Why do Christians get evasive, defensive or angry when faced with difficult questions

[Colter]

Time for a group hug

 

[kristina411]

Time for a group hug

Lol

 

[Inkachu]

 

[HonestTruth]

Getting angry over challenging questions is not unique to Christians. Indeed, Muslims get angry over tough questions. Zionists get angry even though Orthodox Jews point out that the Bible's teachings contradict their ideas. Communists get angry when their ideas are challenged.

But the difference is that Jesus forbids you from getting angry when challenged in such a manner.

 

[Inkachu]

Nevermind.

 

[talquin]

I hope this was raised up earlier. Atheists always have the false belief that God's foreknowledge puts a limit of people's free will, and they fail to understand how illogical and irrational that belief is.

You may want to read this:

Christians often make the claim that God knows everything. If asked for specifics, they’ll say this includes knowledge about the future (foreknowledge) and that such knowledge is infallible. Christians also often make the claim that man has free will. Upon being asked for specifics, they’ll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict. However, if we dig a little deeper into each of these claims, we’ll see that they are.

Let’s say Fred is faced with a free choice of A or B. He is due to make this choice on Tuesday (day 2). We’ll call Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable Y. This means prior to day 2, variable Y has no value (or the choice lies in an unmade state), and on day 2, variable Y will acquire a value of either A or B – to be decided freely by Fred.

Given the Christian claim that God has infallible foreknowledge, this would mean God knows infallibly what A/B choice Fred will make when the choice still lies in an unmade state. To gain further clarity on this, it can be asked, “if it were asked on day 1 does God know infallibly what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, would the answer be YES?”. Christians would typically agree.

If asked for further specifics, such as what if Fred chooses something in conflict with what God knows he will choose, Christians will respond with the assertion that Fred will choose whatever God knows he will choose.

So we’ll call God’s day 1 knowledge of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.

We now have three conditions:

1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.

2) Y (or Fred’s day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.

3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.

Not all three of these conditions can be true.

If #1 & #2 are true, then #3 can’t be true, as X wouldn’t be equal to Y, nor would Y be equal to X. Not only would X receive a value at a different point in time than Y, but Y could be assigned a value in conflict with the static value of X.

If #1 & #3 are true, then #2 can’t be true. Fred wouldn’t be able to freely choose A or B, as variable Y would already be defined as being equal to variable X. Christians will often argue that God's knowledge of Fred’s future choice is a function of Fred’s day 2 choice. But this doesn’t hold true if the answer to the question “if asked on day 1, does God know what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be?” is YES.

If #2 & #3 are true, then #1 can’t be true. What this means is if variable Y gets its value on day 2, then variable X also gets its value on day 2 and gets the same value as variable Y. It then follows that God can’t have infallible knowledge on day 1 of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.

 

[kristina411]

You may want to read this:

Page 22, comment 215. I am awaiting your response

 

[talquin]

I already addressed this in a previous post. There is no "Day 1" for this god. Everything is the past.

You're off track. As of our day 1, God either knows or doesn't know what your day 2 A/B choice will be. If he does know, then whether it is A or B would have to be defined and have a truth value as of day 1.

 

[talquin]

I responded to your question (^) on page 22 comment 215. I am assuming you did not see it, easy for posts to get swallowed in some of these threads.

We can not do anything in conflict with what God knows we will do, that's just it. We are doing what God knew us to do. It is as simple as that. We can ask what if about anything, but what if does not mean it would actually happen.

Let's say you are faced with an A/B choice and you end up choosing A. Up until the time you chose A, could you still have chosen B?

Your issue with reasoning is with using words like the ones in bold text above.

God is likely not limited to restrictions of time as we are. How do we measure time? By measures found in our universe. But God is outside of this universe, there for outside of our measurement of time.

You can not apply restrictions of time to God who is not bound by our science or law. Why would an Almighty, Creator of our time Himself and our existence, be bound by His own creation?

I suggest you read this:

Christians often make the claim that God knows everything. If asked for specifics, they’ll say this includes knowledge about the future (foreknowledge) and that such knowledge is infallible. Christians also often make the claim that man has free will. Upon being asked for specifics, they’ll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict. However, if we dig a little deeper into each of these claims, we’ll see that they are.

Let’s say Fred is faced with a free choice of A or B. He is due to make this choice on Tuesday (day 2). We’ll call Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable Y. This means prior to day 2, variable Y has no value (or the choice lies in an unmade state), and on day 2, variable Y will acquire a value of either A or B – to be decided freely by Fred.

