• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bro.T

Bible Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 17, 2008
2,795
306
U.S.
✟321,247.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
No one here has denied a new heaven and a new earth that I know of. Many deny we go to heaven at Paul's rapture.


Twisted up if you want, but theres know Rapture, and only one time the saints will meet the Lord in the clouds in the air, and thats the first Resurrection. Notice I said saints, and not just everyone. Also notice I said first Resurrection, meaning theres a second Resurrection. People don't really read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, nor to they understand the little that they do read.
 
Upvote 0

Riberra

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2014
5,098
594
✟97,664.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Comforter/HG won't be needing to protect any Church member who is accounted worthy to escape, they will be sitting beside of Jesus in heaven who is sitting beside of God
I think that you have a very high opinion of yourself (pretentious and delusional) if you believe that one day you will be sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven.That place is reserved only to Jesus .Think about it !

while God make the earth Jesus footstool.
Where do you see in the text that God will -also- make the earth the footstool of those "worthy to escape"?

You seem to think that the Church is Equal to Jesus because it symbolically represent the body of Christ on Earth.

According to scripture, what would happen "IF" Jesus didn't return???

"NO FLESH" surviving??????
In KJV it said
And except those days should be shortened,...there should no flesh be SAVED ...meaning that everyone would have taken the mark and be LOST/UNSAVED exept the elects ... Knowing that if the reign of the AC is not shortened there will be no elect left alive on the Earth to be gathered at His Coming......

Matthew 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be SAVED: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
......

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
15,279
2,612
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟357,321.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, but you are adding words to Paul for he never said that.
If you wish to stay behind while the rest of the Bride of Christ goes to the mansions prepared for us, I am quite sure God will give you your wish. As for me, I want to see my mansion.
I just put in the place where Jesus will be when He Returns: Jerusalem.
Your pretentious notion of living in mansions in heaven, is a total fabrication. And as for being happy to see fellow Christians stuck on earth, as you think, it's you and all who believe in a rapture removal that will be shocked and terrified on the Day the Lord takes action. Isaiah 42:13-14 THEN: Those who are deaf [to the truth] and those who are blind [couldn't see God's plan] will hear and see at last. Isaiah 42:18
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
15,279
2,612
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟357,321.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The Occult Roots Of The Rapture Cult -
When pop apologists glibly claim the pre-tribulation rapture was taught down through the ages, they make a complete mockery of mountains of historical data, which is the turf of the scholars. The historic British denominational struggles are directly related to our probe of doctrinal origins, but few of today’s modern prognosticators of pre-trib have even the vaguest idea of what type of Christian theology was taught in the 12th century, the 15th century, or any century for that matter.

Indeed, most American Christians haven’t a clue concerning the substance of the Gospel in America, even 100 years ago. They simply listen to the liars who have the flashiest presentation, and the substantive, Scriptural truth is lost in the race to entertain. This provides a fertile breeding ground for those who seek to serve two masters – one being the modern preacher’s commitment to Christ, and a second “master” associated with the political and economic reality of survival in the degraded culture in which he lives.

Returning to the historical narrative, the lightning rod of controversy usually centers around one John Nelson Darby. Indeed, at one point the doctrine was even called Darbyism. Substantial research has been conducted, with the undisputed facts indicating that American Protestant churches received the doctrine largely through a series of Darby’s high profile speaking tours. Although there is a considerable body of data showing a link between two dubious British groups, which undoubtedly contributed to Darby’s development of the doctrine, such research, while interesting, sidesteps the central issue.

That Darby popularized the doctrine is widely accepted, as a substantive paper trail exists. One Margaret Macdonald, an un-credentialed teen living in an era when females were significantly marginalized, did indeed utter a very rudimentary version of the “Rapture” while in a trance-like state, before Darby “discovered” the Rapture. Another ministry figure, Edward Irving (who was of some disrepute), had proven contacts with MacDonald, as did Mr. Darby; but eventually, Darby’s respectable background facilitated his dissemination of pre-trib.

