Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[Athée]

This is like asking God to zap you or me when we make a mistake. Imagine if God stepped in right now when I typed miszake instead of mistake. It seems to me that God has allowed ordinary human beings to make errors (with consequences) in his providence.

This is what everyday Christians are to do: 'Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world' (1 John 4:1 NIV).

Everyday Christians who are literate (sadly there is increasing illiteracy in the English speaking world) can access all of the OT in English.

To make errors and spread dissent is a product of what happened in Genesis 3, the Fall into sin. Our world, including the human heart, is contaminated by sin and we will not see it eliminated until there are new heavens and a new earth where justice/righteousness dwells (see 2 Peter 3:13, 'But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God's righteousness', NLT).

May the Lord lead you in your search for truth.

Oz

So let's say through your fallen human condition you have made a faulty interpretation of scripture and belive in a specific doctrine D as a result.
Now along comes a false preacher who teaches that D is true. You test this against scripture but because you already believe D this test only ends up confirming for you that D is true.
If we can't trust ourselves to be interpreting scripture correctly and if we can misunderstand the teaching of the holy Spirit, how can we trust the conclusions of any testing we do?

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[Athée]

God's word is first His personal message, to each of us . . . not first a thing for logical analysis and getting ideas and explanations and rules.

If you were to get a letter from your wife, would you start with logically analyzing what she wrote, and getting doctrinal ideas about her; or would you start with how you love her so and are excited to read whatsoever she lovingly shares with you? I think you might be excited and wanting to discover all she has to share.

And, because you already personally know her and have shared in all the things you have shared, you can understand what she means by different things. But someone who does not know her might not get things like you can

So, if people start with the Bible impersonally, they get in problems with each other and also themselves . . . unless God gets through to them in spite of themselves And He is about personal loving; so if people are discussing His word in an impersonal way . . . this can be how they get nowhere. As much as we are impersonal, we do not connect with our Heavenly Father who is personal and about family.

We depend on God to bring us into how He has us loving with Him and each other >

"Now may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the patience of Christ." (2 Thessalonians 3:5)

I would say that this is always the main intended meaning, deeper than the words, of all His message.

By the way, what happens if you start to take a special someone for granted? Also, we need to not take God's word for granted just because we have gotten a few ideas about Him and His message. There are people who can read the exact same thing in the Bible, any number of times, and each time they get something new and fresh to make them more alive with God and loving. Meanwhile, others can get some one set idea and only use the whole Bible to prove it; and their interacting, then, about their ideas can indeed be love-dead and with arguing and despising others who don't agree with them. His message is meant to make us more and more alive in His love, instead

So the truths of God are subjective and different for each person?

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[Deadworm]

Athee, in life theological understanding is the booby prize because it normally gives skeptics just enough spirituality to inoculate them against the real thing. And what is the real thing? A faith confirmed by direct experience of the divine.
So let me ask you 2 crucial questions:

(1) If there really was a loving God, how important would it be to you to discover and experience that love?
(2) If you could have a self-authenticating personal relationship with Christ, would you even want to experience such an intimate relationship?

Are you open to a grand experiment, potentially the most important experiment you have ever conducted? Why not start a thread in "Exploring Christianity" with the title, "How can an atheist have a life-changing relationship with God?" and I will lay out the steps that can work to YOUR satisfaction. Then as the thread progresses, you can share your reaction to each step, including your reservations. I'm asking you neither to believe anything nor sacrifice your intellectual integrity, but rather to approach the issue experimentally in a way that can succeed. As I lay out the steps, I will need to provide some rationale for why certain necessary conditions must be met. Are you game?

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Very interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. Why do you think God allowed/planned this state of affairs?

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I don't know. I'm coming to this understanding only now, in the past few months, after being a Christian for 25 years. I've already been called by some Christians as listening to the devil for such and other views... My thoughts also resonated with other Christians... It's pretty new to me, I'm trying to understand, to make sense of everything... Sincerely and honestly praying to God and asking for His revelation..........

 

[victorinus]

On the quesrion of Thomas, do you think his story demonstrates faith or is it perhaps more about confidence based on a personal experience.
Not sure what you mean about no reason without faith unless that is a throw away to Vantill?

