Why do other Christians hate Pentecostals so much?

Concerning Luke 22:19

Papyrus 75 (200 AD), one of the Bodmer Papyrii published 1956-62 (3) p 116, was also found to contain ALL EIGHT of the "Western Omissions," thus undermining the testimony of D. Hence-at this point-the critics did an abrupt "about face" and in consequence the 1971 Edition of the RSV conforms to the Majority Text in Luke 22:19-20.https://www.ecclesia.org/truth/manuscript_evidence.html

Both sides of the textual arguments given here:
https://bible.org/seriespage/2-examination-key-texts-discussion[/QUOTE]

The participants in the Last Supper, namely, Matthew and John don't mention the word 'remembrance'. Mark who got much of the information from Peter who was also participant don't mention either. Who do you believe? Actual witnesses or rank outsiders?

Folks, this thread is really getting off topic, and it appears coming close to breaking sitewide rules.

Please let's return to something at least related to the OP, and feel free to start new threads on new topics.

Thank you.

Radrook said:

In my case the erratic unpredictable body movements and sounds.
I don't like being around persons who seem out of control in that way.

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Yeah, it can be quite unnerving. I would suspect it would bother me also, if I hadn't been raised around it.

It doesn't save anyone. I don't even know if I completely agree with it. Been searching the scriptures myself and letting God guide me through His Word and through study of it.

I've "Dance in the Spirit" before. And yeah, it's like a huge burst of Emotion jumping out of you.
You just want to shout, and give praise to God. But because of my doubt of the salvation reasons that I've not found yet. I've not done so again.
It's about Christ and saving the Lost. Not about how loud or how high someone can shout or jump.

Yeah, I've heard of people who have come to the Lord by seeing these actions. But those are usually people who have been around it in their life time. They understand what is going on.

But these actions don't happen every time the Pentecostal church meets for service. We have preaching, praise and worship and altar calls, just like many others.

Yes, though. We do worship Him. Preach Christ crucified. The Gospel. And place our trust in Jesus.

Is it wrong, No. There is no sin in it. Unless your faking and just trying to gain attention...there are hypocrites in Pentecostal churches also.

The Bible is silent about it, except for on the day of Pentecost. Whether they shouted and danced, don't know, wasn't there. Neither was anyone else here I'm sure. Could it have happened. Sure. Could it not have happened. Sure...again, wasn't there.
Just know when you read the scripture about that day and the very vivid description of what happened in that upper room. It wasn't told as a dirge...it was told like WOW!! THE COMFORTER HAS COME.!!!

Daniel Marsh said:

Many Churches today who are Dispensationists do not even believe there is prophecy today. So, how can they have false prophets, when they have no prophets?

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Preachers are prophets...all prophet means is someone who is called to deliver the inspired Word of God.

Latin prophēta < Greek prophḗtēs, equivalent to pro- pro-2 + -phētēs speaker, derivative of phánai to speak

The Bible is inspired and those who preach from it are ministers, evangelist, and or prophet. They speak the Word.

Now prophecy is a different gift altogether.
So is Dispensations, this isn't a gift of course. Just another thought on Eschatology. Many also don't believe in the dispensational thoughts.

Righttruth said:

Discorderly conduct, rolling on floor, shouting, etc. will not catch extra attention of God who is God of order, not of confusion.

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First it isn't about getting God's attention. He already sees us, He already knows what we are thinking what we intend, what we need, He knows all this way before we even do.
Second, your right, there is a form of order that should happen In the church. And your are also right that God is not the author of confusion. But I'm not and many others don't get confused about it. Then again, many do.
Still doesn't make it wrong.

You cannot make out that through the internet. It is like saying you smell the coffee that I have drunk!

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Sure you can. It's all about how you word your sentences. Like the last part of your statement above, would be considered a smart alec response given with distain. It's not always how you say things, it is always what you say that matters.

That is the Holy Spirit grieving more or less silently. Jesus exhibited righteous anger by words, not by contouring His body. Jesus called spade a spade, not by using unknown tongue.

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How do you know this? Have you ever experienced the Holy Ghost moaning? I haven't. I just know He does. It isn't about the noise, the point I was making they show emotions. Moaning shows the emotion of grief. Christ showed His emotion of anger toward those He drove out.
And He showed the emotion of contempt toward those lawyers whom he called hypocrite and viper. It wasn't about what they said. It was the emotions. Because you question that emotions cannot be shown and be spiritual.



Right

Pentecostal people believe in another baptism conducted by another person to receive the Holy Spirit resulting in speaking gibberish.

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I'm Pentecostal. I know what I believe. and it what you say above. Isn't true.

We believe that a person is baptized in the Spirit of God when they are Born Again. the Baptist called it imputed righteousness. It's the same thing, different words. We also believe that Christ righteousness is imputed upon us. That God sees Christ righteousness when He looks at us after we are Born Again.
We believe one should be baptized in water, not sprinkled, as an outward sign of the death to this world and sin and the resurrection to a new life in Christ. Water Baptism does not save us at all.
We believe that the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Trinity. That He can indue us with His Spirit and is shown through the evidence of Speaking in Tongues. Does everyone speak in tongues, No. It's a gift. Those who can speak, then there are those who can interpret, which is also a gift.

Why this was observed after Paul left only in notorious Corinth?

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Don't know. Wasn't there. But it doesn't mean it didn't happen again, now does it?

The eye witnesses Matthew and John don't mention of observance as a part of 'remembrance'. Mark who got direct information from Peter also omitted it. Paul was nowhere in the picture.

As I said, Paul got his information from Peter and James. They were there.
All this proves is that the Gospels were written after it happened, that they all wrote what they saw and remembered what happened, and that the rumor that all the Gospels were just changed up copies of Mark, which was written first. Still doesn't mean it didn't happen.

How much of it except his own abridged gospel sometime against the essence of preaching of Jesus?

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So now your saying Paul didn't preach about Christ? what bible are you reading?
That's all Paul talks about is Christ, being like Him, living like Him, if needed to die like Him, to sacrifice like Him. That Christ is the perfect example on How we should live.

Philippians 1
21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

1 Corinthians 1
30It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption.

Colossians 3:1-4
1Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is youra life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

In the last one here, which there are many more, He mentions Christ name four times.

You do know what the Gospel is right? The Good news of Jesus. Of what He did for us, so that we may be saved. Paul preaches this. It's not abridged as you say.

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Scripture to support some of your post.
"Of the doctrine of baptisms ,..." Heb 6:2 Baptism can mean union and identification.

3 baptisms; specifically:

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus is baptism for salvation (blood baptism)
(Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13: Acts 2:38: Gal 3:27)

Water and Spirit baptism follow - not in a set order:
2 - By other believers, water baptism (Matt 28:19)
3 - By Jesus with or into The Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism)
(Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; Acts 11:16)

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8

Righttruth said:

Pentecostal people believe in another baptism conducted by another person to receive the Holy Spirit resulting in speaking gibberish.

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Well...yeah. That's kind of what the bible teaches. Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit, and HE is 'another man', than the man who water baptized you. And in scripture, that water baptizing guy could have been before or after receiving Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues.

MAT 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

As to your use of the term "gibberish" it merely puts this whole argument back into the 'haves' and the 'have not' camps. What you call 'gibberish' we quote the bible as being a language from YOUR spirit and an "unknown tongue which no man understands".

1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Some understand that there are three sources of tongues.

1. The tongue from your soul (English in my case).
2. The tongue from your spirit (prayer tongue)
3. Gift of tongues as one of the 12 charismata manifestations from the Holy Spirit.

Those not understanding these differences never rightly divide scripture correctly. But thankfully verse 14 helps define verse 2 above.

1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Not only is 'my understanding' unfruitful when I pray to God in a tongue "no man understands" so also is YOUR understanding unfruitful. And calling my spirit's prayer tongue gibberish, simply proves....a 'have not' spirit attitude.

Why this was observed after Paul left only in notorious Corinth?

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Because tongues was so much of a given in all churches he only needed to deal with one church which was in error in Greece.

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

I keep seeing prophesying right up along side speaking in tongues as biblical, but while many here claim they speak in tongues, I see no one claiming they prophesy.