In its early incarnations, the doctrine had many theoretical connections based on tenuous applications of Scripture, such as the ridiculous idea the measurements of various passages in the Egyptian pyramids predict the date of the alleged event. To this very day, a few bombastic and unlearned proponents of the doctrine, seeking to distinguish themselves as serious prophecy figures worthy of financial support, still cling to the corrupted concept; however, the more studied of the Rapturists have long since abandoned the link to Pyramidology.

While most Pre-Tribulationists recognize Darby’s crucial role in the popularization of the doctrine, they stubbornly cling to the notion the doctrine is Scriptural and was known from the earliest time, asserting that it was obscured during the medieval period, and virtually lost – only to be re-discovered in the 19th century. In this regard, it is common practice for Rapture promoters to twist the record, and cite historical figures which they assert knew about the Rapture.

The ferocity with which Rapture Cult aficionados illogically defend the notion that the doctrine was taught by a multitude of important figures has always fascinated me, as the refusal to acknowledge fundamental historical fact is a prime characteristic of a person who is indeed delusional – yet the Rapturists widely persevere in a way that betrays the Spirit of the Age is indeed at work in the conflict. It is this facet of the history that I wish to pursue, as I have now concluded the Spirit of Antichrist has been seeking to plant the seeds of the doctrine from the earliest possible time. Thus, subtle traces of the doctrine may indeed be found in early church history, even though it never gained any traction until Darby’s time.

In modern times, the conflict over the Rapture has largely shifted to one which pits the concept of the Pre-Tribulational return of Christ against the Post-Tribulational return of Christ, and this is a classic manifestation of the Devilish system of the Dialectic – the intellectual witchcraft which moves two polarities into an artificially constructed environment, then seeks to facilitate between the two fixed positions to create a synthetic center – thus relocating the entire construct away from a fixed position. This is, of course, seen in the formula associated with the Hegelian Dialectic of Thesis Versus Antithesis Equals Synthesis – whereby the Synthesis becomes a new Thesis – thus creating a climate of constant change.

Recognizing the present Dialogue largely consists over the Pre-Trib Rapture Versus the Post-Trib Rapture, it is obvious the Synthesis will consist of a worldview associated with the Rapture. In this way, like an intellectual virus constantly mutating to accommodate a changing environment, the Rapture Cult is consistently morphing into novel forms to sustain itself. If we think of this leavenous process in a political venue, when Americans are consistently given the “choice” of a globalist Democrat versus a globalist Republican for the office of President, only a fool would refuse to believe the process has not been structured to keep a globalist in the West Wing.

The operative word here is change, and as this process continues, the lack of fidelity to the truth provides the Spirit of Antichrist with fertile ground in which to plant its deadly tares of deception.

Earlier I mentioned how Pre-Tribbers enthusiastically embrace the concept that noted Christian figures down through history believed in, or even propagated the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine. Important theological figures, such as Matthew Henry, John Gill, Joseph Mede, Justin Martyr, and many others are routinely cited. Not one of these individuals ever heard of the Rapture doctrine as we know it today; but unfortunately, in the media circus of Pre-Trib, the vast majority of the prophetic voices consistently cite the work of others, in pathetic examples wherein each layer of hearsay progressively embeds the assertion with cumulative errors.

This trickle down travesty is insidious, for as Pre-Tribbers quote a Rapture Cult proponent they admire, the idealized source is, in turn, quoting another Cult proponent – who may even be quoting yet another individual. Incredibly, the most recent person regurgitating this refuse has almost never read the original citation, so they are not in a position to spot even copying errors – nor are they so inclined.

This fractured and flawed transmission system is amplified by our media-centric social order, so as flashy preachers are treating on the subject before the cameras, under the carnal influence of emotion and an adrenalin drenched intellect, in seeking to keep their audience enthralled they frequently rely on memory in citing names, dates, and even quotations. For instance, Hal Lindsey, who authored the most popular book of its time on the Rapture, once gleefully told an enthusiastic audience of Pre-Tribbers of a verbal clash with a noted Post-Tribulationist, Dr. Robert Gundry, the author of a compelling Post-Trib book, which was in vogue at the time.

