Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[JacksBratt]

HOLD EVERYTHING! Athee has started with the wrong question, and everybody is trying to give him the right answer when what we need to be telling him what the right question is.

Athee, you claim to be an atheist. If that is true, why all of the focus on the Holy Spirit? You cannot receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while you don't believe in God! First, you have to seek Him. If you earnestly seek Him you will find Him. Then you need to begin cooperating with Him. To do that, all you need to do is to humble yourself and pray. Tell Him that you want to cooperate Him. Most Protestants will tell you that you must accept Jesus into your heart. I don't care what they say, I am only interested in you learning to love God.

Once you have done that, THEN you can worry about how the Holy Spirit works in a believer's life.

I believe that he has been told this several times in different posts on this thread.

 

[victorinus]

I wonder if reasonable Christians could disagree or does reason always lead believes to the same conclusions.
Logic is a tough one. Do you mean formal logic or is this an extension of common sense in your view?
Is common sense truly common across all the global community of Christians or do you think social norms and culture shape what is considered common sense to some extent?

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there are very few enlightened christians -
look how many are raised to hate catholics or anyone who doesn't believe the way they do -
thomas proved that faith is reasonable
-and-
augustine proved that there is no reason without faith

 

[victorinus]

Oops forgot the test of time. If length of time is important the the eastern religions are correct, or maybe the Muslims..?

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there is another test -
only the good tree will bear good fruit
-and-
it is the toughest test off all

 

[com7fy8]

I like the idea of bibliomancy, I will use that in future discussions Congratulations on your superpower!

. . . this, in response to >

She prayed about this and then used an interpretive technique called bibliomancy; that is, she prayed, closed her eyes, and randomly opened her Bible and blindly pointed her finger at a text which turned out to be Jesus' prohibition against divorce in Mark 10:2-11. To her, this seemed like divine guidance, but she asked me what I thought of her conclusion.

I felt prompted to ask for her Bible. I closed my eyes, instantly randomly zapped my finger inside, and found it pointing to Deuteronomy 24:1-4, which gives permission for men to divorce their wives and specifies how to go about this. Linda was thunderstruck by this paranormal demonstration. When she composed herself, she smiled and wryly asked, "So are you saying your divine guidance trumps my guidance?" I was amazed at my impulse to do this and my success in doing so.

Neither person got 1 Peter 3:1-4 which in my opinion would have required much more maturity and learning how to love. But each scripture they got could more readily be used for someone to make up one's own mind and do it the way that individual pleased to understand and do it . . . not necessarily praying and getting more real with God and loving.

But 1 Peter 3:1-4, I think, more directly challenges someone to depend on God and how well He is able to do things, in sharing with us.

It is possible that God gave her what she was able to get, both by herself and from him . . . but limited by her own spirituality. And she needs rather to share with mature and experienced people who from their own errors and trials Hebrews 5:2) and success (2 Corinthians 1:3-4) can help her . . . instead of using a do-or-don't private quick-fix approach with only a Bible verse or two.

Please remember how I offered that, in God's word, with every major confrontation there often is a clear or implied encouragement of all which is so better, instead of what is confronted. So, going to the Bible only or mainly in order to get a do-or-don't order is too limiting, and likely to have the person depending on oneself.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
.And lean not on your own understanding;
.In all your ways acknowledge Him,
.And He shall direct your paths."
. . . . . . . . . . .(Proverbs 3:5-6)

But she did consult with her friend; so possibly she was not acting totally in isolation.

If we have already grown in a lifestyle of constantly seeking and submitting to how God personally guides us, then in a problem we can just keep on doing what we already have learned to do > give it to God and obey how He guides us > "continually", Isaiah 58:11 does say.

So, if one uses the Bible in order to go to God, only at certain times, for a quick-fix order . . . this is not staying with God all the time; and so one can get into a lot of stress and waste so he or she might not be ready to benefit from even whatever God might share with the person. When Jesus answered to people, often He first dealt with their own need for correction, not only what to do or who was right. This is missing from the two scriptures they got, though it did help to make a point

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Very interesting discussion overall.