I've asked this before on other threads, but it always went unanswered...does anyone here prophesy and if so can you please give us examples of your prophesies that came to pass, or will come to pass in the near future? Or even the ones that didn't come to pass if you dare...I'll take anything.

I''ll make my point later, and how it is relevant to the OP once I see how my request goes, and thanks for any insight anyone might have to offer also on where the prophets are, and why they're not as prevalent as those who say they speak in tongues, if they are around at all?

I remember while going through Youth Group we always referred to Pentecostals as: "Those Crazy Pentecostals." Now I still refer to the Pentecostal Church as "My Crazy Cousins." I don't mean any malice by it but as more affectionate.

Hessmix said:

I remember while going through Youth Group we always referred to Pentecostals as: "Those Crazy Pentecostals." Now I still refer to the Pentecostal Church as "My Crazy Cousins." I don't mean any malice by it but as more affectionate.

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I always say just because we're brothers in Christ, certainly doesn't mean we have to be twin brothers.

But neither am I one of those who thinks you have to speak in tongues or else you aren't saved. That was simply a very hurtful doctrine to the many membered corporate church body IMO.

smithed64 said:

First it isn't about getting God's attention. He already sees us, He already knows what we are thinking what we intend, what we need, He knows all this way before we even do.
Second, your right, there is a form of order that should happen In the church. And your are also right that God is not the author of confusion. But I'm not and many others don't get confused about it. Then again, many do.
Still doesn't make it wrong.

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If confusion and disorder are also accepted as not confusing and disorder by confused mind, who can help in deciding the orderly behavior expected by God?

Sure you can. It's all about how you word your sentences. Like the last part of your statement above, would be considered a smart alec response given with distain. It's not always how you say things, it is always what you say that matters.

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Please don't forget the body language that is missing in our communication.

How do you know this? Have you ever experienced the Holy Ghost moaning? I haven't. I just know He does. It isn't about the noise, the point I was making they show emotions. Moaning shows the emotion of grief. Christ showed His emotion of anger toward those He drove out.
And He showed the emotion of contempt toward those lawyers whom he called hypocrite and viper. It wasn't about what they said. It was the emotions. Because you question that emotions cannot be shown and be spiritual.

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I think we need to use the right word in our understanding here, 'grieving'.

I'm Pentecostal. I know what I believe. and it what you say above. Isn't true.

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What if the belief is a deviation? What is the yardstick? Jesus or someone else?

We believe that a person is baptized in the Spirit of God when they are Born Again. the Baptist called it imputed righteousness. It's the same thing, different words. We also believe that Christ righteousness is imputed upon us. That God sees Christ righteousness when He looks at us after we are Born Again.

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What is the sign of being born-again? I prefer to use born from above? Just a claim?

We believe one should be baptized in water, not sprinkled, as an outward sign of the death to this world and sin and the resurrection to a new life in Christ. Water Baptism does not save us at all.

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Agreed

We believe that the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Trinity. That He can indue us with His Spirit and is shown through the evidence of Speaking in Tongues.

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Not in unknown tongue!

Does everyone speak in tongues, No. It's a gift. Those who can speak, then there are those who can interpret, which is also a gift.

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One of the greatest gifts of God given to humans to distinguish from animals is tongue that is understandable. Animals sounds may be interpreted partly, wrongly or understandingly and differently by different people.

Don't know. Wasn't there. But it doesn't mean it didn't happen again, now does it?

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I think Paul should have asked himself about that before writing 1 Corinthians.

Hillsage said:

Well...yeah. That's kind of what the bible teaches. Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit, and HE is 'another man', than the man who water baptized you. And in scripture, that water baptizing guy could have been before or after receiving Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues.

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There is only one baptism invoking God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Speaking in unknown tongue is never a part of this act.

As to your use of the term "gibberish" it merely puts this whole argument back into the 'haves' and the 'have not' camps. What you call 'gibberish' we quote the bible as being a language from YOUR spirit and an "unknown tongue which no man understands".

