Why do Christians have trouble with accepting Evolution?

[Extraneous]

Scientists don't think their science is holy, that is projection on your part. Scientists do think the truth is holy and try their best to find it out by checking and rechecking the evidence. This leads, of course, only to material truth, but it works in the arena in which it works, which is why we know the earth is billions of years old and all life is of common descent. The only opposition to this truth is on religious grounds, brought to us by those who assert scripture statements trump all other evidence.

That is, of course, not a logical stance to take. For one can only find out that scripture is a valid source of evidence about things by . . . . examining and comparing its consistency with the other evidence we have.

The veracity of scripture depends on evidence outside of scripture. If we were so foolish as to attempt to prove it only based on scripture, that would be circular reasoning, no more logical than for me to assure you that this post here is inerrant because it says it is inerrant right here in this sentence.

So the evidence by which we conclude to give weight to the spiritual teachings of scripture must include the findings of science; they are part of the evidence we should consider.

People who claim we must consider scripture and science to be incompatible are therefore voting against the serious consideration of scripture, whether they realize it or not. We may interpret scripture to be consistent with science if we so choose, and no one has a right to deny us our interpretation.

ITs an observation. You would rather argue over this nonsense than follow Gods wisdom. Go ahead, join with your atheist brother, show me what a fool i am to reject the false doctrine of Atheists scientists.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

We cannot expect atheists such as the one you respond to in that example - to rely on scripture -- as I am sure you will agree.

What is "helpful" is that the atheists will very often admit that the Bible is clearly contradicting evolutionism in its God-ordained doctrine on origins of the form

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

pretty hard to for atheist evolutionist to claim that this Ex 20:11 "legal code" is just another way to say "yeah-- evolutionism that is how it all happened. That is how all life got here".


Gen 1
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

One period of dark and light... one rotation of the planet -- the 6th day - and ALL animal life on earth on land - including humans - fully created.

pretty hard to for atheist evolutionist to claim that this Genesis 1 statement is just another way to say "yeah-- evolutionism that is how it all happened. That is how all life got here".



On the contrary - the mere quote of the verse is sufficient cause to give rise to your objection to it.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

pretty hard to for atheist evolutionist to claim that this Ex 20:11 "legal code" is just another way to say "yeah-- evolutionism that is how it all happened. That is how all life got here".

That is irrefutable

The above assertion that we must accept a literal interpretation of Genesis in such a way as to exclude evolution was written by a human with thousands of retroviral inserts in his DNA, part of the junk DNA we all have, and the patterns of those shared retroviral inserts match up in the thousands with DNA in Chimpanzees, Bonobos, Gorillas . . . . proof of shared physical descent with all those species.

 

[stephen583]

Another rabbit trail?

Not a "rabbit trail"... just more proof the God's Word as it appears in the Bible has been altered by man time and time again. The Bible is filled with warnings about adding to, or taking away from the Word of God.

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life" (Revelation 22:18-19).

"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not ADD TO HIS WORDS, lest he rebuke you and you be found a LIAR" (Proverbs 30:5-6).

"You shall not ADD to the word that I command you, not TAKE AWAY FROM IT, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2).

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different Gospel".. (Galatians 1:6-9).

"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14).

"I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; (Acts 20:29).

Do not presume to teach me the Word of God is beyond being despoiled by the evil of man, or Satan. You are obviously not qualified and learned enough to do so.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

ITs an observation. You would rather argue over this nonsense than follow Gods wisdom. Go ahead, join with your atheist brother, show me what a fool i am to reject the false doctrine of Atheists scientists.

All of reality is God's wisdom, including the secret of our common descent with all other life, now revealed in these last few centuries. It is a lie to say the theory of evolution is atheistic; the most one can say is some atheists accept evolution theory, as do some theists. As a side note, one can mention there are theists who aren't Christian. It isn't logically necessary to believe in Jesus to believe in God. It isn't logically necessary to believe that Genesis is part of the Bible to believe in God, either. This single minded, stubborn, muleheaded linking of evolution with atheism as an argument against evolution is yet another demonstration of abandoning logic and reason.

 

[PapaZoom]

Mine too...
No, not at all.
I think it's arrogant to assume we could understand everything God has made, and who He is.
This is how i prefer to learn about many relevant topics:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzXkVr_R6Kg30l25sDsjipQRpUMQXVi9W
It's a growing playlist of lectures and documentaries...

That's quite a list! I need to start my own. I really like Jonathan McLatchie and The Veritas Forum. I listened to Veritas for years. I've subscribed to your channel. Looks like you're a guitar player too? I'm currently studying music theory and Jazz along with blues and classical.

