angels to gather, does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.

It's a DIFFERENT gathering. Here people are gathered to Israel which is on earth. Fro the pretrib rapture, IF "angels" are used, they will certainly go back to heaven with the church and with Jesus, for He will remain in heaven for the duration of the week.

As I have always said, if you wish to be left behind, or if you just can't see a pretrib rapture, so will not be expecting and watching, you will be left behind. But so what? It is what you are expecting anyway. Just be prepared to lose your head. I may see you as you enter heaven after being martyred.

I, on the other hand, DO see a pretrib rapture. I know the heart of my Father, that He will not leave me here on earth during the time of His wrath. I know He has not set any appointment for me with His wrath. So while you are going thirsty and hungry and no way to buy water or food, I will be enjoying the fruits along the river of life, and will be walking on the gold sidewalks.

Lamad said:
As I have always said, if you wish to be left behind, or if you just can't see a pretrib rapture,

I once thought I saw a pre-trib rapture, but my eyes were opened to what the scripture actually says, not what I thought it said.

so will not be expecting and watching, you will be left behind. But so what? It is what you are expecting anyway. Just be prepared to lose your head. I may see you as you enter heaven after being martyred.

If you see me enter heaven as a martyr you will not be in a resurrected body.

I, on the other hand, DO see a pretrib rapture. I know the heart of my Father, that He will not leave me here on earth during the time of His wrath. I know He has not set any appointment for me with His wrath. So while you are going thirsty and hungry and no way to buy water or food, I will be enjoying the fruits along the river of life, and will be walking on the gold sidewalks.

That river of life of which you speak is in Rev 22:1 which is after Rev 21 where the New Jerusalem is described coming to the new earth. The streets ( really no of need sidewalks ) of gold of which you speak are mentioned in Rev 21:21 which are in the New Jerusalem. You are getting just about 1000 years ahead of yourself.

Now if you or I die before the second coming who knows we might be allowed to peak into the city being prepared , but don’t you think it is a little presumptuous to say we will be running around in there before scripture says we can enter in Rev 21:27?

Maybe in another post we can discuss how the wrath of God is not directed at his people in Rev 16.

The seals and trumpets are not the wrath of God, some of them have already happened. This wrath is only mentioned at the sixth seal , the seventh trumpet and all of the vials. Much of what you call the “wrath of God” is not.

I know you think you see a pre-trib rapture but I’m still looking for you to show just one verse that says that without needing a “private interpretation” to make it so.

 

[Postvieww]

How typical of those who deny a pretrib rapture just overlook the plain reading of a text. It is those preconceived glasses again!

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Readers, I leave it to you: is this great multitude on earth or are the standing before the throne of God in heaven?

Rhetorical question: why do people fight so hard to hold onto a false theory?

Lamad said in # 4874

How typical of those who deny a pretrib rapture just overlook the plain reading of a text. It is those preconceived glasses again!

In your plain reading of this text you left out:

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Yes I know, in your plain reading you make that say “great tribulation” in this case is the “great tribulation” all believers go through.

Readers I leave it to you is this group out of the great tribulation which John so plainly states and is much of the context of the book of Revelation, or is it a raptured church which pretribbers so desperately need it to be.?


Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Readers, I leave it to you: is this great multitude on earth or are the standing before the throne of God in heaven?


They most definitely are who John plainly wrote they are “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”.

They are before the throne of God as plainly stated, but they are not a raptured anybody. There is no plainly stated reason to believe they are like anyone other than those described in Rev 6:9.

Rhetorical question: why do people fight so hard to hold onto a false theory?


I wish you would answer that question!

 

[n2thelight]

Why does one nd the seal of God if not here?
Here's the bottom line,when satan comes to this earth pretending to be Christ. You will either have the seal of God,or YOU will receive the mark, it's that simple.

The tribulation of satan trust and believe you won't escape, not to say people won't die but it's all about deception and you'll are already deceived..

Gods elect won't bow a knee,yet you call them tribulation saints, yes people will come to Christ during this time,but It will because of the elect..

People don't know the truth now, yet you think all of a sudden during the tribulation they will understand His Word.

To get through the tribulation one must have the whole Gospel armour on which by the way wouldn't be needed if there was a rapture.

Think you up against wickedness in dark places now,wait till Satan gets here live and in person, and the sad part, you all will believe him to bbe Christ

 

[Douggg]

For someone who has stated on several occasions that you do not have a particular view on the timing of the rapture, it looks like you have now made up your mind.

The argument you are now using is the same one usually used by Dispensationalists...

.

I hold the anytime rapture view. The rapture could happen anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

The rapture is God's promise to them who are watching, anticipating, to escape the time of trouble that will come up on the whole world. If my understanding in regards to Luke 21:34-36 turns out to be wrong, my anytime rapture view is still intact, because it is impossible to be wrong for the "anytime" rapture view.

Don't be going down the dispensationalist road with me. I don't want to hear your implication in a post to me that I am a dispensationalist after I have told you about a million times that I am not. You can talk about it in response to other posters - but I am not going to tolerate the constant false accusation to me.