In a presentation reminiscent of a political candidate charging up a friendly partisan crowd by telling them just what they want to hear, Lindsey told the large group that he “hit Gundry….with the question of who will populate the Kingdom” – a favored argument from that period. Lindsay then told the excited crowd that Dr. Gundry “had no answer for it.” Obviously, as a learned professor of New Testament at University level, Dr. Gundry has “an answer” for it, but he never got the chance, as the debate Lindsey was recalling never took place at all.

The fact is, during the period when Gundry’s scholarly book was having an impact on Pre-Tribbers, a debate was scheduled as Cult figures wanted to counter Gundry’s rising influence. Erroneously thinking the pop apologist Lindsey was an adequate match for Gundry, the organizers had recruited Lindsey for the spectacle, which Lindsey apparently prepared for. However, at the last minute the professor had a prior commitment which forced the selection of another Post-Tribber to debate Lindsey the liar who, speaking on another occasion in the heat of the moment I just described, boasted of how he bested the prominent Post-Tribber in a debate that never occurred.

The pathetic episode has now been recounted in at least 3 books, but the fragile grasp Hal Lindsey has on the real world hasn’t made a dent in the enthusiasm of those caught in the greatest snare of all time:

“For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” Luke 21:35
REF.--- James Lloyd
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Twisted up if you want, but theres know Rapture, and only one time the saints will meet the Lord in the clouds in the air, and thats the first Resurrection. Notice I said saints, and not just everyone. Also notice I said first Resurrection, meaning theres a second Resurrection. People don't really read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, nor to they understand the little that they do read.

"Theres know Rapture?" There is FOR SURE a catching up written in 1 Thes. 4. It is HOW the saints get into the clouds you mentioned. so OF COURSE there is a rapture or catching up.

And you are right again, for a part of the catching up is the dead in Christ rising and they will be for sure a part of the resurrection of the JUST, which is the first or primary resurrection that will come a thousand years before the resurrection of the UNjust.

I will further add that this catching up and His COMING TO catch us up will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord and HIS wrath. Find the START of His wrath in revelation and you will be very close to the rapture of the church.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
I think that you have a very high opinion of yourself (pretentious and delusional) if you believe that one day you will be sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven.That place is reserved only to Jesus .Think about it !


Where do you see in the text that God will -also- make the earth the footstool of those "worthy to escape"?

You seem to think that the Church is Equal to Jesus because it symbolically represent the body of Christ on Earth.


In KJV it said
And except those days should be shortened,...there should no flesh be SAVED ...meaning that everyone would have taken the mark and be LOST/UNSAVED exept the elects ... Knowing that if the reign of the AC is not shortened there will be no elect left alive on the Earth to be gathered at His Coming......

Matthew 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be SAVED: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
......

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I think that you have a very high opinion of yourself (pretentious and delusional) if you believe that one day you will be sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven.That place is reserved only to Jesus .Think about it !

We are JOINT HEIRS: what He gets we get. Did you not read that we are ALREADY raised up to sit with Him in heavenly places - in authority?

Eph 2
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
The Occult Roots Of The Rapture Cult -
When pop apologists glibly claim the pre-tribulation rapture was taught down through the ages, they make a complete mockery of mountains of historical data, which is the turf of the scholars. The historic British denominational struggles are directly related to our probe of doctrinal origins, but few of today’s modern prognosticators of pre-trib have even the vaguest idea of what type of Christian theology was taught in the 12th century, the 15th century, or any century for that matter.

Indeed, most American Christians haven’t a clue concerning the substance of the Gospel in America, even 100 years ago. They simply listen to the liars who have the flashiest presentation, and the substantive, Scriptural truth is lost in the race to entertain. This provides a fertile breeding ground for those who seek to serve two masters – one being the modern preacher’s commitment to Christ, and a second “master” associated with the political and economic reality of survival in the degraded culture in which he lives.

