Why do creationists insist that the theory of evolution is inherently atheistic?

[Lethe]

Hey, you know there are like 100-200 different authors that go into text books?

Yet the message is so much more coherent...

 

[super animator]

Hey, you know there are like 100-200 different authors that go into text books?

Yet the message is so much more coherent...

I pretty much sure that was done in shorter time span with authors knowing each other than the bible, so that an apples an oranges comparison.

 

[KWCrazy]

The bible doesn't "clearly" state anything.

Actually, it clearly states many things. Apparently even those who intentionally misrepresent the Bible agree, because they can't seem to find verses to back up their claims.

 

[Lethe]

Actually, it clearly states many things.

So clearly, in fact, that there are tens of major denominations of Christianity who disagree on core tenants of the faith, and hundreds of minor ones.

 

[ThouShaltNotPoe]

So clearly, in fact, that there are tens of major denominations of Christianity who disagree on core tenants of the faith, and hundreds of minor ones.

And KW complains about all of them getting the Bible "wrong". I guess that "agreement" is more difficult to reach than he thinks.

 

[Lethe]

I think we're still awaiting for an explanation as to the clarity of the all-powerful, all-knowing, God's message.

Presumably this all-powerful, all-knowing being knows exactly what information would be compelling to an individual, and is powerful enough to deliver that information. But oddly has not. That demands an explanation.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think we're still awaiting for an explanation as to the clarity of the all-powerful, all-knowing, God's message.

Presumably this all-powerful, all-knowing being knows exactly what information would be compelling to an individual, and is powerful enough to deliver that information. But oddly has not. That demands an explanation.

1 John 5:13 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Nineteen one-syllable words, explaining the Bible in terms a child can understand.

 

[mathetes123]

So clearly, in fact, that there are tens of major denominations of Christianity who disagree on core tenants of the faith, and hundreds of minor ones.

Which specific major denominations would you be referring to and over what core tenets of the faith?

 

[Lethe]

Whether or not you are I believe something is a "core tenet," is somewhat irrelevant in light of the fact that the divisions are obviously deep enough to merit a multiplicity of different denominations. Who am I to tell someone else how serious a theological disagreement is? I'm just observing that there are major schisms.

Here are some divisions I've noted.

Papal authority.
The legitimacy of the second coming of Christ in the New World, eg the LDS testimony
Transubstantiation
Salvation: works v. grace
Creation: A whole gamut of views exist on this.
Tribulation: Pre/post tribulation
Trinity: interpretations, and the broader trinitarian/unitarian interpretations
Handling of serpents, a requirement?
Speaking in tongues, legitimate or crazy?

 

[ThouShaltNotPoe]

Originally Posted by Lethe
"I think we're still awaiting for an explanation as to the clarity of the all-powerful, all-knowing, God's message."

"Presumably this all-powerful, all-knowing being knows exactly what information would be compelling to an individual, and is powerful enough to deliver that information. But oddly has not. That demands an explanation." --- Lethe

1 John 5:13 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Nineteen one-syllable words, explaining the Bible in terms a child can understand.

AV1611VET ignores Lethe's point. SOME of the Bible's teachings are very simple. MANY are not.

Lethe's viewpoint is quite understandable. Even Jesus' disciples complained to Jesus, "Why do you speak in such confusing parables?" They couldn't figure out what he meant. How did Jesus respond? He told them that he INTENTIONALLY spoke in difficult ways in order to PREVENT understanding.

“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.

“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13​

Why would Jesus say that?

“And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is NOT given.” Matt 13:10-11​

Jesus was very clear: "Many are called but FEW ARE CHOSEN." Not many were meant to understand!

Even many Christians tend to ignore Jesus words here. They feel uncomfortable about the Bible teaching of ELECTION and Jesus' statements that only a small number would accept the Gospel and "take up one's cross daily and follow him" and experience "the fellowship of his sufferings." You won't hear many of these teachings from the average TV prosperity preacher---nor even the average pastor. "Many are called but few are CHOSEN." Here again the Bible's teachings conflict with the cherished TRADITIONS of many who call themselves "Christian".



.

 

[Lethe]

Boy, that sure was one clear revelation.

 

[Tomk80]

Whether or not you are I believe something is a "core tenet," is somewhat irrelevant in light of the fact that the divisions are obviously deep enough to merit a multiplicity of different denominations. Who am I to tell someone else how serious a theological disagreement is? I'm just observing that there are major schisms.

Here are some divisions I've noted.

Papal authority.
The legitimacy of the second coming of Christ in the New World, eg the LDS testimony
Transubstantiation
Salvation: works v. grace
Creation: A whole gamut of views exist on this.
Tribulation: Pre/post tribulation
Trinity: interpretations, and the broader trinitarian/unitarian interpretations
Handling of serpents, a requirement?
Speaking in tongues, legitimate or crazy?

Also:
What is the extent of free will
Are people elected to salvation or not
Personal interpretation of scripture versus deference to authorities
Sola scriptura or not

I don't think I have come across a single principle in Christianity that wasn't contested in one way or another.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I don't think I have come across a single principle in Christianity that wasn't contested in one way or another.