Just a thought. I think much of the problems of understanding what the core Christian truth is, is related to the fact that the Bible does not contain a consistent and clear explanation about it. What we have in the NT is a random collection of contradictory stories, personal letters written in a narrow context, and an allegory. In other words, 4-way cacophonous hearsay, a forever hidden context and aesopian language. All of these writings are layered upon a body of texts - the OT - which are even farther away from Christianity.

So, there is no Christian core truth in existence as is. Christians are really struggling to try and extract the almost unexctractable. No wander they can never agree on virtually anything! Mission impossible.

In the first 3.5 centuries there were several prominent denominations of Christianity with even greater disagreements on the core truth as we see today. Then Orthodoxy finally won under Constantine the great and pushed all the other versions of Christianity into persecuted apostasy or oblivion. It is not a secret how and why the 'canon' was selected, sanctified and protected throughout the centuries, the alternatives exterminated. As the result, most of the modern Christianities are but offshoots from Orthodoxy.

It's so sad and unfortunate that even though Christ's teaching as echoed in the gospels is so powerful and revolutionary, nobody at the time took an effort to try and write it out A to Z in a clear, consistent and comprehensive way. That would have made things a lot easier today. Or did anybody even understand it as is?

 

[com7fy8]

Is salvation and how it happens a trivial matter?

no

It is not only a theoretical and scholarly issue or subject, or a do-it-yourself and self-willed thing.

There is how God prepares a person and has someone learn, so the person trusts in Jesus > John 6:43-45.

God joins the person to Jesus so he or she is "one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) In this process a person denies oneself, like Jesus says all need to do > Luke 9:23.

Then there is much discovering that one experiences in becoming one spirit with Jesus. So, this is way more than words and scholarship can tell. We are changed into a nature of peace, more and more > Matthew 11:28-30.

There is plenty of scripture, then, which is commanding and teaching but also describing what happens because of our being with God.

 

[Athée]

Yes.

And, yes.

Humans put boundaries on everything. Children dont. They are taught boundaries. This includes intellectual, spiritual and philosophical boundaries.

But, God has no boundaries. His simplicity demands an open, uncritical (to a point,) unfiltered and innocently seeking heart/mind. Otherwise, He becomes overwhelmingly paradoxical, and complicated by the hedges and boundaries we put on a creation for which we didn't make the rules.

Even Christ talks about the importance of wing child-like when approaching God.

I would say God cares more that the children know Him, and build their foundation in Him from an early age. The older someone gets, the harder it becomes for someone to understand and accept God. Life just gets in the way and replaces the importance of spiritual discernment with carnal survival.

There is a lot of interesting stuff in there but I am going to restrain myself and try to say on track Thanks so much for your insights.

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[com7fy8]

You mentioned that false Christians could be part of sowing confusion. How do you tell who the true and false ones are?

One thing which helps me is I have gotten to know the Bible so it is easier to spot what is not really with it; I try not to develop any ideas which are attached to only one verse and have no other company to keep

There are people who have built everything on one verse . . . to exaggerate, more or less. And then all you hear them talking about is their one or two or three ideas they got from that verse. Those items are what I call "fingerprints" that they can have all over everything they say. And they can constantly be comparing themselves only with other people . . . not comparing themselves with Jesus and how He has us relating. 2 Corinthians 10:12

And if we have experience of how God's love in us effects us, this can help us to better understand all which the Bible really means, so we don't get sidetracked with only or mainly ideas and doctrinal issues.

So, for one example, if someone comes along and only talks about how he or she is right and everyone else is wrong, but the person does not give anything which actually feeds us how to be with God and how to love, I will consider that that person is mainly or only about getting attention to oneself.