Returning to the historical narrative, the lightning rod of controversy usually centers around one John Nelson Darby. Indeed, at one point the doctrine was even called Darbyism. Substantial research has been conducted, with the undisputed facts indicating that American Protestant churches received the doctrine largely through a series of Darby’s high profile speaking tours. Although there is a considerable body of data showing a link between two dubious British groups, which undoubtedly contributed to Darby’s development of the doctrine, such research, while interesting, sidesteps the central issue.

That Darby popularized the doctrine is widely accepted, as a substantive paper trail exists. One Margaret Macdonald, an un-credentialed teen living in an era when females were significantly marginalized, did indeed utter a very rudimentary version of the “Rapture” while in a trance-like state, before Darby “discovered” the Rapture. Another ministry figure, Edward Irving (who was of some disrepute), had proven contacts with MacDonald, as did Mr. Darby; but eventually, Darby’s respectable background facilitated his dissemination of pre-trib.

In its early incarnations, the doctrine had many theoretical connections based on tenuous applications of Scripture, such as the ridiculous idea the measurements of various passages in the Egyptian pyramids predict the date of the alleged event. To this very day, a few bombastic and unlearned proponents of the doctrine, seeking to distinguish themselves as serious prophecy figures worthy of financial support, still cling to the corrupted concept; however, the more studied of the Rapturists have long since abandoned the link to Pyramidology.

While most Pre-Tribulationists recognize Darby’s crucial role in the popularization of the doctrine, they stubbornly cling to the notion the doctrine is Scriptural and was known from the earliest time, asserting that it was obscured during the medieval period, and virtually lost – only to be re-discovered in the 19th century. In this regard, it is common practice for Rapture promoters to twist the record, and cite historical figures which they assert knew about the Rapture.

The ferocity with which Rapture Cult aficionados illogically defend the notion that the doctrine was taught by a multitude of important figures has always fascinated me, as the refusal to acknowledge fundamental historical fact is a prime characteristic of a person who is indeed delusional – yet the Rapturists widely persevere in a way that betrays the Spirit of the Age is indeed at work in the conflict. It is this facet of the history that I wish to pursue, as I have now concluded the Spirit of Antichrist has been seeking to plant the seeds of the doctrine from the earliest possible time. Thus, subtle traces of the doctrine may indeed be found in early church history, even though it never gained any traction until Darby’s time.

In modern times, the conflict over the Rapture has largely shifted to one which pits the concept of the Pre-Tribulational return of Christ against the Post-Tribulational return of Christ, and this is a classic manifestation of the Devilish system of the Dialectic – the intellectual witchcraft which moves two polarities into an artificially constructed environment, then seeks to facilitate between the two fixed positions to create a synthetic center – thus relocating the entire construct away from a fixed position. This is, of course, seen in the formula associated with the Hegelian Dialectic of Thesis Versus Antithesis Equals Synthesis – whereby the Synthesis becomes a new Thesis – thus creating a climate of constant change.

Recognizing the present Dialogue largely consists over the Pre-Trib Rapture Versus the Post-Trib Rapture, it is obvious the Synthesis will consist of a worldview associated with the Rapture. In this way, like an intellectual virus constantly mutating to accommodate a changing environment, the Rapture Cult is consistently morphing into novel forms to sustain itself. If we think of this leavenous process in a political venue, when Americans are consistently given the “choice” of a globalist Democrat versus a globalist Republican for the office of President, only a fool would refuse to believe the process has not been structured to keep a globalist in the West Wing.

The operative word here is change, and as this process continues, the lack of fidelity to the truth provides the Spirit of Antichrist with fertile ground in which to plant its deadly tares of deception.

Earlier I mentioned how Pre-Tribbers enthusiastically embrace the concept that noted Christian figures down through history believed in, or even propagated the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine. Important theological figures, such as Matthew Henry, John Gill, Joseph Mede, Justin Martyr, and many others are routinely cited. Not one of these individuals ever heard of the Rapture doctrine as we know it today; but unfortunately, in the media circus of Pre-Trib, the vast majority of the prophetic voices consistently cite the work of others, in pathetic examples wherein each layer of hearsay progressively embeds the assertion with cumulative errors.