Because, contrary to popular belief, christians do not blindly accept everything they hear without thinking simply because "The Bible says so". Different aspects of our religion are often heavily analysed and discussed.

This discuss seems to have been promptd by Lethe saying:

My math books are clear. My physics books are clear. My programming books are clear. My economics books are clear (if an incomplete field). My sheet music is clear. My non-fiction books are clear. My fiction books are clear.

The bible? No.

But he is wrong on two accounts: the first is that many textbooks and documents are not clear at all. They are constantly being revised, updated and discussed, and they often disagree with one another. I myself know of several books and studies on human evolution which have can't agree on a few basic things - such as what traits separate hominins from other apes.

The second reason is that many people do not understand the Bible in its historical context. They read it as if it were one single book, which is isn't. Centuries may have passed between one book and another.

Of course, the fact that scientific studies are not always clear and don't always agree isn't a weakness - they're being methodical. The same goes for religion.

 

[Lethe]

They are constantly being revised, updated and discussed, and they often disagree with one another.

Would you care to give an example of STEM field book in disagreement with another?

In particular undergrad textbooks and not grad stuff at the edge of the field.

 

[Tomk80]

Because, contrary to popular belief, christians do not blindly accept everything they hear without thinking simply because "The Bible says so". Different aspects of our religion are often heavily analysed and discussed.

Did I ever say otherwise? KWCrazy made the claim that the bible states many things clearly. I just countered, together with Lethe, that I haven't come across a single doctrine within Christianity that has not been contested in one way or another.

This discuss seems to have been promptd by Lethe saying:

But he is wrong on two accounts: the first is that many textbooks and documents are not clear at all. They are constantly being revised, updated and discussed, and they often disagree with one another. I myself know of several books and studies on human evolution which have can't agree on a few basic things - such as what traits separate hominins from other apes.

The second reason is that many people do not understand the Bible in its historical context. They read it as if it were one single book, which is isn't. Centuries may have passed between one book and another.

Of course, the fact that scientific studies are not always clear and don't always agree isn't a weakness - they're being methodical. The same goes for religion.

Sure, not every textbook is as clearly written as it should be, and textbooks can disagree with each other. I would still argue that the disagreement around these things is a lot less than the interpretation of the bible among Christians.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Would you care to give an example of STEM field book in disagreement with another?

Too vague. STEM textbooks cover everything from string theory to crohn's disease to internal combustion engines.

Sure, not every textbook is as clearly written as it should be, and textbooks can disagree with each other. I would still argue that the disagreement around these things is a lot less than the interpretation of the bible among Christians.

And that's simply an opinion. Do you have anything to back it up?

 

[Tomk80]

Too vague. STEM textbooks cover everything from string theory to crohn's disease to internal combustion engines.


And that's simply an opinion. Do you have anything to back it up?

All of my evolution and biology textbooks agree that Neo-Darwinism is the main way evolution functions, not Lamarckism. All of my biology and biochemistry textbooks agree on how the ATP / ADP cycle works. All of my physics textbooks agree on mechanics, electromagnetism etc. The core facts we have discovered about this world are not disputed in any of these textbooks. All my chemistry textbooks agree exactly on how chemical reactions work. The list goes on and on.

Are you seriously arguing that such basic knowledge of the world around us is disputed between textbooks?

This in contract to the interpretations of core doctrines from the bible by Christians.

 

[Split Rock]

1 John 5:13 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Nineteen one-syllable words, explaining the Bible in terms a child can understand.

Really? Read that pasage to a child who is not Christian, and then answer his next question: "But I don't have the Son, why am I alive?"

Thanks for the case in point.

 

[Split Rock]

Actually, it clearly states many things. Apparently even those who intentionally misrepresent the Bible agree, because they can't seem to find verses to back up their claims.

Really? I have plenty for you.

What is the "split" during the time of Peleg? ".. his days was the earth divided” (Gen. 10:25)

What did God mean when he said Adam would die if he ate the forbidden fruit? He sure didn't die. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:17).

The entire Book of Revelations. What does any of it mean?

I got plenty more if you like.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

All of my evolution and biology textbooks agree that Neo-Darwinism is the main way evolution functions, not Lamarckism.

Unless you count the relatively new field of hereditary epigenetics or neo-Lamarkianism.

All of my physics textbooks agree on mechanics, electromagnetism etc.

There are several basic contradictions in physics. If there weren't we wouldn't not need a "theory of everything" to try and unite the different theories.

This in contract to the interpretations of core doctrines from the bible by Christians.

Christians do agree on a few core concepts, such as those listed in the Nicene Creed.

Since I suspect this will soon spiral into yet another "science good, religion bad" argument, my two basic points are simply:

a) That in both science and christianity people frequently disagree and revise ideas and concepts
b) These disgareements and revisals are not necessarily a bad thing, but a sign that both groups are searching for the truth rather than agreeing with one another just to avoid conflict