 

[Short Timer]

Sheer rubbish, just put forward to promote a false theory. The joke is: it negates the pre-trib rapture theory!
Paul is undeniably talking about the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, which commences after the G.T. Jesus is coming to the earth and His people will be gathered to Him, on earth.
This does not happen until AFFTER the 'man of perdition' is revealed, and the G.T. is over.

Everything in scripture has a explanation of why it occurs and why it occurs at the time it does occur.

but not a one single of you can use the scriptures to explain why a number of church members so small a child could write the number would meet Jesus in the air at the second coming after 99.999999% of all other church members have been killed by the AC.

Not a single one of you can explain why there is a trib, why the devil is turned loose on all flesh, or why some people are accounted worthy to escape while others are not.

Not a single one of you has the "Knowledge" to explain scripture using scripture, but yet you "Profess to be wise",
Know what the bible says about that??

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I've ran into people like ya'll before, and it becoming more frequent everyday,

"YOU" have to be right even if God/scripture have to be wrong, like Belshazzar who believed he could drink from the Holy cups taken from the temple, you think you can pickup the "Holy WORD" of God and teach whatever seemeth right without having been give that authority or called to that ministry,

Aaron's sons tried that too.
Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

God is not the author of "confusion", anyone he calls, he will "Qualify" with the knowledge of scripture to explain the scriptures,

but some people are so "Stiffnecked" even God in the flesh can't prove to them that their interpretation of scripture is wrong, much less another "man" coming along claiming to be indwell by the "Spirit of God", like that "other one" they called Jesus and telling them they were wrong too,

Who does he think he is, "God in the flesh" too????

Satan sends his wolves into the flock to see how many he can deceive/devour with his confusion of scripture, but the blind can only confusion the blind, and they are that way because of a stiffneck in that "Body of sin/carnal mind" that's refusing to "bow Humbly" to God and his "Word".

And "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools",

And don't believe fool will ever be proved against them, so why "Fear God"???

 

[Short Timer]

Lamad said in # 4874

How typical of those who deny a pretrib rapture just overlook the plain reading of a text. It is those preconceived glasses again.

They most definitely are who John plainly wrote they are “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”.

They are before the throne of God as plainly stated, but they are not a raptured anybody. There is no plainly stated reason to believe they are like anyone other than those described in Rev 6:9.

Rhetorical question: why do people fight so hard to hold onto a false theory?


I wish you would answer that question!

Even the world's "BIGGEST FOOLS" know there is a "DIFFERENCE" between this Church period and the trib period,

but you folks can't explain "WHY" there is difference,

or "WHEN" the "Change" between the church period and trib period take place.

I wish you would answer that "BOTH" questions!

 

[BABerean2]

I hold the anytime rapture view. The rapture could happen anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

The rapture is God's promise to them who are watching, anticipating, to escape the time of trouble that will come up on the whole world. If my understanding in regards to Luke 21:34-36 turns out to be wrong, my anytime rapture view is still intact, because it is impossible to be wrong for the "anytime" rapture view.

Don't be going down the dispensationalist road with me. I don't want to hear your implication in a post to me that I am a dispensationalist after I have told you about a million times that I am not. You can talk about it in response to other posters - but I am not going to tolerate the constant false accusation to me.

If you are saying it can be anytime, as long as it is before the Great Tribulation, then your viewpoint would seem to Pretrib.

Is this what you are saying?
.

 

[BABerean2]

Even the world's "BIGGEST FOOLS" know there is a "DIFFERENCE" between this Church period and the trib period,

but you folks can't explain "WHY" there is difference,

or "WHEN" the "Change" between the church period and trib period take place.

I wish you would answer that "BOTH" questions!

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


G3952


παρουσία

parousia

par-oo-see'-ah

From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

.

 

[Douggg]

If you are saying it can be anytime, as long as it is before the Great Tribulation, then your viewpoint would seem to Pretrib.

Is this what you are saying?
.

I hold the anytime rapture view. But because neither the 70th week, nor the great tribulation that comes in the middle of the 70th week has started - if the rapture took place today, it would in fact be pre-trib.

If the rapture does not take place before the persecution coming commencing with the setting up of the AOD in the middle of the 70th, setting off the great tribulation - then pre-trib would be proven wrong as far as it's timing.

But the anytime rapture view would still be intact, and is impossible to be wrong.

Right now, it appears from all indications of the actual bible verses that the rapture will take place before the great tribulation begins in the middle of the 70th week. Those same verses, on the other hand, don't prove a pre-70th rapture is absolutely required. It is a possibility though, for certain.... which the anytime rapture view is good for that possibility as well.

If you don't like the possibility of being wrong about the rapture - then adopt the anytime rapture view. But if you do, then the possibility of a pre-trib and pre-70th week has to be recognized because that is where we are right now, as we speak, that goes along with holding the anytime rapture view.