This trickle down travesty is insidious, for as Pre-Tribbers quote a Rapture Cult proponent they admire, the idealized source is, in turn, quoting another Cult proponent – who may even be quoting yet another individual. Incredibly, the most recent person regurgitating this refuse has almost never read the original citation, so they are not in a position to spot even copying errors – nor are they so inclined.

This fractured and flawed transmission system is amplified by our media-centric social order, so as flashy preachers are treating on the subject before the cameras, under the carnal influence of emotion and an adrenalin drenched intellect, in seeking to keep their audience enthralled they frequently rely on memory in citing names, dates, and even quotations. For instance, Hal Lindsey, who authored the most popular book of its time on the Rapture, once gleefully told an enthusiastic audience of Pre-Tribbers of a verbal clash with a noted Post-Tribulationist, Dr. Robert Gundry, the author of a compelling Post-Trib book, which was in vogue at the time.

In a presentation reminiscent of a political candidate charging up a friendly partisan crowd by telling them just what they want to hear, Lindsey told the large group that he “hit Gundry….with the question of who will populate the Kingdom” – a favored argument from that period. Lindsay then told the excited crowd that Dr. Gundry “had no answer for it.” Obviously, as a learned professor of New Testament at University level, Dr. Gundry has “an answer” for it, but he never got the chance, as the debate Lindsey was recalling never took place at all.

The fact is, during the period when Gundry’s scholarly book was having an impact on Pre-Tribbers, a debate was scheduled as Cult figures wanted to counter Gundry’s rising influence. Erroneously thinking the pop apologist Lindsey was an adequate match for Gundry, the organizers had recruited Lindsey for the spectacle, which Lindsey apparently prepared for. However, at the last minute the professor had a prior commitment which forced the selection of another Post-Tribber to debate Lindsey the liar who, speaking on another occasion in the heat of the moment I just described, boasted of how he bested the prominent Post-Tribber in a debate that never occurred.

The pathetic episode has now been recounted in at least 3 books, but the fragile grasp Hal Lindsey has on the real world hasn’t made a dent in the enthusiasm of those caught in the greatest snare of all time:

“For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” Luke 21:35
REF.--- James Lloyd

All of this is a moot point because PAUL WROTE of the pretrib rapture. It is there in 1 Thes. for all to read. Trying to deny it is the same as trying to deny the Millennial reign.

For the readers: in 1 thes. 5 Paul shows us that His coming and the raising of the dead in Christ will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord and the start of HIS wrath. We find that at the 6th seal. So PAUL's gathering will be the very moment of the earthquake at the 6th seal: when the ground begins to move, we are snatched up. Paul then writes that this quake will be the start of His wrath - exactly what John wrote to finish out Rev. 6.

How amazing then, in Rev. 7 John SAW the raptured church in heaven.

Case closed. Pretrib is in the bible. It does not matter WHO "found it" later, Paul wrote it. It does not matter how many millions deny it: it is still truth.

Now Keras has blamed PAUL of writing of the occult. Keras, is this really where you want to go?
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
15,279
2,612
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟357,321.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Case closed. Pretrib is in the bible. It does not matter WHO "found it" later, Paul wrote it. It does not matter how many millions deny it: it is still truth.
What really does matter is that millions have believed the lie of a rapture removal to heaven. A lie that has been promoted by the father of lies and believed by all those Christians who prefer to leave the earth rather than face trials and testing.
The Truth that Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is not a pre-trib rapture at all. Paul tells us what will happen at the Return of Jesus, the resurrection of the saints and the gathering of those Christians who remain, to be with Him during His Millennium reign on earth.
How amazing then, in Rev. 7 John SAW the raptured church in heaven.
Another example of a rapturist adding words to scripture. The great multitude mentioned in Revelation 7:9 are on earth, as verses 1-3 make plain.
Now Keras has blamed PAUL of writing of the occult. Keras, is this really where you want to go?
Typical response from those whose precious beliefs are challenged; accuse them of what they are guilty of!
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
30,112
3,581
Non-dispensationalist
✟419,366.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Another example of a rapturist adding words to scripture. The great multitude mentioned in Revelation 7:9 are on earth, as verses 1-3 make plain.
Well, they are Christians in heaven, but I would not say that they are raptured Christians, because it appears as they died during the great tribulation, meaning they were not Christians aforehand (not raptured).

