LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?

[Jane_Doe]

Ok. I'll talk with you tonight when you come back. I want to finish our discussion.

Looking forward to it-- though disclaimer I might be as late as tomorrow morning (I want to give this my full attention, and that's not possible right now with sick child).

 

[Ironhold]

The sources are listed behind the quotations.

The ellipses make it clear that you copied and pasted them from elsewhere. Given how many "Good Christians" see no problem with doctoring citations, what you posted is not accepted anymore.

 

[Ironhold]

I will not be continuing this conversation about demoninations with you.

Is it because you will not or because you can not?

 

[Ironhold]

That is not what the LDS site says.

Oh?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/salvation?lang=eng

 

[ToBeLoved]

The ellipses make it clear that you copied and pasted them from elsewhere. Given how many "Good Christians" see no problem with doctoring citations, what you posted is not accepted anymore.

So, you didn't even check to see if the citations are true, you are just looking for an excuse not to believe they may be.

Well if that's the way you are going to be, then I won't bother anymore finding anything in my conversations with you. Because you are not even checking and telling me I'm doctoring citations. Why not just say that you're too scared to find out if it is true. Be truthful. Maybe you do not want to know the truth.

But do not accuse me of something because of your own fear of truth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Oh?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/salvation?lang=eng

Given how many "Good Mormons" see no problem with doctoring citations, what you posted is not accepted anymore..

I'm waiting for Jane to come back. At least she doesn't run from things.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I said that you believe that unless someone believes that JS is a true prophet of Christ, that that person will not go to heaven.

You also believe that if one does not belong to the Mormon church, one will not go to heaven.

So, that was leaving a lot out when we were very specifically talking about salvation. I outlined in GREAT DETAIL what I believed one needed to go to heaven. You did not.

I got a spare minute

Our conversation we had earlier was specifically focused on your beliefs, not mine. You did not ask me to share my beliefs, and the rules of CF forbid me from doing so without being prompted. Everything on the list your wrote on the other thread is on my list as well, but my list is longer than yours and there additional things I believe that you do not.

Now, I will talk about my/Mormon views on salvation, since you asked and I am now allowed. To make sure nothing gets mis-communicated here, I'm going to break this response down into different parts, and make sure I didn't loose you along the way.

Part 1---

Salvation is being saved from 2 deaths, physical and spiritual, both brought on by the Fall of Adam. The conquering of both of these deaths was done by Christ and it is only through Him that we are saved. Useful link: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/salvation?lang=eng

Being saved from physical death, aka being resurrected and living forever, is a pretty straight forward concept. Because of Christ's resurrection, we will be resurrected automatically. Useful link: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/death-physical?lang=eng

Being saved from spiritual death: spiritual death is the separation of us from God. Our being saved from this death also happens because of Christ, but this redemption from sin does not happen automatically. Every individual must decide for themselves whether or not they accept Christ's Gospel, and be His disciple. The degree to which an individual accepts God is the extent in which God can be with them in the eternities. Useful link: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/death-spiritual?lang=eng.

End of Part 1.

Does that all make sense thus far TBL? Any questions/concerns?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Going with the short version here (this is from the Mormon POV, you can take it or leave it)--
Basically, in the early years of the Church ~200'ish, Christ's apostles were killed, leadership distorted, His people turned away from Him, teachings distorted, and His authority was lost. This is far from the first time people in mass have a abandoned God, but has happened several times throughout history (Noah, Moses, etc). Throughout the years, the lost church split into many different groups, each with different interruptions of God's words. When the time was right, God choose to restore the pieces of truth and authority that had been lost through a young farm boy name Joseph Smith.

Here's some more basic info: https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng

Clarifying a few points about the LDS view of the apostasy and restoration:
1) LDS do NOT believe that all truth was lost, but that some truths were lost and some falsehoods inserted.
2) LDS do NOT believe that people belonging to other churches (Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc) are not Christians and all not doing their best be followers of Christ. Rather, it is believed that these people are good Christians, following Christ the best they know how, and do MUCH Good in the world.

If around the turn of the 3rd century a widespread apostasy occurred, then we should be able to find that what was being said in the 2nd century by figures such as Ignatius, Justin, Polycarp, and Irenaeus differs substantially from the writings of Hippolytus, Cyprian, et al.

As someone who has spent a lot of time with their nose in the writings of the fathers, especially the apostolic fathers, I have been unable to see where and how and when such an apostasy supposedly took place.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

ellen white and sda teach that under Emperor Constintine christianity became corrupted and this resulted in the Catholic Church (you can add Orthodox Church in here as well).

Sda also teach that other Protestants do not have the entire truth and that ellen white was send by God as his final day prophetess to reveal this forgotten truth to mankind and more importantly Christendom. In essence it's the same as Mormons, JW's. Interestingly all these cults were formed in the same time period in the US and each can be traced back to the freemasons.