 

[com7fy8]

The post says god corrects only his children, in that case why did Paul even bother with the gentiles, they were not gods children at that time and he seemed to be correcting them and bringing them to God.

I mean correction which comes after a person is submitting to God. And, by the way, if people are not living for God, they tend to refuse and not benefit from however God would correct them. Hebrews 12:4-11 means correction which is succeeding.

So, yes God did have Paul reach to Gentiles, but the real correction can work only after someone is seeking God for Himself. But, yes, there is correction which is needed in order for a person to do this. But I mean correction which is succeeding in changing someone into how God has us loving. And Jesus says He is the way to God > John 14:6; so if someone is getting some sort of change without Jesus, this is not as good as the correction we have in Jesus.

So, I do understand that God does bless unbelievers, perhaps with some kind of correction (1 Timothy 4:10); but their benefit is limited if they do not submit to Jesus and get the new nature which we can share by being each "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17).

 

[com7fy8]

If being a mature believer means you have a netter sense of the truth why do we have elders in all the different denominations who disagree with each other?

There can be up-front leaders who make a major show, so people suppose they speak for everyone . . . while the gentle and quiet and humble ones are sitting in the back row. The ones disagreeing can be the ones who get the attention so you can suppose all elders do this

There are churches and groups who select elders in a status giving way, not according to the standards of 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

Moreover if length of time that ideas are considered leads to truth shouldn't the Catholics or the Orthodox be considered the most mature and therfore true?

Well, I do not think I meant to say that length of time determines how well someone gets one's ideas straight. Maturing does take time, though, but we need quality of the quantity

There have been religious people in history who have been into much quantity without the quality. I think an individual who is maturing in Jesus will mature in Christ's light and creativity in one's own lifetime. But you might not see much public show of the person.

 

[com7fy8]

When you say people who are wrong can be identified by the way they push bad ideas,wouldn't they say the same thing of you, that you are pushing the bad ideas (where they disagree with you at least)?

understd

How do we tell who is correct?

That is always an adventure. What I think helps me is to first know that I somehow could be wrong. Even if my idea might be right, how am I being, about it? How am I relating with people? Am I caring about the person I may disagree with or only trying to prove myself right? These always are issues, for my own case!

And I offered that general growing in knowledge of the Bible can help, along with sharing with people who are good examples for me. They can tend to have more nutritious understanding and not only doctrinal and self-favoring ideas which we can use to make ourselves look superior to others.

 

[com7fy8]

You also said that false believers are dictatorial or controlling, are those traits that can only be exhibited by non-Christian or can a true Christian also behave in those ways sometime?

Anything I see about someone else could be me, too, more or less. So, this is always an issue in a disagreement. And from what is going on in me, I might get a feel for what is happening in the other person >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

And asking a question like this can help Christians to get more real with God; so thank yu. I'll let your wife give you the hug If you can ask something like this, I'd say you could be getting and developing in things which our Heavenly Father wants all of us His children to understand and develop in.

Ephesians 4:2 helps me >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

God knows we need "longsuffering" for relating with one another who are Jesus family people. Even our really good example leaders still are not perfect; so we need to be ready with loving and caring and compassionate "longsuffering" so we can be there for our most special friends and family members when they are wrong.

 

[com7fy8]

The post said true Christians fear not and act in love, do you think this is not possible for a non-believer?

What the non-believer does can be more self-produced.

I now understand that the Bible means how God changes us to become like Jesus so we live the way the Bible describes and prescribes.

But, also, I have quoted 1 Timothy 4:10 which I understand means that God does bless non-believers . . . somehow, but the blessing can be limited to how they really are, and therefore can benefit from how He would do them good. So, He can help a guy to stop drinking, for one example, and learn not to fear so he is emotionally sober enough to keep off the booze. But how much has his character and other ways really changed for the better so he can benefit in many other ways, also?

We have the most we can have, with Jesus.

But, again, you could ask if I might also be self-producing some of my loving and not fearing. