Why do people believe in a Rapture?
- Thread starter Bro.T
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How many times have I already said that, but like this one, none of the others sunk in either.
The only option possible is just what the scripture say, the "HE" is taken out of the way before the AC and his lying signs and wonders begin.
It's not just the rapture you don't understand but this Relationship between Jesus and his "Bride", the church,
nor do you understand why the presents of this HG in the world is such a "Restrainer" of Satan, and must be taken out of satan's way before he can be turned loose.
That HG of Jesus is the "protector" Jesus sent to protect his bride, the church and will always be with the bride, and when it is taken out of the way of Satan at the Fulness of the gentiles, the church goes with it,
Ya'll can't explain a reason for the rapture, your second coming rapture would be at a time the world is on the verge of "NO FLESH" surviving and no explanation of why only so few are "Accounted worthy" to escape the last few seconds of the trib,
Plus there's no mention of anyone or group of people escaping the trib at the end, or in the middle,
if you're "accounted worthy" to enter the trib and be chastised by God's Rod, you're not going to escape,
God don't promise you a whipping and then not give it, neither does he chastise those who don't deserve it.
For people who do understand the scriptures and hear all this garbage that nobody goes to heaven, and a second coming rapture, first thing they recognize is your ignorance of scripture,
because the reason for both of these covers a lot of scripture,
Jesus said he had prevailed and overcome the world, but if we listen to ya'll,
the world and Satan is going to prevail and overcome the "Body of Christ".
Yes, that is what ya'll are "teaching", and so ignorant of scripture you don't know it.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion,
All these different "Theories" are not the "GOSPEL TRUTH".
If you don't have a Relationship with Jesus that you can "Hear him", then you don't have any relationship with him.
And if you have those "EARS", you will "KNOW THE TRUTH",
Not because I say so, but because "HE SAID SO".
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NO, Jesus is not mentioned in the OT, however a "Messiah" is mentioned, one that comes "Only" to the "Jewish people", not the "Gentile Samaritans".
And one that comes "Only" on the "Seventh day" and setup a literal kingdom (MK) on this planet, not one that comes on the "Fourth day" and setup a "Spiritual Kingdom"..."With in you".
Israel was/is expecting a "Man prophet", like Moses, not "God in the flesh".
De 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Israel's ignorance of Jesus/church/rapture is one of the reasons why they are "Blinded" until Jesus/church are rapture "out of the way" so that God can finish Daniel's prophecy with Israel.
And from what I'm seeing here, Jesus/church/rapture are as much a Mystery to ya'll as they are to Israel.
The second coming is what the Jews were expecting when the "Messiah" comes, if they didn't know anything about a Jesus and Gentile church, they sure didn't know anything about a Rapture of that Gentile church.
The Rapture is not the second coming, that is part of the "Mystery" of Jesus/church.
Moses prophesied God using a "people who are not a people" to make Israel jealous,
but like a good portion here, Israel didn't understand what the scripture said and meant either.
De 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Best learn what Israel was expecting if you want to understand the scriptures.
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ivebeenshown
Expert invisible poster and thread killer
And in Mark 13, the elect are gathered from the farthest reaches of heaven and earth, which may be an idiomatic expression or literal, I am unsure.
If you are referring to my username, it only means that God converted my heart to have faith in Jesus, and that he showed me he was truly God. That is all. Please do not use our disagreement as an opportunity to mock me.
On one hand, a mystery is a mystery regardless of how many times it is repeated. On the other hand, the mystery to which Paul was referring might have been the fact that we would receive immortal bodies.
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Reader beware this guy us without understanding...Lets go into Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
But wait a minute! Isaiah the prophets knew this...lets go into Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith theLord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
We learn something else...false prophets and people who transgress against the Lord. Notice something else...how the Lord still deals with his sabbaths and new moon, which some people teach thats done away with...Woe into those people.
All of this on earth people!
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iamlamad
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I was referring to the Mark version of the discourse. It simply does not fit Paul's rapture. At Paul's rapture the dead in Christ rise up into the air, then those alive are caught up into the air and TOGETHER go up to Jesus in the clouds. That is Paul's GATHERING.
How could we make what Mark wrote fit this? Was that the Holy Spirit's intent when He had Mark write? I don't think so. I think Matthew and Mark are speaking of another gathering.
No, once a mystery is solved, it is no longer a mystery. God in the Gentiles was a mystery. It was a mystery that some would be caught up alive an not have to die.
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keras
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Yes Jesus Himself denied any rapture removal to heaven: John 2:13, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10
Paul confirmed we remain on earth until Jesus Returns: 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 1 Corinthians 10:13
Peter said that Judgement must come first and it will be hard for even the righteous to be saved. 1 Peter 4:17-18
What Paul told the Thessalonians was that there will be a gathering of the Lord's people at His Return, to where Jesus will be, that is: in Jerusalem. He never said anyone would be taken to heaven.
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ivebeenshown
Expert invisible poster and thread killer
Jesus says the Angels will gather his elect from the far reaches of heaven and earth. At "Paul's rapture", as you call it, does "the dead" not include bodies from earth and souls from heaven?
We are not speaking of detective mysteries. A mystery can be something beyond understanding. Just because we know God will give us immortal bodies does not mean that we can comprehend how we will do such an incredible thing. Paul speaks elsewhere of "holding the mystery of the faith." Elsewhere he says "great is the mystery of godliness."
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Note that while at the future point in time of Revelation 7:2-4, only the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will be sealed for physical protection, all obedient people in the church will still be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). Also, before Revelation 7:2-4 happens, the 144,000, along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's 1st stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). It is near the end of this 1st stage that the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).
After the 2nd stage, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).
The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while 2 other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16); and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials (Revelation 16) will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Note that this isn't contradicting that evil forces can prevail against the church physically. For just as Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), so evil forces will physically overcome the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will prevail physically against believers (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
Instead, Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).
That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16), when, after his resurrection, he went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).
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Regarding the future tribulation, Daniel 12:7b shows that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
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Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles . . .
Note that these verses foretold that Jesus' gospel of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), would save both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:46-47). The New Covenant includes Gentile believers by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).
Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus' first coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23) and his sending forth of his apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).
Also, Paul quotes 4 Old Testament verses in Romans 15:9-12 that foretold the salvation of the Gentiles (2 Samuel 22:50/Psalms 18:49, Deuteronomy 32:43, Psalms 117:1, Isaiah 11:10). This is what he meant by the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 being "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).
God chose Peter the apostle to be the first one to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles (Acts 15:7, Acts 10:34-48), to make Gentile believers partakers of the Jews' spiritual things (Romans 15:27, John 4:22b), just as Paul sometimes preached the gospel to Jews (e.g. Acts 13:16-41).
This mystery (Ephesians 3:4) is also explained in Ephesians 3:6, which means that believing Gentiles become fellowheirs with believing Israelites, and of the same body as Israel, and partakers of God's promise in Christ made to Israel.
Actually, Zechariah 6:11-12 and Zechariah 3:8-10 showed by type that the Christ, the Messiah, would be a high priest (Hebrews 6:20) named "Joshua", or "Jesus", "Jesus" being the Greek form of the Hebrew name "Joshua" (like how, for example, "Juan" is the Spanish form of the English name "John"). "The Branch" (Zechariah 6:12, Zechariah 3:8) is a title of the Christ (Isaiah 4:2-6, Jeremiah 33:14-17). And where it says "upon one stone shall be seven eyes" (Zechariah 3:9), this too is fulfilled by Jesus, the stone (1 Peter 2:7) who is at one point symbolically shown as having 7 "eyes" (Revelation 5:6). "I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day" (Zechariah 3:9) will be fulfilled at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 4:4-6). And Zechariah 3:10 refers to the time of the millennium (Micah 4:4), when the returned Jesus will be ruling the earth from Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-4).
Do you mean that the Old Testament doesn't show the deity of Christ?
If so, note that this idea is mistaken, just as is another idea held by unbelieving Judaism: that nowhere does the Old Testament show the death of Christ for our sins and his rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Luke 24:46). Unbelieving Judaism makes these claims because it is unable to understand many of the Old Testament's teachings regarding the Messiah/Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14), just as before Christ came, no one could understand many of these teachings. For they were kept secret by God (Romans 16:25-26, Luke 18:34), and were first revealed to the apostles by Christ after his resurrection (Luke 24:44-47, Galatians 1:12), and then recorded in the New Testament.
Now Christians can know how perfectly the Old Testament shows the deity of Christ. Christ being uncreated, his having existed forever, from everlasting, is shown in Micah 5:2c (cf. John 1:1,14, John 8:58, Colossians 1:16-17). Christ being YHWH the Holy One, from everlasting, is shown in Habakkuk 1:12 (cf. Acts 3:14, Micah 5:2c). Christ being the human/divine Son of God due to his virgin birth is shown in Isaiah 7:14 (cf. Matthew 1:22-25, Luke 1:34-35). Christ being the mighty God is shown in Isaiah 9:6 (cf. Titus 2:13). Christ being YHWH the good shepherd is shown in Psalms 23:1 (cf. John 10:11, Mark 10:18). Christ being YHWH who will set his feet on the Mount of Olives at his return is shown in Zechariah 14:3-4 (cf. Acts 1:11-12). Christ being YHWH the Redeemer who is the first and last is shown in Isaiah 44:6 (cf. Revelation 2:8, Titus 2:13-14). Christ being YHWH the great I AM is shown in Exodus 3:14 (cf. John 8:58). Christ being one God with God the Father, equal in divinity to God the Father, is shown in Isaiah 45:5-6 and Isaiah 43:10b (cf. John 10:30, John 20:28, Philippians 2:6); for they show that YHWH is the only God, and that he has always been and forever will be the only God.
Similarly, Christians can know how perfectly the Old Testament foretold the death of Christ for our sins and his rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day (Acts 26:22-23; 1 Corinthians 15:1-5, Luke 24:44-47). His death for our sins was foretold in Isaiah 53 (cf. Acts 8:32-35; 1 Peter 2:24). His crucifixion experience was foretold in Psalms 22 (cf. Matthew 27:46,35). His not remaining dead was foretold in Psalms 16:10 (cf. Acts 2:31). His rising from the dead on the 3rd day was foretold in Hosea 6:2 (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:4, Luke 24:46, Colossians 2:12). That Christ's New Covenant gospel (Matthew 26:28) would go forth to save both Jews and Gentiles was foretold in Isaiah 49:6 and Isaiah 42:6 (cf. Acts 26:23b, Luke 24:47). For some other examples of how Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scriptures at his first coming: he fulfilled Deuteronomy 18:15,18,19 (cf. Acts 3:22-24, Luke 24:44), and Zechariah 9:9 (cf. Matthew 21:4-5), and Psalms 118:22 (cf. Acts 4:11), and Isaiah 9:1-2 (cf. Matthew 4:12-16), and Psalms 110:4 (cf. Hebrews 6:20).
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In Isaiah 66:23, the future new moon and sabbath observances, which could occur on the new earth (Isaiah 66:22-24), won't be the new moon and sabbath observances of the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19), but observances according to some new rules which Jesus will institute under the auspices of his New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 8:6-9). Just as believers don't yet need to keep the future, millennial form of a New Covenant feast of tabernacles and animal sacrifices at a temple in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-21), so believers don't yet need to keep the future, possibly new-earth, New Covenant form of new moon and sabbath observances (Isaiah 66:22-24).
And Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, don't have to, now or ever, keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the 10 commandments written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13) was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b), which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which believers are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).
Saying that believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as wrong as saying that believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If believers keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, then they are as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as believers who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:2). They have become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They have placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10).
So no believer should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Believers need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Believers must never judge other believers for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).
For its letter was merely a shadow; now it all comes down to Jesus himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all believers enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).
Also, Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day, the 1st day of the week, was the day on which Jesus rose (Mark 16:9) from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John the apostle. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).
But it is not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day, or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath, because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week. Christians are never to judge each other over this matter, but are simply to do what they believe Jesus wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point isn't for Christians to esteem days, but to focus on the person of Jesus himself (Colossians 2:16-17).
Some people mistakenly deny any future for the church on the earth, based on:
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
But this means that Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-4, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning physically from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).
Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).
Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
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Postvieww
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Lamad said in #4844, Blue
No posttribber has EVER been able to prove that the Matthew 24 gathering is the rapture.
I could just say here no pretribber has ever proved Matt 24 is not the rapture, but I will not just leave it at that.
Indeed it will be impossible to prove such a thing, because it is NOT. Did you never study WHERE this gathering in Matthew 24 is gathered FROM? It cannot be the rapture. In Paul's rapture we are gathered from the air around the earth. It will NOT be from the furthest reaches of heaven.
The phrase to which you refer is figurative language. So you would have us believe Jesus returns to earth in the clouds with His angels then sends them back to heaven
(where God dwells) with a trumpet to gather his elect from the four winds of heaven (you claim where God dwells). This is another attempt to build a case on wording you can “add to the meaning” for us.
Perhaps what you have been shown was in error.
Perhaps what you are claiming here is error.
By the way, if Jesus said something before Paul, then for Paul it was NOT a mystery. Right?
Wrong! Jesus spoke of the same coming Paul spoke of. Paul’s mystery was the the mystery of the resurrection he described in more detail than other writers, not a mystery coming. That mystery coming referred to as the “pre-trib rapture” is a creation of man.
This “four winds of heaven “ argument is not based on scripture, it is a human reasoning argument based on the false premise of the church being raptured to heaven prior to the tribulation, and an attempted play on the word heaven. There is no rapture in scripture where the church goes up to where God dwells. There is scripture for those dead in Christ (their spirits) coming down with him.
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Both references to heaven in vs 29 refer to a cosmic event as set by the context of the verse. Sun darkened, moon not giving light. Stars fall from heaven also a cosmic event established by the context. “The powers of the heavens” refers to at least 2 of the 3 heavens, in the context of the verse still a cosmic event.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Heaven in this verse is clearly the sky above our heads because “all the tribes of the earth” witness the event and they mourn. Since the tribes of the earth see the “sign of the Son of man” in the sky above our heads and they see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” the second reference in this passage of the word heaven is also the sky above our heads.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
If “he” sends his angels to gather, does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.
Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.
The events of this passage are on this earth.
Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.
Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
The events of this passage are on the earth.
Zech 2: 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.
The events of this passage are on the earth
In context, none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells.
The gathering from the four winds of heaven in Matthew is from this earth as well, it is the same as “Paul’s gathering”.
There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture. There is only one more coming of Jesus. No pre-tribber has ever proved there are two. This method of taking every little difference in wording between passages to create a new coming has been proven over and over again to be faulty exegesis.
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The Comforter/HG won't be needing to protect any Church member who is accounted worthy to escape, they will be sitting beside of Jesus in heaven who is sitting beside of God while God make the earth Jesus footstool.
My bible say all those sealed are Jews, do you know the two tribes left out and not sealed and why,
and who they represent as symbols in scripture???
Compare Genesis 49 with Rev 7, since you need the study, I'll let you do it.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
There's info in scripture most of you have no clue that it even exist.
According to scripture, what would happen "IF" Jesus didn't return???
"NO FLESH" surviving??????
You're contradicting scripture, as is most of your interpretations of scripture.
Flesh and blood can't enter heaven, and I don't find any mention of a "Change" of the body like the rapture during the trib, you're adding to scripture what is not there.
Guess you really don't understand why the "body of sin" must be "killed" (Crucified) before we can be saved,
or why God sends the devil/AC to do just that.
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,
Which "Woman" is scripture referring to, the "Bride of Christ" (Church) or the "Woman that gave birth to the "man Child", Israel/Jesus?????
My Bible says the devil persecuted the one who gave birth to the man child, Israel, not the "Bride of Christ".
Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
There is no rapture at the second coming, all dead/rapture saints are in heaven and return with Jesus,
unsaved dead stay dead and angel reapers separate the "Living" tares from the wheat, Angels don't gather/separate the dead, only the living,
Only in the rapture are graves opened, and with them returning/coming with Jesus and unsaved dead saying dead, no graves are open at the second coming.
Jesus said the gates of hell couldn't prevail against the saints of the church and scripture says the devil does prevail over the trib saints.
Has the devil wiped the church off the face of the earth as he will do in the "No flesh" surviving trib???
Why is the church told to resist the devil and he will flee from you, but he doesn't flee from trib saints???