Given the Christian claim that God has infallible foreknowledge, this would mean God knows infallibly what A/B choice Fred will make when the choice still lies in an unmade state. To gain further clarity on this, it can be asked, “if it were asked on day 1 does God know infallibly what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, would the answer be YES?”. Christians would typically agree.

If asked for further specifics, such as what if Fred chooses something in conflict with what God knows he will choose, Christians will respond with the assertion that Fred will choose whatever God knows he will choose.

So we’ll call God’s day 1 knowledge of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.

We now have three conditions:

1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.

2) Y (or Fred’s day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.

3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.

Not all three of these conditions can be true.

If #1 & #2 are true, then #3 can’t be true, as X wouldn’t be equal to Y, nor would Y be equal to X. Not only would X receive a value at a different point in time than Y, but Y could be assigned a value in conflict with the static value of X.

If #1 & #3 are true, then #2 can’t be true. Fred wouldn’t be able to freely choose A or B, as variable Y would already be defined as being equal to variable X. Christians will often argue that God's knowledge of Fred’s future choice is a function of Fred’s day 2 choice. But this doesn’t hold true if the answer to the question “if asked on day 1, does God know what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be?” is YES.

If #2 & #3 are true, then #1 can’t be true. What this means is if variable Y gets its value on day 2, then variable X also gets its value on day 2 and gets the same value as variable Y. It then follows that God can’t have infallible knowledge on day 1 of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.

 

[talquin]

OK, you're just kind of repeating yourself, from what I'm seeing. You keep saying "God knows you'll choose this, but then you choose that". God knows what choice you're going to make. Period. I'm not sure how else to say it. If you're going to ultimately choose B, then God doesn't "know" you're going to choose A, He knows you're going to choose B.

By your logic, your choice comes first and is followed by God's knowledge of your choice. IOW, God's knowledge of your choice is a function of your choice, not the other way around. If so, then as of day 1, God's knowledge of your day 2 A/B choice wouldn't have a truth value.

 

[talquin]

There is no "as of day 1" for God. He's eternal and infinite and exists outside of the constraints of time. He can see the day you're born and the day you die at once, and knows what will occur in between.

So, no, God's knowledge never changes. He knows everything that will occur from the beginning of human time, to the end of it.

If I were to say, "God knows what your day 2 A/B choice will be", does that mean it is true at the moment I say it?

 

[kristina411]

Let's say you are faced with an A/B choice and you end up choosing A. Up until the time you chose A, could you still have chosen B?


I suggest you read this:

Christians often make the claim that God knows everything. If asked for specifics, they’ll say this includes knowledge about the future (foreknowledge) and that such knowledge is infallible. Christians also often make the claim that man has free will. Upon being asked for specifics, they’ll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict. However, if we dig a little deeper into each of these claims, we’ll see that they are.

Let’s say Fred is faced with a free choice of A or B. He is due to make this choice on Tuesday (day 2). We’ll call Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable Y. This means prior to day 2, variable Y has no value (or the choice lies in an unmade state), and on day 2, variable Y will acquire a value of either A or B – to be decided freely by Fred.

Given the Christian claim that God has infallible foreknowledge, this would mean God knows infallibly what A/B choice Fred will make when the choice still lies in an unmade state. To gain further clarity on this, it can be asked, “if it were asked on day 1 does God know infallibly what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, would the answer be YES?”. Christians would typically agree.

If asked for further specifics, such as what if Fred chooses something in conflict with what God knows he will choose, Christians will respond with the assertion that Fred will choose whatever God knows he will choose.

So we’ll call God’s day 1 knowledge of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.

We now have three conditions:

1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.

2) Y (or Fred’s day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.

3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.

Not all three of these conditions can be true.

If #1 & #2 are true, then #3 can’t be true, as X wouldn’t be equal to Y, nor would Y be equal to X. Not only would X receive a value at a different point in time than Y, but Y could be assigned a value in conflict with the static value of X.

If #1 & #3 are true, then #2 can’t be true. Fred wouldn’t be able to freely choose A or B, as variable Y would already be defined as being equal to variable X. Christians will often argue that God's knowledge of Fred’s future choice is a function of Fred’s day 2 choice. But this doesn’t hold true if the answer to the question “if asked on day 1, does God know what Fred’s day 2 A/B choice will be?” is YES.

If #2 & #3 are true, then #1 can’t be true. What this means is if variable Y gets its value on day 2, then variable X also gets its value on day 2 and gets the same value as variable Y. It then follows that God can’t have infallible knowledge on day 1 of Fred’s day 2 A/B choice.

Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.

My responses were in response to yours above:

Your issue with reasoning is with using words like the ones in bold text above.
God is likely not limited to restrictions of time as we are. How do we measure time? By measures found in our universe. But God is outside of this universe, there for outside of our measurement of time.
You can not apply restrictions of time to God who is not bound by our science or law. Why would an Almighty, Creator of our time Himself and our existence, be bound by His own creation?

^that is the answer to your question. Your equation only applies to our laws of science and mathematics, God is not bound by the laws of this universe, including time.

 

[talquin]

My responses were in response to yours above:
Your issue with reasoning is with using words like the ones in bold text above.

God is likely not limited to restrictions of time as we are. How do we measure time? By measures found in our universe. But God is outside of this universe, there for outside of our measurement of time.

You can not apply restrictions of time to God who is not bound by our science or law. Why would an Almighty, Creator of our time Himself and our existence, be bound by His own creation?

^that is the answer to your question. Your equation only applies to our laws of science and mathematics, God is not bound by the laws of this universe, including time.

If you're right, then which of the following is incorrect:

1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.

2) Y (or Fred’s day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.

3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.

 

[kristina411]

I already explained this.
X and y have the same variable. It may not apply to our idea of time, but God does not conform to our ideas, nor is The Creator of time bound by it.

I have answered your questions in each of my posts to you, read them please. I dont wish to be asked the same question repeatedly. You are free to disagree, but lets not play a dancing game.
Page 18, comment 175(I believe it was) I responded to this question as such:

Simple
Variable y and variable x have the same value.
You ask yourself, from a human limited even to the use of their own brain.
We are limited greatly by time. If it were not for time we would be much more open to ideas.
Take away the time in which God is aware of your choices and it makes your equation very much plausible.
We are assuming God understands on our time schedule. God understands today what happens tomorrow. But for all we know God could be in tomorrow already, if tomorrow exists at all with God.
Does he know before, during, or after? Was it known the moment the Earth gained form? Everyone has differing opinions and I doubt any two Christians would fully agree with each other in all of the ideas but I may be wrong. My idea would be that, since God is all knowing, even what is in our hearts more than we ourselves know, he is aware of our own choices before they are made on a different time scale than we are. We are limited even in our understanding of time.

 

[kristina411]

Oh, I see you were asking for incorrect and not correct. My mistake.

1 and 2 are flawed because they assume time has the same meaning outside of our universe when time is only relevant to us, and only because of an expiration date.

 

[bhsmte]

Oh, I see you were asking for incorrect and not correct. My mistake.

1 and 2 are flawed because they assume time has the same meaning outside of our universe when time is only relevant to us, and only because of an expiration date.

I assume you believe God is a personal God, that impacts peoples lives on earth correct?

If so, wouldn't this God need to somehow be able to interact with our universe to be a personal God and how could he do so if he is outside of our universe?

 

[Inkachu]

By your logic, your choice comes first and is followed by God's knowledge of your choice. IOW, God's knowledge of your choice is a function of your choice, not the other way around. If so, then as of day 1, God's knowledge of your day 2 A/B choice wouldn't have a truth value.

There is no "first" here... you just don't seem to grasp this... God is ETERNAL... His knowledge does not have a beginning. I understand the concept of eternity is extremely difficult for us as finite humans, but in order to understand what we as Christians are trying to tell you, you've got to broaden your mind a bit more.

 

[Inkachu]

If I were to say, "God knows what your day 2 A/B choice will be", does that mean it is true at the moment I say it?

It's ALWAYS been true.

 

[Inkachu]

I assume you believe God is a personal God, that impacts peoples lives on earth correct?

If so, wouldn't this God need to somehow be able to interact with our universe to be a personal God and how could he do so if he is outside of our universe?

I don't think she meant He is somehow excluded from the physical universe, but that He exists both inside of it and outside of it; He is not limited by it. It's His creation, He made the rules by which it functions, so He can certainly interact with it.

 

[bhsmte]

I don't think she meant He is somehow excluded from the physical universe, but that He exists both inside of it and outside of it; He is not limited by it. It's His creation, He made the rules by which it functions, so He can certainly interact with it.

That's fine. I get the basic argument; he created everything, so he can do pretty much as he pleases deal.

Just wanted to point out, that to be a personal God and to interact with life on earth, he would have to be a part of this universe as well as being outside of it at the same time.