WHY DO MANY PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE THAT THE OLD COVENANT IS STILL IN EFFECT ?

[dwb001]

Because some covenants of the eternal God are conditional (e.g., Ge 17, Ex 19-24), not eternal.
They terminate when the conditions are violated.

Like what? Narrow your references down a bit. What conditions?

And a condition would not even invalidate the covenant. In fact the conditions are of no effect without the covenant to give structure to the conditions. In fact the conditions are an integral part of the covenant.

 

[Clare73]

Like what? Narrow your references down a bit. What conditions?

And a condition would not even invalidate the covenant. In fact the conditions are of no effect without the covenant to give structure to the conditions. In fact the conditions are an integral part of the covenant.

So then we agree, some are conditional.

 

[dwb001]

So then we agree, some are conditional.

Nope... there may be some conditions though. And narrow down your references.

 

[Clare73]

Nope... there may be some conditions though. And narrow down your references.

Ge 17 covenant - "As for me," 17:4, gives God's promise; "As for you," 17:9, gives the condition to be fulfilled to receive God's promise; i.e., total consecration, symbolized by circumcision.

Ex 19-24 covenant - God's promise: to be Israel's God (protector, guarantor of her blessed destiny); condition to be fulfilled to receive God's promise: Israel's total consecration to the Lord as his people (kingdom, who live by his rule and serve his purposes in history), Dt 26:17, 7:12, 2 Kgs 21:8.

 

[dwb001]

Ge 17 covenant - "As for me," 17:4, gives God's promise; "As for you," 17:9, gives the condition to be fulfilled to receive God's promise; i.e., total consecration, symbolized by circumcision.

That is not a covenant-condition situation. It is a part of the covenant. Not conditional... but with steps.

Ex 19-24 covenant - God's promise: to be Israel's God (protector, guarantor of her blessed destiny); condition to be fulfilled to receive God's promise: Israel's total consecration to the Lord as his people (kingdom, who live by his rule and serve his purposes in history), Dt 26:17, 7:12, 2 Kgs 21:8.

Wow a covenant in one book with the conditions in another book... maybe not a convincing argument.

 

[Clare73]

That is not a covenant-condition situation. It is a part of the covenant. Not conditional... but with steps.
Wow a covenant in one book with the conditions in another book... maybe not a convincing argument.

Seems you have a little more homework to do on Biblical covenants.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are still rainbows, right?
So some part of old covenants still stand.

Yes, although I personally rainbows rather than floods.

 

[dwb001]

Seems you have a little more homework to do on Biblical covenants.

No... I think you might though.

 

[dwb001]

Yes, although I personally rainbows rather than floods.

So old covenants are still in effect.

 

[Clare73]

No... I think you might though.

Ge 17 covenant - "As for me," 17:4, gives God's promise; "As for you," 17:9, gives the condition to be fulfilled to receive God's promise.

Seems text is also a challenge for you.
"As for me" states what God will do in the covenant, conditioned on what they must do, "As for you," in order to receive God's blessings.

 

[ralliann]

Ge 17 covenant - "As for me," 17:4, gives God's promise; "As for you," 17:9, gives the condition to be fulfilled to receive God's promise.

Seems text is also a challenge for you.
"As for me" states what God will do in the covenant, conditioned on what they must do, "As for you," in order to receive God's blessings.

It seems to me, what God says is always conditional, /unless or until He swears an oath.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Which immutabilty to establish all spoken to Abraham occured when he offered Isaac his son.

Until that time it was conditional on his faith.

Abraham believed God, and obeyed him, in the fullness of faith. All God spoke to Abraham

There is no principle regarding all covenants. Each was given on its own terms.

I think this is why:
1) covenant theology is important (especially today)
2) The establishing of a covenant/covenants with an oath is important.

Immutabilty, unconditional is the result of an oath, sworn by God. Too often we make what God says apart from an oath, an absolute promise. Making God swearing an oath moot, without application. The oath God swear to Abraham immutable. But there are two covenants. One concerning earthly things, the other concerning heavenly things. These two get confuded and without application.

 

[dwb001]

Ge 17 covenant - "As for me," 17:4, gives God's promise; "As for you," 17:9, gives the condition to be fulfilled to receive God's promise.

Verse 9 is still part of the covenant. You have a contract mentality not a covenant one.

Seems text is also a challenge for you.
"As for me" states what God will do in the covenant, conditioned on what they must do, "As for you," in order to receive God's blessings.

So you don't understand how a covenant works... OK.

 

[ralliann]

Verse 9 is still part of the covenant. You have a contract mentality not a covenant one.

Could you please explain the difference?

So you


don't understand how a covenant works... OK.

And again here?

Genesis 17: 9
Gen 17: 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

An interesting thing here.
The Generation that came out, did not keep the Abrahamic covenant

Jos 5:3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised:
3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

 

[dwb001]

Could you please explain the difference?

Contract focuses on outcome and covenant focuses on persons.

And again here?

Genesis 17: 9
Gen 17: 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

An interesting thing here.
The Generation that came out, did not keep the Abrahamic covenant

Jos 5:3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised:
3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

Right... so man is bad at keeping his promises. Does the covenant become null and void? No. But a contract would be.

 

[ralliann]

Contract focuses on outcome and covenant focuses on persons.

This is not clarifying to me. focusing on persons is scriptural, beginning with Abraham. The outcome is what God swear to him.

