Why do Christians have trouble with accepting Evolution?

[EastCoastRemnant]

And yet the only example of the Bible, preserved as a library of sacred literature, is by the Christian Church. The same Christian Church being regularly accused as false, "denominations", worthless, etc.

God can do many things. What God can do, is a very different thing than what God will do or has done.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes God can use even ungodly men to accomplish His purpose... the OT is full of examples.

What's your point?

 

[PapaZoom]

That doesn't work, Papa. In the Bible, God is granted a deep emotional life, and so his emotional states are seen as continually changing. For example, his feelings about creation certainly underwent a drastic change, Gen. 6:6. His feelings about Israel certainly changed. Christ is God, and Christ obviously experienced changing emotional states, going from pleasure to displeasure, etc. Emotions are part of oneself, so when they change, yes, you change. So, putting al the pieces together form Scripture, God appears to be a living personality and therefore a synthesis of consistency and change.

First, God could not possibly have been surprised about what happened after the fall. Jesus was after all crucified from the foundations of the world. I doubt God has feelings in the same way we have feelings. I agree God is a living personality and after all we are made in his image. But what you describe above isn't really addressing immutability.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Fixating on what a "fact" is by one definition or another, only speaks of the truth, if one is fixed on the truth in the first place...which of course, one cannot even begin to do without knowing the beginning and the end. Your little patch of road, does not tell all, nor does it speak with the authority that you attribute to yourself. You should be asking questions - not making claims.

But he said he went to school and everything to be an authority for us... ... shouldn't that count for something?

 

[Hoghead1]

Yes, that is a good definition of Change, Papa. However, I have pointed out biblical passages where God's emotions change from what they were to another kind of emotion. Didn't I provide you an example from Malachi 3:5-7? Yes, God does persist in a fixity of purpose, and this is precisely why God changes. For example, God always seeks to maximize beauty. But what may be an appropriate kind of beauty in one situation may not be in another. God is always loving and enjoys an direct empathic response to any and all creaturely feeling. But God's feelings change as do those of the creatures. Think of yourself, for a moment. In my case, I have been a lifelong train buff and am immutable in that respect. But now that I have a real steam locomotive to operate, I have changed and am a very different train buff than I was twenty years ago. The same holds for God. God is a living personality, and a living personality is a synthesis of consistency and change.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The way I see it, it's not the Bible that can't be trusted. We can't trust ourselves. We all too often get in the way. Ask someone if baptism is required for salvation and you get several different answers. If the Bible were so clear, this shouldn't happen. But the truth is, we all bring a bit of bias and background into our understanding of the Biblical text. It's not important what "I" think the Bible is saying nor is it important what my pastor says. What did the original author intend for his audience to understand? That's the key question. And in order to fully understand the answer to that question, one has to look beyond the biblical text. I'm talking about understanding the times in which the text was written; its idioms and how words interpreted ideas. A lot of background information is often needed to wrestle out the truth of what is conveyed in the Bible. I am not a biblical literalist. I want to take the Bible accurately. And that often requires some deep study work. Agree?

We could also understand the authors Character of Love and filter everything through it.... for the greatest of these is charity (love)

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

No, that really isn't accurate, Geralt. Evolution became a central scientific understanding because the hard evidence demolished the natural theology that was in vogue at the time. It is true that science has a very limited window into the past. So some degree of speculation is always caller for. Therefore , science doesn't deal in absolute truths. It deals in probabilities of being right. The same is also true of right-wing Christian beliefs. If nobody was around to directly observe the Big Bang, nobody was around to see God create the world in six days, either. The trouble with creation-science re people is that they refuse to acknowledge they also are going on speculation, not absolute truth based on absolute proof.

So you agree that evolution is as much a religion of faith as Christianity then? Which, being the case, makes one an idol. You can't serve two masters...

 

[Hoghead1]

Papa, I am addressing immutability in the exact sense this term is used in theology and philosophy. The fact is , the Bible depicts God's feelings as changing, going from joy in creation to disappointment. Does God know the future ahead of time? This is a tricky issue. I don't believe in predestination, since it denies human freedom and makes God the author of evil. So, no, I don't think God definitely knows ahead of time what is going to happen. God does not decide for us. We have to make our own decisions, and the future is open-ended until we do so. Incidentally, there is more than one passage in the Bible that speak of God's knowledge of the future as iffy. I don't think predestination is a biblical doctrine.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Yes, that is a good definition of Change, Papa. However, I have pointed out biblical passages where God's emotions change from what they were to another kind of emotion. Didn't I provide you an example from Malachi 3:5-7? Yes, God does persist in a fixity of purpose, and this is precisely why God changes. For example, God always seeks to maximize beauty. But what may be an appropriate kind of beauty in one situation may not be in another. God is always loving and enjoys an direct empathic response to any and all creaturely feeling. But God's feelings change as do those of the creatures. Think of yourself, for a moment. In my case, I have been a lifelong train buff and am immutable in that respect. But now that I have a real steam locomotive to operate, I have changed and am a very different train buff than I was twenty years ago. The same holds for God. God is a living personality, and a living personality is a synthesis of consistency and change.

What an utterly blasphemous statement... "because I am, therefore God is also".. brother, you better have a good heart to heart with the Spirit for that.

 

[Hoghead1]

Absolutely incorrect, EastCoast, and somewhat insulting, I might add. The fact that both science and religion require leaps of faith at times does not mean they are the same thing. Also you seem to be using the term "religion" in some sort of pejorative sense. I find that irrational and also offensive. I earned by doctorate through the university's Department of Religion and Jewish Studies.

 

[Hoghead1]

Well, brother, EastCoast, maybe you should do a bit better job of studying theology. For one thing, the biblical model of God is a highly anthropomorphic one. For another, all knowing is basically analogous knowing. We generalize from the familiar to the unfamiliar. Now if there is one thing we are most familiar with, it is human existence. So unless there is an analogy, a genuine likeness between ourselves and the rest of reality , including God, we haven't got an inkling what's going on.

 

[Hoghead1]

Yes we do, EastCoast. You would know that if you had carefully studied the material you should have. The fact of evolution in no way denies Christ. In the Christian mystical tradition, evolution calls from Christ. That ios also true in the writings of Pere Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit and major 20-the century thinker.

 

[Hoghead1]

David, I happen to believe that God works in and through evolution. Hence, I found you post insulting and inappropriate in a theological discussion group.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The theory of evolution says nothing about abiogenesis.

As I stated in a previous post, the position of this theory is ever changing...how convenient to drop aspects of the original theory which can easily be debunked... instead, just stick with examples of speciation, which is nothing special, and infer something greater by it... a very slick smoke and mirrors show.

How is this possible? By indoctrinating the young so they unquestioningly accept it.... in great numbers they hope to find legitimacy.... but in the end despair. Kinda reminds me of the third Reich...

... what was it Goebbels said...“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

 

[Hoghead1]

KW, you are going on a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible, which insists it has to be an inerrant geophysical witness. That is one way of interpreting scripture, but it is not the only way. I look at Scripture and I look at science and I have concluded that God did not intend Scripture to be an accurate geophysical witness.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

In the Christian mystical tradition, evolution calls from Christ. That ios also true in the writings of Pere Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit and major 20-the century thinker.

That's tells me all I need to know about your POV... nice talking with ya.

 

[SteveB28]

Please, explain it to me. Make a fleshy show of mans wisdom. Its really nothing more than that. You lack discernment as far as God is concerned, you deny his existence because that is foolishness to you, and you would rather glory in fleshy wisdom. Sure, it makes you sound wise, but in the end the bible has another word for those who deny Gods existence. The worst part is that you come to a Christian website, and argue all day, wasting your life in a meaningless debate, although you believe this life is all there is. Such a waste. I'll give you your moment of glory. Please answer your question and educate this layman.

It's quite simple. Please read carefully.

The theory of evolution STARTS with an a priori understanding that life exists on this planet, however that life came to be.

It THEN presents an explanation of the manner in which that life diversified over time.

That's it. It doesn't matter whether life arose spontaneously, or came here as a result of a meteor strike, or your preferred option of s supernatural event. Evolution is what occurs AFTER that.

 

[Hoghead1]

Yes, Extraneous, and so, too, was persecuting and condemning scientists because they didn't agree with the church, which is precisely what you appear to be doing on the forum.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I earned by doctorate through the university's Department of Religion and Jewish Studies.

I... I... I...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I don't think the problem Is that they heard about evolution. The issue is either.....the girls interpreted being told they came from Apes in meaning God didn't create them. Or the teacher said no God exists, which isn't allowed. However in places that accept evolution and are run by Christians, your not going to get talk that says God didn't make us because of evolution. Even in my secular college in an anthropology class, the point was made that evolution is not anti-religion by my teacher because there are many religious that accept it.

Nice of you to be so dismissive of my life and what I've witnessed....

 

[Hoghead1]

Yes, Extraneous, but you yourself are glorifying church fathers, essentially the Protestant Reformers. You are basing everything you say and believe about Scripture upon how they said Scripture should be understood. So, you are just as guilty.