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Whether use of 'unknown' or 'gibberish' both mean the same. You know the word 'unknown' is a inserted word in KJV

1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

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I don't bother what one speaks to God in whatever manner privately. Let us relate that to the Holy Spirit.

Some understand that there are three sources of tongues.

1. The tongue from your soul (English in my case).
2. The tongue from your spirit (prayer tongue)
3. Gift of tongues as one of the 12 charismata manifestations from the Holy Spirit.

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I am objecting that no. 2 is being connected to the Holy Spirit. That is simply person's spirit.

Those not understanding these differences never rightly divide scripture correctly. But thankfully verse 14 helps define verse 2 above.

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1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

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So it is not the Holy Spirit's involvement, but of a person's spirit.

Not only is 'my understanding' unfruitful when I pray to God in a tongue "no man understands" so also is YOUR understanding unfruitful. And calling my spirit's prayer tongue gibberish, simply proves....a 'have not' spirit attitude.

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I have no objections to your personal communication to God that you yourself don't understand in private. It is not related to the Holy Spirit.

Because tongues was so much of a given in all churches he only needed to deal with one church which was in error in Greece.

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No, this unknown tongue business was found only in notorious Corinthian church of ungodly Gentiles which Paul founded.

Thomas JH, welcome to the forums.

Why do people hate this specific denomination so much?
Because it goes against their image of Yahweh and The Holy Spirit as well as their image of a believer.

Some have studied Scripture to formulate their opinions. It's easy to be offended - either way - for or against. Learning to respect other believers - no matter their opinions is my goal.

btw, Did you know there's a Pentecostal forum?

Daniel Marsh said:

While attending Madonna University, I encountered many Catholic Charismatics who had a lot of pride. They considered themselves spiritually superior to everyone else.
I would ask them some basic questions on History related to the Bible. They were completely lost, and all they could do is misquote some Bible verses totally unrelated to what I asked them. More than likely People have simply reacted to someone they met with a spiritual chip on their shoulder. Research among Catholic Apologetists detected a high level Mary idol worship among Catholic Charismatics too. Many Catholics I know detest such false worship that belongs to God alone.

I have also encountered among us protestants that spiritual chip on the shoulder many times through the years. Also, many Charismatics and Pentecostals teach every wind of false doctrine that blows. To a lot of people those movements are a laughing stock.

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got to admit ..all that is factual enough .

you might find this interesting .. fast forward to the 3rd ladies testimony -its not the first time i have seen.heard this -but its a huge challenge to the goose bump gold dust angel feather seeking crowds - many who "think " they speak in tongues .. aren't doing so

ThomasJH said:

I was just giving out the news about my baptism on another Christian site I will not name, and many started getting "triggered" when I said I was Pentecostal and it that the baptism was in Jesus name.

So many called Pentecostalism "a cult from the early 1900s" and they called speaking in tongues "mass hysteria". I had no choice but to get hostile as I felt this was a personal attack against me and my faith.

Why do people hate this specific denomination so much?

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I'm not really a Pentecostal in terms of my beliefs, but I do go to a Pentecostal church, and I honestly can't blame the critics of the denomination. To a person who's just been exposed to Pentecostal worship, it usually looks like devilry, and to people who spend a bit more time around it, it often just looks fake. Pentecostals also seem to have generally higher standards than other sects, which has the unfortunate side effect of making more petty, judgmental people who will not think twice to blast a visitor for not speaking in tongues/having long hair/etc.

It's not been my experience, but I hear people bring it up all the time when I talk to them about my faith.

Arian Pentecostal Wannabe said:

I'm not really a Pentecostal in terms of my beliefs, but I do go to a Pentecostal church, and I honestly can't blame the critics of the denomination. To a person who's just been exposed to Pentecostal worship, it usually looks like devilry, and to people who spend a bit more time around it, it often just looks fake. Pentecostals also seem to have generally higher standards than other sects, which has the unfortunate side effect of making more petty, judgmental people who will not think twice to blast a visitor for not speaking in tongues/having long hair/etc.

It's not been my experience, but I hear people bring it up all the time when I talk to them about my faith.