God bless

LOL--Thanks for the history lesson---just because we worship on another day does not mean we think the rest of Christendom is corrupted and lost!! Somethings are a mater of salvation, others not. Yes, history is history--Constantine did declare a law for Sunday observance--that is not to say you're all going to hell!!! Like I said, there are several denominations out there who also believe in the Sabbath--not just us-- Mormons and JW's do not. No---we have nothing to do with the Freemasons and do not believe in secret societies, gestures or handshakes--the only thing we are to do in secret is pray and do good for others.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Being saved from spiritual death: spiritual death is the separation of us from God. Our being saved from this death also happens because of Christ, but this redemption from sin does not happen automatically. Every individual must decide for themselves whether or not they accept Christ's Gospel, and be His disciple. The degree to which an individual accepts God is the extent in which God can be with them in the eternities. Useful link: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/death-spiritual?lang=eng.

End of Part 1.

Does that all make sense thus far TBL? Any questions/concerns?

Well this part is definately different from Christianity.

We agree that spiritual death is separation between us and God. However, when we receive salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ we are justified by Him (made clean of all sin- past and future). That is why if you watched that short 2 minute movie I put up yesterday when it was time for the one guy to be judged, Jesus stands in His place. That is exactly how it is.

Jesus is Our Advocate
1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

So your sentence
The degree to which an individual accepts God is the extent in which God can be with them in the eternities. is not the same. Now what Christ does give is Crowns and extra heavenly blessings. But everyone of His Children is the heir to His Kingdom.

The way it is in Christianity is on Judgement Day you either stand on your own merit OR Christ stands in for you. So salvation is sure.

But day to day to keep in faith, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit who is ALWAYS with us. He prays for us when we do not know what to pray for. He teaches us truth and the spiritual things of God. Convicts us of our sin. The Holy Spirit with our spirit confesses that we are Christ's Own. He is the downpayment of our inheritance in Christ Jesus until the Day of Redemption.

So we have God in us, helping us and convict us of our sin unto repentance.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23.

Not us trying to be like God.

But God's Word does say that we will be held accountable for each word we speak and each thing we do. But that does not mean loosing eternity. I think that is where the crowns and blessings come in.

 

[Jane_Doe]

We agree that spiritual death is separation between us and God. However, when we receive salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ we are justified by Him (made clean of all sin- past and future). That is why if you watched that short 2 minute movie I put up yesterday when it was time for the one guy to be judged, Jesus stands in His place. That is exactly how it is.

Jesus is Our Advocate
1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

So your sentence
The degree to which an individual accepts God is the extent in which God can be with them in the eternities. is not the same. Now what Christ does give is Crowns and extra heavenly blessings. But everyone of His Children is the heir to His Kingdom.

The way it is in Christianity is on Judgement Day you either stand on your own merit OR Christ stands in for you. So salvation is sure.

But day to day to keep in faith, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit who is ALWAYS with us. He prays for us when we do not know what to pray for. He teaches us truth and the spiritual things of God. Convicts us of our sin. The Holy Spirit with our spirit confesses that we are Christ's Own. He is the downpayment of our inheritance in Christ Jesus until the Day of Redemption.

So we have God in us, helping us and convict us of our sin unto repentance.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23.

Not us trying to be like God.

But God's Word does say that we will be held accountable for each word we speak and each thing we do. But that does not mean loosing eternity. I think that is where the crowns and blessings come in.

Actually, we have much in agreement about what you posted here- I was just having faith & repentance & atonement being "Part 2" of my answer I'll work on typing that up. In the mean time, any more question on Part 1?

 

[TravelerFarAwayFromHome]

Going with the short version here (this is from the Mormon POV, you can take it or leave it)--
Basically, in the early years of the Church ~200'ish, Christ's apostles were killed, leadership distorted, His people turned away from Him, teachings distorted, and His authority was lost. This is far from the first time people in mass have a abandoned God, but has happened several times throughout history (Noah, Moses, etc). Throughout the years, the lost church split into many different groups, each with different interruptions of God's words. When the time was right, God choose to restore the pieces of truth and authority that had been lost through a young farm boy name Joseph Smith.

Here's some more basic info: https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng

Clarifying a few points about the LDS view of the apostasy and restoration:
1) LDS do NOT believe that all truth was lost, but that some truths were lost and some falsehoods inserted.
2) LDS do NOT believe that people belonging to other churches (Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc) are not Christians and all not doing their best be followers of Christ. Rather, it is believed that these people are good Christians, following Christ the best they know how, and do MUCH Good in the world.

so if Mormon still believe other Christians are Christians

then why do I hear Mormon preaches only Mormons would get to go to Mormon heaven?

and that is why Mormon parents disown their children who becomes Evangelicals?

 

[Jane_Doe]

(Part 2 of my response, discussing Mormon salvation beliefs. I’ll respond to your post #131 in my next post).

Accepting Christ and being His disciple consists of several parts.

The first part is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. This includes acknowledging Him as our Lord & Savior, and that we need Him. Faith is about having a deep sense of trust and reliance in Him: that He is there for us, that we should follow Him. Salvation cannot happen without faith in Christ.

The second part is repentance. Repentance starts with acknowledging that something is sinful (sinful being defined as something which separates us from God). Repentance is about turning away from sin and towards God. Once we acknowledge that our actions have been sinful, it is not a simple “I’m sorry” which makes it all better- because God is infinitely just and cannot look on sin with the least amount of allowance. When there is wrong doing, there must also be restitution, which is where Christ’s sacrifice comes in.