Verses 1-3, are not applying to them but Jews, which are on earth. Separately, the ones in Revelation 7:9, a different group are definitely pictured to be in heaven, in verse 7:15.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,649
744
79
Home in Tulsa
✟111,296.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
What really does matter is that millions have believed the lie of a rapture removal to heaven. A lie that has been promoted by the father of lies and believed by all those Christians who prefer to leave the earth rather than face trials and testing.
The Truth that Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is not a pre-trib rapture at all. Paul tells us what will happen at the Return of Jesus, the resurrection of the saints and the gathering of those Christians who remain, to be with Him during His Millennium reign on earth.

Another example of a rapturist adding words to scripture. The great multitude mentioned in Revelation 7:9 are on earth, as verses 1-3 make plain.

Typical response from those whose precious beliefs are challenged; accuse them of what they are guilty of!
How typical of those who deny a pretrib rapture just overlook the plain reading of a text. It is those preconceived glasses again!

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Readers, I leave it to you: is this great multitude on earth or are the standing before the throne of God in heaven?

Rhetorical question: why do people fight so hard to hold onto a false theory?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
30,112
3,581
Non-dispensationalist
✟419,366.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
btw, keras, if you couched your CME theory a little different, not to be so dogmatic, and say that you think there is a strong possibilty that a CME could happen. If you took not such a dogmatic approach, you might not get so much criticism.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
30,112
3,581
Non-dispensationalist
✟419,366.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
How amazing then, in Rev. 7 John SAW the raptured church in heaven.
lamad, I think we got to consider that John in chapter 4 his being instantly in heaven, upon hearing something like a trumpet, and "come up hither" represented the rapture.

The ones in heaven in Revelation7, though, it appears are persons who become Christians during the great tribulation, after the rapture has already taken place, and are there in heaven because they will have died during the great tribulaiton
 
Upvote 0

Short Timer

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
815
35
83
✟23,677.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I think that you have a very high opinion of yourself (pretentious and delusional) if you believe that one day you will be sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven.That place is reserved only to Jesus .Think about it !

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Where do you see in the text that God will -also- make the earth the footstool of those "worthy to escape"?

Mt 22:44 The LORD (God) said unto my Lord, (Jesus) Sit thou on my right hand, till I (God) make thine enemies thy footstool?

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

Somebody is escaping something and you don't have an answer as to who or what, but you're still right anyway, Right?????

You seem to think that the Church is Equal to Jesus because it symbolically represent the body of Christ on Earth.

There's nothing "Symbolic" about the "Spirit of God".

But judging from your doctrine, I can see why you would think it's only "Symbolic".


In KJV it said
And except those days should be shortened,...there should no flesh be SAVED ...meaning that everyone would have taken the mark and be LOST/UNSAVED exept the elects ... Knowing that if the reign of the AC is not shortened there will be no elect left alive on the Earth to be gathered at His Coming......

Not only would there no elect left alive, there wouldn't be any sinners either, "No flesh" means "No flesh", man or animal.

Matthew 24:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Rapture is over in the twinkling of an eye, nobody sees Jesus except the ones rapture.

Angel don't deal with the dead, only the "Living", God or Jesus is the only ones who can resurrect the dead, which is why Jesus must come himself in the rapture but send angels at the second coming to separate the "Living tares from the wheat", unsaved dead stay dead, and all righteous return "With Jesus", except the "Wheat" still alive here on earth.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
15,279
2,612
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟357,321.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Well, they are Christians in heaven, but I would not say that they are raptured Christians, because it appears as they died during the great tribulation, meaning they were not Christians aforehand (not raptured).
Dougg, you say I shouldn't be dogmatic, but you make statements as though they are facts, when scripture says no such thing! All of Revelation chapter 7, is telling of earthly happenings. Heaven is NOT mentioned in Rev 7.
The first 3 verses set the scene, soon after the terrible devastation of the Sixth Seal. The 144,000 and the vast multitude are in the Holy Land, where they have been gathered as Ezekiel 20:34-38 and many other prophesies say. The Lord is there, standing on Mt Zion, as Revelation 14:1 tells us. The elders, cherubs, etc will be seen then, in the same way as Ezekiel saw them. Ezekiel 1:1-28
Verses 15-17 must come after the new Temple is built. Much later in the Millennium, as then: He will wipe every tear from their eyes, is paralleled in Revelation 21:4.