 

[Short Timer]

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


G3952


παρουσία

parousia

par-oo-see'-ah

From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

.

Ever hear of the word "HARPAZO"???

1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away

Scriptures containing harpazo:
Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take <726 harpazo> it by force <726 harpazo>.

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away <726 harpazo> that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take <726 harpazo> him by force <726 harpazo>, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth <726 harpazo> them, and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:28 And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall <726 harpazo> any man pluck <726 harpazo> them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck <726 harpazo> them out of my Father's hand.
Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away <726 harpazo> Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take <726 harpazo> him by force <726 harpazo> from among them, and to bring him into the castle.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up <726> to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up <726 harpazo> into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up <726 harpazo> together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling <726 harpazo> them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up <726 harpazo> to God, and to his throne.

parousia:
(a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ.

The same people who say "Evil".."Good",

also try to say someone "Leaving"...is their "Coming".

They have "Everything" backwards, and won't admit truth is truth when shown the truth.

Feast:
http://i25.tinypic.com/2e0mp6t.jpg


P.S. why don't you answer the question of "WHY" the difference between the church and trib and "WHEN" the change takes place.

 

[n2thelight]

Everything in scripture has a explanation of why it occurs and why it occurs at the time it does occur.

but not a one single of you can use the scriptures to explain why a number of church members so small a child could write the number would meet Jesus in the air at the second coming after 99.999999% of all other church members have been killed by the AC.

Not a single one of you can explain why there is a trib, why the devil is turned loose on all flesh, or why some people are accounted worthy to escape while others are not.

Not a single one of you has the "Knowledge" to explain scripture using scripture, but yet you "Profess to be wise",
Know what the bible says about that??

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I've ran into people like ya'll before, and it becoming more frequent everyday,

"YOU" have to be right even if God/scripture have to be wrong, like Belshazzar who believed he could drink from the Holy cups taken from the temple, you think you can pickup the "Holy WORD" of God and teach whatever seemeth right without having been give that authority or called to that ministry,

Aaron's sons tried that too.
Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

God is not the author of "confusion", anyone he calls, he will "Qualify" with the knowledge of scripture to explain the scriptures,

but some people are so "Stiffnecked" even God in the flesh can't prove to them that their interpretation of scripture is wrong, much less another "man" coming along claiming to be indwell by the "Spirit of God", like that "other one" they called Jesus and telling them they were wrong too,

Who does he think he is, "God in the flesh" too????

Satan sends his wolves into the flock to see how many he can deceive/devour with his confusion of scripture, but the blind can only confusion the blind, and they are that way because of a stiffneck in that "Body of sin/carnal mind" that's refusing to "bow Humbly" to God and his "Word".

And "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools",

And don't believe fool will ever be proved against them, so why "Fear God"???

Christians have been dying since they became Christians... The tribulation is not about death,it's about deception.satan gains nothing by killing your flesh, he wants your soul to die with his.

The reason for the trib is to try them that dwell on the earth, Rev 3:10
Why some are worthy to escape, because they have the seal of God. What is that seal? Knowledge, knowledge of what? His word.

We all think we know,well, the tribulation will test that knowledge. Starting with satan coming to earth pretending to be Christ .Question you should be asking,is how to know he's the fake,and that comes from knowledge.For their own good many will get that spirit of slumber and believe that lie...

 

[ivebeenshown]

Everything in scripture has a explanation of why it occurs and why it occurs at the time it does occur.

but not a one single of you can use the scriptures to explain why a number of church members so small a child could write the number would meet Jesus in the air at the second coming after 99.999999% of all other church members have been killed by the AC.

Not a single one of you can explain why there is a trib, why the devil is turned loose on all flesh, or why some people are accounted worthy to escape while others are not.

Not a single one of you has the "Knowledge" to explain scripture using scripture, but yet you "Profess to be wise",
Know what the bible says about that??

Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I've ran into people like ya'll before, and it becoming more frequent everyday,

"YOU" have to be right even if God/scripture have to be wrong, like Belshazzar who believed he could drink from the Holy cups taken from the temple, you think you can pickup the "Holy WORD" of God and teach whatever seemeth right without having been give that authority or called to that ministry,

Aaron's sons tried that too.
Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

God is not the author of "confusion", anyone he calls, he will "Qualify" with the knowledge of scripture to explain the scriptures,

but some people are so "Stiffnecked" even God in the flesh can't prove to them that their interpretation of scripture is wrong, much less another "man" coming along claiming to be indwell by the "Spirit of God", like that "other one" they called Jesus and telling them they were wrong too,

Who does he think he is, "God in the flesh" too????

Satan sends his wolves into the flock to see how many he can deceive/devour with his confusion of scripture, but the blind can only confusion the blind, and they are that way because of a stiffneck in that "Body of sin/carnal mind" that's refusing to "bow Humbly" to God and his "Word".

And "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools",

And don't believe fool will ever be proved against them, so why "Fear God"???

Are you proposing that you have been given some ministry of interpretation by God?