 

[Extraneous]

Not a "rabbit trail"... just more proof the God's Word as it appears in the Bible has been altered by man time and time again. The Bible is filled with warnings about adding to, or taking away from the Word of God.

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life" (Revelation 22:18-19).

"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not ADD TO HIS WORDS, lest he rebuke you and you be found a LIAR" (Proverbs 30:5-6).

"You shall not ADD to the word that I command you, not TAKE AWAY FROM IT, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2).

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different Gospel".. (Galatians 1:6-9).

"And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:14).

"I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; (Acts 20:29).

Do not presume to teach me the Word of God is beyond being despoiled by the evil of man, or Satan. You are obviously not qualified and learned enough to do so.

Arguing that the bible cant be trusted because it may or may not have been added to, or taken away from, is just another carnal, contentious foolish stumbling block. Our doctrine isnt complicated, and its not rocket science. The command is simple. WE are suppose to all have one mind and to reject this world and its wisdom, and to follow holiness and love. Anything else causes division and does not bear fruit. Man's wisdom is utter foolishness and only divides us. This is what Paul teaches us. God commands holiness. If we did that then we would not need to worry about arguing over scripture because we would be following it already, and anything we dont understand wouldnt matter because the commands of Christ are all that truly matters in the end. TO be of one mind and body, to share what we have, to give God thanks and glory in all things, and to be separate from the world, this is Gods way for us. I can certainly understand pauls irritation with the Corinthians. People love denominations and worldliness more than brotherhood. There is no true love in debate, there is no true holiness in it either. Its no different than the world does. Politics, scientific theories, denominations...these things only divide instead of unite. Its sad that people dont see that part of scripture.

 

[PapaZoom]

Mine too...
No, not at all.
I think it's arrogant to assume we could understand everything God has made, and who He is.
This is how i prefer to learn about many relevant topics:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzXkVr_R6Kg30l25sDsjipQRpUMQXVi9W
It's a growing playlist of lectures and documentaries...

lol @Myself. I just realized I was looking at my own subscription list thinking it was yours. I see yours now too!

 

[stephen583]

Not whales, but there are these things called sharks which can be terrible and monstrous. Of course, if you're in a small boat and get to close to a whale you might find yourself adrift. It has happened. Just ask the crew of the Essex.

Yes. Our destroyer DDG 24 U.S.S. Waddell was rammed head on by a whale in March 1973 off the California coast after we blasted a pod of whales with our sonar during an ASW drill. We nearly sank. Navy did an excellent job of covering its' tracks though. Changed the story so the Waddell was proceeding at 27 knots instead of seven. Said no sonar was being used at the time. Collision was with a dead whale floating in the water, (well it was dead after it rammed our destroyer). The U.S.S. Waddell was decommissioned and sold to the Greek navy. The crew was split up and reassigned to other ships in the navy.

Wasn't the Essex hunting and killing whales ??? Are you referring to the story of Moby Dick ?! And you think the attack in that story was unprovoked ??? Yes. Great Whales are powerful and magnificent sized creatures that must be approached cautiously and with respect. But monsters ?! Lol. I don't think so.

Anyway, sharks (great whites, megalodons) as well as giant squid (Architeuthis, Giganticus) are truly terrible and monstrous sea creatures... which also makes my point... ANY OF THESE CREATURES could have been inserted into the text of Genesis, just as well as the "Great Whales" were. So the choice was totally arbitrary. "great and terrible sea creatures, or monsters" as it appears in the Hebrew language, could refer to ANY gargantuan marine predator.. including extinct marine dinosaurs.

It seems to me, the argument you are making is that only religious fundamentalist zealots can interpret the Bible correctly. How arrogant is that ?!

When I post Scripture showing you it is possible for man to distort the Word of God, you arrogantly "dismiss" it as being non-Christian doctrine, (in effect, taking away from the Word of God). You guys have repeatedly demonstrated your arrogance and unlearnedness in this thread by misrepresenting both Science and Christian theology, as well as the Bible a number of times.

 

[PapaZoom]

Arguing that the bible cant be trusted because it may or may not have been added to, or taken away from, is just another carnal, contentious foolish stumbling block. Our doctrine isnt complicated, and its not rocket science. The command is simple. WE are suppose to all have one mind and to reject this world and its wisdom, and to follow holiness and love. Anything else causes division and does not bear fruit. Man's wisdom is utter foolishness and only divides us. This is what Paul teaches us. God commands holiness. If we did that then we would not need to worry about arguing over scripture because we would be following it already, and anything we dont understand wouldnt matter because the commands of Christ are all that truly matters in the end. TO be of one mind and body, to share what we have, to give God thanks and glory in all things, and to be separate from the world, this is Gods way for us. I can certainly understand pauls irritation with the Corinthians. People love denominations and worldliness more than brotherhood. There is no true love in debate, there is no true holiness in it either. Its no different than the world does. Politics, scientific theories, denominations...these things only divide instead of unite. Its sad that people dont see that part of scripture.

The way I see it, it's not the Bible that can't be trusted. We can't trust ourselves. We all too often get in the way. Ask someone if baptism is required for salvation and you get several different answers. If the Bible were so clear, this shouldn't happen. But the truth is, we all bring a bit of bias and background into our understanding of the Biblical text. It's not important what "I" think the Bible is saying nor is it important what my pastor says. What did the original author intend for his audience to understand? That's the key question. And in order to fully understand the answer to that question, one has to look beyond the biblical text. I'm talking about understanding the times in which the text was written; its idioms and how words interpreted ideas. A lot of background information is often needed to wrestle out the truth of what is conveyed in the Bible. I am not a biblical literalist. I want to take the Bible accurately. And that often requires some deep study work. Agree?

 

[ViaCrucis]

God's Word never changes but the Bible clearly has. Either through additions to the text, omissions, Books accepted in the Cannon, Books rejected, some words mistakenly translated, and the list goes on.

But, we have enough data to deal with any and all apparent conflicts. Of course, like any group, we won't find complete unity when it comes to the Bible and seeing it as flawless. It is inerrant but then one has to carefully define what is meant by that.

But who makes the determination what is the authentic word of God in Scripture and which isn't?

When we look down through history we see that the Deuterocanonicals were generally widely accepted, at least as widely accepted (and often moreso) than the New Testament Antilegomena (Hebrews, James, Jude, the Apocalypse of John, etc); but modern Protestantism completely rejects the Deuterocanonicals but accepts the Antilegomena unquestioningly. And it does both of these things uncritically, with seemingly no bothering to ask the question why? And the reason why there seems to be little critical thought is because the actual history of the Canon of Scripture, not to mention the large breadth and depth of Christian history, seems to be entirely absent from the religious formation of many modern Protestants (not just Protestants, it's a Catholic and Orthodox problem too).

In modern Protestant circles this seems to largely either feed into or otherwise perpetuate a dogmatic Bible-onlyism that is historically un-Christian and un-biblical. To challenge the a priori assumptions about the Bible is frequently interpreted as challenging the authority and/or integrity of Holy Scripture itself--which isn't the case.

The Bible can be authoritative without being magical. By magical I mean a host of different ideas about the Bible which are both biblically unsustainable and, historically, objectively false. For one, the modern concept of biblical inerrancy--by which I mean the idea that the Bible cannot err in any way, shape, or form; and that seemingly "scientific" statements in the biblical texts must be held as scientific and thus such interpretations must take precedence over the evidence-based rule of modern science as it pertains to understanding the mechanisms of the natural world. So that, for example, Genesis 1 must be read as a literal account of cosmic material origins, and this provides sufficient enough reason to reject the grand wealth of evidence uncovered by the scientific method concerning the antiquity of the earth and the universe, the mechanisms of natural selection as having explanatory power to address the vast diversity of life on the planet, and so on and so forth. By "magical" I mean this idea that the Bible is a pristine and perfect tome of divine revelation that that just seems to exist in situ, as though St. John of Patmos finished the last stroke of the pen and divine decree went forth that the Bible was finished--and Christians from thenceforth went around carrying Bibles around with them (at least until the big ol' mean Catholic Church took everyone's Bible away, as the popular narrative tends to go).

The actual story of the Bible is far more interesting, and does a lot more to show the integrity with which the people of God looked to their faith, and to the word which they heard and received. It probably will destroy modern day myths about the Bible, but that's a good thing. Because by tearing down our golden calves we can actually approach the Scriptures honestly, and allow the Scriptures to form and inform our faith meaningfully, as we engage the Scriptures within the context of being the Christian Church, sharing in a legacy of faith that stretches back not just to the Apostles, but back to Abraham.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hieronymus]

That's quite a list! I need to start my own. I really like Jonathan McLatchie and The Veritas Forum. I listened to Veritas for years.

I have learnt a lot from Michael Heiser's lectures. Gave me a lot of new insights.

I've subscribed to your channel.

I post no videos myself though..

Looks like you're a guitar player too? I'm currently studying music theory and Jazz along with blues and classical.

I like jazz, but i don't have any in my collection somehow..
I play no instruments, but iḿ a bit of a DJ (worldly abominable electronic dance music) on local (regional) radio, but iḿ losing interest lately...
Audio is a bit of a hobby too.