Why is the church told to go to all the world and preach the Gospel, but trib saints told to hide in their Chamber until the indignation is over???
I think you've got some more studying, unless you want to make up more "Fairy tales" about scripture as many are doing.
If Jesus himself was here during the trib, you think the AC could prevail over "HIM" personally???
Your answer is "YES", the devil could do all the things to Jesus personally that he does to other saints.
From your doctrine I know that most of you don't have any "Spiritual guidance", consequently, you don't know what being the "Body of Christ" really means, so let me tell you.
It means that the same spirit that occupied the body of Jesus, and made him who he was,
is the same spirit that occupies the "Body of the church" and makes them an "Image of Jesus", (conform to his image)
That same spirit in Jesus that the devil could not prevail over is the same spirit in the church that the devil can not prevail over.
Jesus is not here "Physically" but he is here "Spiritually". (Comforter/HG)
And that is why "JESUS" (Comforter/HG/"HE") has to be "Taken out of the way" before the devil can "Prevail" over whatever is "left behind".
Without knowing what you're teaching, you're saying the devil can/will prevail over Jesus/his (God's) spirit.
False doctrines is one thing but not having any "fellowship with God, through the spirit", to know the "TRUTH" is a damnable offense, and we only get "one chance",
best take a long hard look at where you are "with God".
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iamlamad
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Sorry, but you are adding words to Paul for he never said that.
If you wish to stay behind while the rest of the Bride of Christ goes to the mansions prepared for us, I am quite sure God will give you your wish. As for me, I want to see my mansion.
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iamlamad
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No, at the time of the rapture, the "souls from heaven" are already there with Jesus in the air. The "gathering" is when the dead are raised up into the air, and then a moment later the liviing in Christ: so then both toGETHER go up to meet Jesus in the air. The gathering comes from toGETHER. All will be gathered from THE AIR around the planet to the one location in the air where Jesus will be. I really don't know if Angels will assist or not, for Paul does not say. I guess some time previous to Jesus descent He will gather the souls in heaven, but that is not a part of Paul's gathering.
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When Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians was written, it contained no chapters or verses. It was one letter.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(Here the word sleep refers to the dead in-Christ, which connects this verse back to chapter 4.)
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(Here the word sleep refers to the dead in-Christ, which connects this verse back to chapter 4.)
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
.
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iamlamad
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The phrase to which you refer is figurative language. Who said? It is a guess. If God wanted to gather a people from everywhere, heaven and earth, how else to write it?
Again you are trying to force two events with explanations of each into ONE event. The bible has "gathering" mentioned in different places and by different authors. So the bible itself has then separated. The descriptions are different. It is you trying to make two into one.
Just suppose, that after the pretrib rapture, and after the 7th vial that ends the week, and after the marriage and supper in heaven, and as Jesus descends He sends His angels to gather every last descendant of Jacob back to Israel, INCLUDING all those in heaven and all those on the earth. You understand, He has promised to do this. Now, if one were to write of this gathering, how would they write it? Maybe like this?
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Wrong! Jesus spoke of the same coming Paul spoke of.
This is again only an opinion with no proof. People have been arguing this for ages. If there was proof the arguments would have ceased.
Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52
All this is human reasoning and conjecture: an opinion with no proof. People have been arguing this for ages. If there was proof the arguments would have ceased. People determine theory from EVERY scripture on a subject, not just one.
If “he” sends his angels to gather, does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.
It's a DIFFERENT gathering. Here people are gathered to Israel which is on earth. Fro the pretrib rapture, IF "angels" are used, they will certainly go back to heaven with the church and with Jesus, for He will remain in heaven for the duration of the week.
As I have always said, if you wish to be left behind, or if you just can't see a pretrib rapture, so will not be expecting and watching, you will be left behind. But so what? It is what you are expecting anyway. Just be prepared to lose your head. I may see you as you enter heaven after being martyred.
I, on the other hand, DO see a pretrib rapture. I know the heart of my Father, that He will not leave me here on earth during the time of His wrath. I know He has not set any appointment for me with His wrath. So while you are going thirsty and hungry and no way to buy water or food, I will be enjoying the fruits along the river of life, and will be walking on the gold sidewalks.
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