Rhetorical question: why do people fight so hard to hold onto a false theory?
Statement: People hold onto a rapture removal because they have been locked into that false theory. Isaiah 29:9-12
The idea of a rapture to heaven is totally unsupported by any scripture and is refuted by the many prophesies that do inform us of God's plans for His people; of their gathering and settling into all of the holy Land. Psalms 37:29, Isaiah 65:24-25
 
Upvote 0

Short Timer

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2015
815
35
83
✟23,677.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The Occult Roots Of The Rapture Cult -
When pop apologists glibly claim the pre-tribulation rapture was taught down through the ages, they make a complete mockery of mountains of historical data, which is the turf of the scholars. The historic British denominational struggles are directly related to our probe of doctrinal origins, but few of today’s modern prognosticators of pre-trib have even the vaguest idea of what type of Christian theology was taught in the 12th century, the 15th century, or any century for that matter.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means:

You know why Paul wrote the above, it was because of the persecution of the Church and some believed and were saying the rapture had already occurred and they were in the Trib period because the church was being persecuted.

They believed in a pre trib rapture and falsely believed it had already occurred and they were "Left behind".

Scripture say the " Pr 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

When you "profess" to speak for God and teach his words, then God had better be your "Teacher",

and anyone who has any "Fear of God" will be careful about what they teach,

but "IF":
Ro 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

They won't care what they say, if it seemeth right to them, then it must be right.

Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

If "Spirit poor" was a physical condition, I'm afraid some of you wouldn't have enough cloth to cover one hair,

But that "Nakeness" will show up on Judgment day.

Re 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
 
Upvote 0

Riberra

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2014
5,098
594
✟97,664.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think that you have a very high opinion of yourself (pretentious and delusional) if you believe that one day you will be sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven.That place is reserved only to Jesus .Think about it !

We are JOINT HEIRS: what He gets we get. Did you not read that we are ALREADY raised up to sit with Him in heavenly places - in authority?

Ephesians 2
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Lets continue the verses to see the context.... No trip to Heaven before the Tribulation mentioned there either.

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
15,279
2,612
84
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟357,321.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means:

You know why Paul wrote the above, it was because of the persecution of the Church and some believed and were saying the rapture had already occurred and they were in the Trib period because the church was being persecuted.

They believed in a pre trib rapture and falsely believed it had already occurred and they were "Left behind".
Sheer rubbish, just put forward to promote a false theory. The joke is: it negates the pre-trib rapture theory!
Paul is undeniably talking about the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, which commences after the G.T. Jesus is coming to the earth and His people will be gathered to Him, on earth.
This does not happen until AFFTER the 'man of perdition' is revealed, and the G.T. is over.
 
Upvote 0

Riberra

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2014
5,098
594
✟97,664.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
To him that overcometh

Where do you see a rapture to Heaven before the Tribulation in that verse.It said that you must OVERCOME.
Remember that John wrote also:
Revelation 3:12
12 Him that overcometh WILL I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Mt 22:44 The LORD (God) said unto my Lord, (Jesus) Sit thou on my right hand, till I (God) make thine enemies thy footstool?
You are not Jesus.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

Somebody is escaping something and you don't have an answer as to who or what, but you're still right anyway, Right?????

Luke 9:24King James Version (KJV)

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33King James Version (KJV)

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

There's nothing "Symbolic" about the "Spirit of God".

But judging from your doctrine, I can see why you would think it's only "Symbolic".
Do you think that you are equal to Jesus because you as all Christians have received the Holy Spirit ?That is my point.