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I can't relate to augustine because I like thomas do not know what living without faith is like
-but-
we know we would not be reading about augustine
-if-
he had not found it

 

[victorinus]

So are you agreeing that the test of time maybe it the best way to determine the truth of an idea?
As for fruit I wonder what kind of fruit only a true Christian could produce. Do you have any examples?

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schools, hospitals, orphanages, missions, etc.

 

[victorinus]

So are you agreeing that the test of time maybe it the best way to determine the truth of an idea?

there are many tests
-so-
you should use them all
-if-
you need them

 

[Athée]

Athee, in life theological understanding is the booby prize because it normally gives skeptics just enough spirituality to inoculate them against the real thing. And what is the real thing? A faith confirmed by direct experience of the divine.
So let me ask you 2 crucial questions:

(1) If there really was a loving God, how important would it be to you to discover and experience that love?
(2) If you could have a self-authenticating personal relationship with Christ, would you even want to experience such an intimate relationship?

Are you open to a grand experiment, potentially the most important experiment you have ever conducted? Why not start a thread in "Exploring Christianity" with the title, "How can an atheist have a life-changing relationship with God?" and I will lay out the steps that can work to YOUR satisfaction. Then as the thread progresses, you can share your reaction to each step, including your reservations. I'm asking you neither to believe anything nor sacrifice your intellectual integrity, but rather to approach the issue experimentally in a way that can succeed. As I lay out the steps, I will need to provide some rationale for why certain necessary conditions must be met. Are you game?

1) yes
2) yes/maybe (if he turns out to be a genocidal petulant monster then I might be convinced he is real and that he demands worship without being able to actually respect or worship except out of terror)

I will start the thread.

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[Athée]

I don't know. I'm coming to this understanding only now, in the past few months, after being a Christian for 25 years. I've already been called by some Christians as listening to the devil for such and other views... My thoughts also resonated with other Christians... It's pretty new to me, I'm trying to understand, to make sense of everything... Sincerely and honestly praying to God and asking for His revelation..........

Questioning long held beliefs can be an uncomfortable thing, well done for being open to ask questions of tour own beliefs.
When you are praying sincerely to God for guidance how do you distinguish between your own insights and his revelation to you?

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[Athée]

I can't relate to augustine because I like thomas do not know what living without faith is like
-but-
we know we would not be reading about augustine
-if-
he had not found it

Maybe you could share your definition of faith because I am having a hard time figuring out how you are using the word.
Thanks
Also was that a "no" on the presuppositional approach?

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[Athée]

schools, hospitals, orphanages, missions, etc.

So are you saying that only a true Christian can start schools and hospitals, orphanages and foreign aid programs?

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[Athée]

there are many tests
-so-
you should use them all
-if-
you need them

Shoot, what an unfortunate auto correct.
I meant to ask,

Are you agreeing that the test of time is NOT a great method for determining what is true because beliefs you consider false have also existed for very long times.
Sorry for the confusion.

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[victorinus]

Maybe you could share your definition of faith because I am having a hard time figuring out how you are using the word.
Thanks
Also was that a "no" on the presuppositional approach?

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my definition of faith is the same one you will find in the dictionary
-
on the presuppositional approach? - huh?

 

[victorinus]

So are you saying that only a true Christian can start schools and hospitals, orphanages and foreign aid programs?

no but I am saying it is a christian thing to do
-and-
it would satisfy at least one important test

 

[victorinus]

Shoot, what an unfortunate auto correct.
I meant to ask,

Are you agreeing that the test of time is NOT a great method for determining what is true because beliefs you consider false have also existed for very long times.

I am saying it is a very good test
-but-
not sufficient

 

[com7fy8]

Is salvation and how it happens a trivial matter?

no

So if reasonable Christians disagree about this, then it follows that the disagreements are not only about trivial, peripheral, would you agree?

The process of salvation is not a trivial subject; so yes to this. However, Athée, I consider that if ones in a discussion are all reasonable, then they can come to an agreement; so . . . no to people being reasonable and being able to keep on and on in a major division and disagreement.