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not to mention ongoing unrepentant practice of sin .. you know what i men ? speak in what you think is tongues on sunday .. watch porn on the pc on monday when no ones around .. christian in profession . self deceived in "practice "
{this is not a random statement there is a whol book of testimony this comment is based upon - just so ya know }

~Anastasia~ said:

From the first, Christians were baptized "in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit" ... often by triple immersion to underscore that formula. We may charitably disagree on many non-essentials, but Who God Is, is a very fundamental and important issue.

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If you care to read the scriptures, you will find only ONE reference to trinitarian baptism. Every other reference is in the name of Jesus.

My upbringing has been that you never form a doctrine from one verse of scripture.

Radagast said:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20a)

The Trinity is actually quite fundamental to Christian belief, which is why it is part of the Statement of Faith for this website.

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And what is the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit?

smithed64 said:

Preachers are prophets...all prophet means is someone who is called to deliver the inspired Word of God.

Latin prophēta < Greek prophḗtēs, equivalent to pro- pro-2 + -phētēs speaker, derivative of phánai to speak

The Bible is inspired and those who preach from it are ministers, evangelist, and or prophet. They speak the Word.

Now prophecy is a different gift altogether.
So is Dispensations, this isn't a gift of course. Just another thought on Eschatology. Many also don't believe in the dispensational thoughts.

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Ephesans 4:11 does not agree with you.

Jesus gave Apostles, PROPHETS, Evangelists, Shepherds and TEACHERS to the church to build it up and to equip the saints.

It does not say he gave the church prophets/teachers. They were both specific ministries with a specific purpose.

We make all sorts of blase explanations to avoid the fact that we have tried to build the church without prophets. It ain't going to work. Jesus gave us five ministries and therefore we need five to accomplish his purposes.

If we were really concerned about what Pentecostals do or any denomination does, we would have a heart attack because not one of them follow the teaching of scripture. What they all do is follow their interpretation of scripture.

For example, speaking in tongues is found in scripture.

Male ministers dressing up in a dress is not.

Praying is in scripture but spending millions on buildings is not.

Appointing Elders from within the fellowship is in scripture. Bringing one man from outside the fellowship to run things is not.

Calling Jesus Christ Lord is in scripture but calling a church leader father is not.

Giving to the poor is in scripture but giving to make ministers wealthy is not.

Waiting on your brother is in scripture but sitting at the top table because you are a minister is not.

Serving people is in scripture but lauding it over them is not.

I could go on ad infinitum with examples of what we don't do that is in scripture and what we do do that is not in scripture.

All this takes place because we spend most of our time competing with each other, rather than uniting with each other.

Back in the early 60s when the Holy Spirit moved on the historical churches in the UK with his power and truth, denominational facades began to crumble. Many towns started up a once a month Saturday night ecumenical praise. People from all denominations were in attendance. One month a middle age man sat next to me and we introduced ourselves. He was a catholic (????) and I was a charismatic. During the praise you could not pick out who was who. Our denominational affiliation was irrelevant.

Maybe we met in different locations on Sunday but on that night we were in unity of purpose. Not to promote our denomination but to promote the Lordship of Christ.

When Toronto hit the headlines I was hearing what nutcases they were with their antics. I decided that I would investigate it for myself to find out what the truth was. I heard over and over again how people had been revitalised in their faith as result of visiting Toronto. When John and Carol visited my town I went to the meetings.

Nothing about speaking in tongues or going down under the Spirit. The message was "The Father's Heart." The appeal at the end was "If you want to experience the Father's heart, come forward."

People did and when they were prayed for they went down under the Spirit's power. There was no pushing or shoving or giving the impression go down or else.

A couple of years later they visited again. This time they focused on the young people and John asked some adults to form a tunnel of fire out the front, which they did. He then told the young people if they wanted to get on board with God walk through the tunnel, which they did. Some of them walked right through and out the other end and others never made it to the end as they were struck by the power of God. No one touched them.

Some people called it the work of Satan but it is clear to me that Satan will NEVER do anything that is going to bring you into a more powerful relationship with God. Therefore, what happened had to be God as lives were changed for the better.

That means that people who called it the work of satan were blaspheming the Holy Spirit.