Right... so man is bad at keeping his promises. Does the covenant become null and void?

No, because the promises are spoken first to Abraham. Why would God not fulfill what he said to him? And Abraham died in faith. He cannot lose it in unfaithfulness.

No. But a contract would be.

Depends on what the contract contains.

 

[Clare73]

It seems to me, what God says is always conditional, /unless or until He swears an oath.

Interesting.

No oath was sworn to Noah (Ge 9:8-17), Abraham (Ge 15:9-21), Phinehas (Nu 25:10-31), David (2 Sa 7:5-16) or Israel (Jer 31:31-34).

Would that mean that the promise to Phinehas, or the promise to David or
the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34) in Jesus' blood (1 Co 11:25) entered into through saving faith, were all subject to termination?

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Which immutabilty to establish all spoken to Abraham occured when he offered Isaac his son.
Until that time it was conditional on his faith.
Abraham believed God, and obeyed him, in the fullness of faith. All God spoke to Abraham
I think this is why:
1) covenant theology is important (especially today)
2) The establishing of a covenant/covenants with an oath is important.
Immutabilty, unconditional is the result of an oath, sworn by God. Too often we make what God says apart from an oath, an absolute promise. Making God swearing an oath moot, without application. The oath God swear to Abraham immutable. But there are two covenants. One concerning earthly things, the other concerning heavenly things. These two get confuded and without application.

 

[dwb001]

This is not clarifying to me. focusing on persons is scriptural, beginning with Abraham. The outcome is what God swear to him.

No, because the promises are spoken first to Abraham. Why would God not fulfill what he said to him? And Abraham died in faith. He cannot lose it in unfaithfulness.

Depends on what the contract contains.

Nope... once a contractual obligation is missed the entire contract can be declared void.

 

[ralliann]

Interesting.

No oath was sworn to Noah (Ge 9:8-17), Abraham (Ge 15:9-21), Phinehas (Nu 25:10-31), David (2 Sa 7:5-16) or Israel (Jer 31:31-34).

These are IMO regarding the earthly things this world this life. which remain until this earth and this world is no more. Temporal.
The Lord will not repent....God can turn back from a thing. Though God does not repent as do men, he can and has repented (changed his mind, or turned back. David attempted with God to do concerning his son that was to die, in the sin with Uriah's wife).

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Jud 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

Would that mean that the New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34) in Jesus blood (1 Co 11:25) entered into through saving faith is subject to termination?

The covenant made in Jesus blood is the kingdom not of this world, this life. Which were shadows, examples etc. for the heavenly eternal inheritance.
Two covenants Clare.
Earthly inheritance, temporal, worldly.
Celestial inheritance, eternal, heavenly.
The faithful in the earthly had a portion in both, God's Israel the firstborn, a portion above his brethren.
What would be the point of God swearing an oath if everything he spoke to Abraham was immutable without it?
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

 

[ralliann]

Nope... once a contractual obligation is missed the entire contract can be declared void.

This almost speaks like we die in Adam teaching type contract. man's faithfulness
It depends on
1. The specifics of the contract
2. The persons involved in the contract

God's faithfulness....
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[Clare73]

These are IMO regarding the earthly things this world this life. which remain until this earth and this world is no more. Temporal.
The Lord will not repent....God can turn from a thing. Though God does not repent as do men, he can and has repented (changed his mind, as David attempted with God to do concerning his son that was to die).
Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Jud 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The covenant made in Jesus blood is the kingdom not of this world, this life.

Doesn't Jesus say
the kingdom of God is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:28). It was set up at the first coming of Christ.
It being not of this world (Jn 18:36), but of the spiritual world, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21).
It is everlasting (Lk 1:33) and never-ending (as prophesied in Da 2:44).

It being everlasting, it is for all time as well as eternity.

So would the new covenant of this earthly spiritual life, made without an oath, be subject to termination after entering it?

The following repeated in post #100.

The covenant made in Jesus blood is the kingdom not of this world, this life.

But Jesus said the kingdom of God was here now, before his shed blood.

Which were shadows, examples etc. for the heavenly eternal inheritance.

Shadows and examples (sacrifices, defilements, cleansings, feasts, etc.) are the physical representations of the spiritual.
The kingdom of God now spiritually within is not a physical representation of another (spiritual) kingdom to come.
That is the reverse of God's Biblical pattern, which is: the physical represents the spiritual, not the other way around.

The spiritual kingdom of God which Jesus brought at his first coming is the promised (spiritual) kingdom of God. It is the only kingdom of God. There is no other.
A future earthly kingdom was the false misunderstanding of the OT Jews, and which caused them to reject their Messianic king and his spiritual kingdom.

Just as the promised everlasting possession (Ge 17:8, 48:4) of physical land was a promise of spiritual (heavenly) land (Heb 11:13-16,
so also the promised physical Messianic kingdom of God was a promise of the spiritual kingdom of God, brought in by the Messiah at his first coming.
There is no other kingdom of God. The NT kingdom of God (within the people of God, the church) is the fulfillment of God's promises thereof.

Two covenants Clare,
Earthly inheritance, temporal, worldly.
Celestial inheritance, eternal, heavenly.

The Old Covenant promises were types of their fulfillment in the New Covenant.
The New Covenant kingdom is not celestial, it is the kingdom of God now (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20), as well as for all eternity.