And, by the way, if you have not gotten to personally know a religious leader, how can you be so sure the person is reasonable? Just because one has an education and tones one's voice to sound reasonable and talks intellectually, this does not mean the person is Christian.

I will offer what you can decide is reasonable or not > one first needs to trust in Jesus for salvation > Ephesians 1:12. I think we do well to consider what is involved in trusting someone. There is personal communication and involvement and relating, not only distant theoretical ideas about the one you trust, and you are not only copy-catting what others tell you to do for the person you trust; because you personally know the person who can guide you. So, if ones emphasize and argue about ideas and theories and essentially copy-catting them, this is not reasonable.

Jesus says,

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

He says, "learn from Me" > to me, this means to personally learn from Jesus Himself, however this is and works. So, getting right into non-personal issues of ideas and practices could be considered not reasonable, couldn't it?

Ones can get very busy with labeling those who don't agree with them. This is not reasonable.

But the ones who are reasonable will probably not get tangled and mangled in endless arguing and calling each other names. But they will be first about staying gentle and humble and patient (2 Timothy 2:23-25), as ones whose objective is to adopt mistaken and wrong people to become our adopted brothers and sisters in Jesus . . . not only to prove them wrong.

Plus, their first emphasis will not be the ideas, even if they are not trivial; but first we need, ourselves, to seek our Father for correction deeper than our ideas. Because our character can effect what we are able to believe; or, like I think I offered here, already, even if our ideas are technically correct, our character can effect how well we hold to and relate and live out our ideas.

Our Apostle Paul says, if we have all our knowledge correct but do not have love, we have gotten nowhere > 1 Corinthians 13

This is why I consider that reasonable people who do not agree might table the idea of disagreement . . . because the main priority of our attention needs to be to submitting to God and discovering how He has us become in His love and how we relate with love for any and all people, as ourselves.

 

[com7fy8]

I wonder what the difference might be between, getting to know the bible better in a way that leads to true understanding of it...
and
Taking time with difficult ideas until I can rationalize them into supprting my own beliefs and values?

I hope to not only defend my more controversial ideas, but I take them with a grain of salt and try to get and share how my ideas can help me get more real with God and discover how to relate lovingly with any and all people. And while I may get into discussing or even debating my less accepted ideas, at the same time I need to be busy with sensing for and submitting to God in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And, even if someone is harsh and twisting what I offer, I know there can be people reading who are honorable; so I try to stay with writing answers which can help the ones who are caring and honest and have given me attention. But, also, I know God is able to use good things to help trolls and others who might be nasty or misrepresenting what I offer. So, I try to stay with offering what can do anyone some good

 

[Monk Brendan]

The 11 disciples used divination in the form of casting lots to pick Judas's replacement (Acts 1:23-26).

WRONG! The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD. (Prov 16:33 KJV)

 

[Monk Brendan]

I think here “violence” means an untrue way of doing, and, “take it by force” means not the way Jesus wants.

I'm going to disagree with you. Jesus was not always non-violent. Turning over money-changers' tables and making a whip is a violent reaction--Totally justifiable, but nonetheless violent

 

[Monk Brendan]

So it sounds like you are saying that where I as a father would clearly teach the important things to my children, that this is a pattern I choose because I am a fallen human. That God in his wisdom prefers to be the author of confusion because it serves his purposes. Is that right?

God is NEVER the author of confusion. That comes from the devil. God loves you. Already, before you were born He loved you. And He will continue to love you, even if you reject Him totally and go to your grave hating Him for not existing. And He will continue to love your soul, even after you are dead and in hell.

If you believe a chair exists, and you want to sit down, all you need to do is trust that the chair exists, and sit down, right?

Just so, if you believe that God exists, all you need to do is trust Him. He will do the rest. He will draw you to humble yourself and pray. He will draw you into a saving knowledge of Jesus.

Stop over-analyzing. You are listening to all sorts of people, from all sorts of religious views. Stop listening to people, and start listening to God. He will speak to you, softly, it is true, and you have to be willing to listen. Shut out all the noise that comes in to your mind, and quietly listen.