Christ’s atonement: to “atone” means to pay the price for sin. Christ, through His suffering the final day of His life, pays the price of our sins. Christ, as the Son of God, whom never sinned in this life, was uniquely qualified to do this atonement. He paid the price for the sins of the whole world (past, present, future), and makes our scarlet sins be as white as snow. Come the Day of Judgment, Christ stands as our advocator to the Father, so we can be “at one ment” with God.

The only thing which limits the power of Christ’s atonement is our refusal to accept Him. If we do not wish to repent of our sins, but love them more than God, Christ cannot force us to accept Him.

Any more questions about Part 2? (I'm already working on responding to post #131). After that, Part 3 will be on baptism and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jane_Doe]

so if Mormon still believe other Christians are Christians

then why do I hear Mormon preaches only Mormons would get to go to Mormon heaven?

and that is why Mormon parents disown their children who becomes Evangelicals?

Hi TravelerFarAwayFromHome,

I'm actually going to answer these specific questions in a few posts (I'm breaking down my discussion about Mormon views of into bite-size pieces). I'll let you know the post number when I get to these questions. In the mean time, let me know if you have any questions about Parts 1 or 2 thus far.

 

[ToBeLoved]

(Part 2 of my response, discussing Mormon salvation beliefs. I’ll respond to your post #131 in my next post).

The second part is repentance. Repentance starts with acknowledging that something is sinful (sinful being defined as something which separates us from God). Repentance is about turning away from sin and towards God. Once we acknowledge that our actions have been sinful, it is not a simple “I’m sorry” which makes it all better- because God is infinitely just and cannot look on sin with the least amount of allowance. When there is wrong doing, there must also be restitution, which is where Christ’s sacrifice comes in.

So what is the restititution that goes beyond 'I'm sorry' that you have to do?

 

[Ironhold]

Given how many "Good Mormons" see no problem with doctoring citations, what you posted is not accepted anymore..

I'm waiting for Jane to come back. At least she doesn't run from things.

Your dodge won't work here.

You said the church website said X, and I showed you that it says no such thing.

Deal with it.

 

[Ironhold]

then why do I hear Mormon preaches only Mormons would get to go to Mormon heaven?

[citation needed]

and that is why Mormon parents disown their children who becomes Evangelicals?

The church has told parents not to.

 

[Jane_Doe]

So what is the restititution that goes beyond 'I'm sorry' that you have to do?

Great question.

An "I'm sorry" without Christ's atonement still leaves you paying the unsurmountable price at the Judgement Day. A person must accept Christ as their Savior & His atonement.

Beyond that, steps in repentance are--
Feel a genuine sincere remorse for the sin
Confessing it. For most sins this is simply to the Lord, but sometimes other people (like if it was criminal act).
Turn your heart away from the sin, abandoning it (this is done with the Lord's power).
If applicable, restitution. For example, give something back you stole.
Go and sin no more.

Important note: for the vast majority of people, repentance is an continually on going process (we mess up again). Repentance is also facilitated and only made possible because of God-- we can no way to it on our own.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I got to go for tonight, but will respond to any more questions and write more in the morning.

 

[Jane_Doe]

(My promised response to post #131—)

However, when we receive salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ we are justified by Him (made clean of all sin- past and future). That is why if you watched that short 2 minute movie I put up yesterday when it was time for the one guy to be judged, Jesus stands in His place. That is exactly how it is.

Jesus is Our Advocate

1 John 2:1

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I would also say that it is through Christ’s atonement that our sins are justified and Christ is our advocate, as I explained in Part 2. Do you think we are on the same or different wavelength? How so?

So your sentence

The degree to which an individual accepts God is the extent in which God can be with them in the eternities. is not the same. Now what Christ does give is Crowns and extra heavenly blessings. But everyone of His Children is the heir to His Kingdom.

The way it is in Christianity is on Judgement Day you either stand on your own merit OR Christ stands in for you. So salvation is sure.

One way in which mainstream Christianity and Mormonism do differ is that mainstream Christianity views the afterlife and a Heaven/Hell binary. Mormonism on the other hand has a spectrum, because God loves all His children and wants to give the most He can. Some people flat out refuse Christ (no crown), other partially accept Christ but still love some of their sins (small crown), other forsake their sins and fully embrace Christ (fully crown). I was going to talk more about this spectrum in a later part.

But day to day to keep in faith, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit who is ALWAYS with us. He prays for us when we do not know what to pray for. He teaches us truth and the spiritual things of God. Convicts us of our sin. The Holy Spirit with our spirit confesses that we are Christ's Own. He is the downpayment of our inheritance in Christ Jesus until the Day of Redemption.

So we have God in us, helping us and convict us of our sin unto repentance.


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23.

Not us trying to be like God.

But God's Word does say that we will be held accountable for each word we speak and each thing we do. But that does not mean loosing eternity. I think that is where the crowns and blessings come in.

I’ll talk about the Holy Spirit tomorrow morning in Part 3.