 

[Extraneous]

All of reality is God's wisdom, including the secret of our common descent with all other life, now revealed in these last few centuries. It is a lie to say the theory of evolution is atheistic; the most one can say is some atheists accept evolution theory, as do some theists. As a side note, one can mention there are theists who aren't Christian. It isn't logically necessary to believe in Jesus to believe in God. It isn't logically necessary to believe that Genesis is part of the Bible to believe in God, either. This single minded, stubborn, muleheaded linking of evolution with atheism as an argument against evolution is yet another demonstration of abandoning logic and reason.

No that's wrong. You don't see the folly in all this, probably because you dont understand what Paul commands us to do. You seem to understand ToE more than you do the commands of Christ that the apostles taught us. The command of Christ is simple. We make it complicated because we allow our love for the world to blind us to the truth. Anything worldly, such as ToE, that divides us, is not worth having. To love each other, to SERVE each other, thats what matters. We cant do that while we put divisions in front of each other. This is why Paul urges us so often, to put away carnal worldly things, and to instead to be united in the the knowledge of Christ ALONE. Politics, ToE, denominations...its all carnality.

 

[Extraneous]

The way I see it, it's not the Bible that can't be trusted. We can't trust ourselves. We all too often get in the way. Ask someone if baptism is required for salvation and you get several different answers. If the Bible were so clear, this shouldn't happen. But the truth is, we all bring a bit of bias and background into our understanding of the Biblical text. It's not important what "I" think the Bible is saying nor is it important what my pastor says. What did the original author intend for his audience to understand? That's the key question. And in order to fully understand the answer to that question, one has to look beyond the biblical text. I'm talking about understanding the times in which the text was written; its idioms and how words interpreted ideas. A lot of background information is often needed to wrestle out the truth of what is conveyed in the Bible. I am not a biblical literalist. I want to take the Bible accurately. And that often requires some deep study work. Agree?

I dont believe in interpreting NT scripture by observing the times it was written in. Thats just another way to interpret scripture to suit our own needs, and our own love for the world. The command of Christ is simple. Let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, share what we have, pray, be separate from the world and all its division through politics and other such things. Its really not that hard to understand. I believe our teachers are failing us because we live in the end times, and the love for this world has blinded us. I see this, and it grieves me deeply. I hate this stuff, im not sure why i even come here.

 

[Extraneous]

You shall not have any divisions, whether political, scientific, religious or otherwise.

You shall be holy (separate from the world)

YOu shall love each other as yourselves, and love each other as Christ loved you (share what you have, and be of one mind, be untied and equal in all things, LAY DOWN YOUR LIVES FOR EACH OTHER)

 

[Extraneous]

There is neither Democrat nor Republican, American or European, Capitalist or Socialist. You are all one in Christ. There is neither ToE or Creationists. THERE IS ONLY CHRIST

 

[AmericanChristian91]

One day after school they came running into our place challenging us very adamantly that we evolved from apes and that there was no God... my wife and I were shocked and tried to assure them this wasn't so but they said to us, "why would our teacher lie to us?"

I don't think the problem Is that they heard about evolution. The issue is either.....the girls interpreted being told they came from Apes in meaning God didn't create them. Or the teacher said no God exists, which isn't allowed. However in places that accept evolution and are run by Christians, your not going to get talk that says God didn't make us because of evolution. Even in my secular college in an anthropology class, the point was made that evolution is not anti-religion by my teacher because there are many religious that accept it.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

It's funny how people keep saying that the Bible can't be trusted, yet what Jesus said keeps getting quoted. Ironic.

 

[KWCrazy]

Wasn't the Essex hunting and killing whales ??? Are you referring to the story of Moby Dick ?!

The Essex was a whaling ship that was sunk by a sperm whale. It was the basis of Moby Dick. The crew survived by cannibalism.

 

[Hoghead1]

That is a very good way, Extraneous, to take the Bible way out of context and distort its meaning. Many biblical passages have a specific address on them. For example, when we read Paul's letters, we are obviously reading some else's mail. If we don't understand the situation he was in with those churches, they we haven't got an inkling what's going on.

 

[KWCrazy]

All of reality is God's wisdom, including the secret of our common descent with all other life, now revealed in these last few centuries.

Revealed to whom? By whom? We do not have common descent, we have a common Creator. His word tells us that the universe was created in six days with man being on the sixth. That is what the Bible reveals. Anything else is heresy.

It isn't logically necessary to believe in Jesus to believe in God.

True, the Jews do not believe that Christ was the Messiah.
However, one cannot reject the teachings of Christ and say they are devout followers. Christ affirmed for us that the Scriptures are the word of God.