Not only would there no elect left alive, there wouldn't be any sinners either, "No flesh" means "No flesh", man or animal.
So nobody there when Jesus returns at the Battle of Armageddon....

The Rapture is over in the twinkling of an eye, nobody sees Jesus except the ones rapture.
This is the change into immortality of those in Christ still alive unto the coming of Jesus that will happen in the twinkling of an eye .Then we will be caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air.


Angel don't deal with the dead, only the "Living", God or Jesus is the only ones who can resurrect the dead, which is why Jesus must come himself in the rapture but send angels at the second coming to separate the "Living tares from the wheat", unsaved dead stay dead, and all righteous return "With Jesus", except the "Wheat" still alive here on earth.
The whole event will occur UNTO HIS ONLY COMING yet to come which will be AFTER the Tribulation.You have falled for the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine doctors who have invented a pre-advent ADVENT out of the only one TRUE ADVENT yet to come mentioned in the Bible .Matthew 24:29-31
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
30,112
3,581
Non-dispensationalist
✟419,366.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Dougg, you say I shouldn't be dogmatic, but you make statements as though they are facts, when scripture says no such thing! All of Revelation chapter 7, is telling of earthly happenings. Heaven is NOT mentioned in Rev 7.
What I am saying that you shouldn't be so dogmatic on is a scientific explanation in very specific terms as how the heat will scorch men.... and in your theory (if I understand you correctly) you expand to mean the destruction of the world as well.

The word "heaven" is not in Revelation 7. But the description of being before the throne of God is tantamount (the same as) saying heaven.

The first 3 verses set the scene, soon after the terrible devastation of the Sixth Seal.

The first three verses of Revelation 7 and the sealing of the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel are "before" any of the judgements begin on the earth. The 144,000 will be here on earth during the great tribulation. The other group is seen in heaven, having come out of the great tribulation.... meaning they were in it, for a while.

3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Verses 15-17 must come after the new Temple is built. Much later in the Millennium, as then: He will wipe every tear from their eyes, is paralleled in Revelation 21:4.

The ones in Revelation 7:15-17 have come out of the great tribulation, and are in His temple before the throne of God in heaven. Do you not recall Paul saying the things here on earth are patterned after the true which are in heaven?

Revelation 21:4 is a different set of circumstances.....and is after the Great White throne judgment in Revelation 20.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
Upvote 0

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2015
497
66
62
✟40,634.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
lamad, I think we got to consider that John in chapter 4 his being instantly in heaven, upon hearing something like a trumpet, and "come up hither" represented the rapture.

The ones in heaven in Revelation7, though, it appears are persons who become Christians during the great tribulation, after the rapture has already taken place, and are there in heaven because they will have died during the great tribulaiton

Can't be right,John was not raptured

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

"The first voice which I heard..." Who is this "I" in verse one? Of course it's John, the one writing this. Have you ever heard John referred to as "the Church"? Absolutely not. There is no church in heaven; not at this point. However, there will be, for heaven is where ever God is, and at the appointed time He is coming here to earth. Then there will be one church, one gathering place where the called-out ones shall meet.
"...I heard as it were of a trumpet"; [This is the last trumpet] "...talking with me,". The voice here is not speaking to the church, but it is directed to John. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be here after." That refers to the "day" that is after our subject, "The Lords Day"."I will shew thee [John, singular]", transporting John and John only, in the spirit to this certain place in heaven.
There is no church in this verse going anyplace. There is only John being taken to heaven in the spirit, and hearing a voice like a trumpet calling him up. John was taken from 90 A.D. to a time beyond this year, 1994; for we are living in the final generation. The whole purpose for John writing this entire book of Revelation is to warn the people of this generation of the great deception the Antichrist, and his system would bring upon the earth before Jesus Christ's return. We are living in the generation of the "parable of the fig tree" and that is why Jesus told us to learn it, so that we would not be deceived.

Now about the ones you say become Christians

The Elect are still on earth during the trib,no worthy of a group of people to be raptured than these yet they are still here,go figure...

You'll spiritualize things away that don't fit your doctrine......
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.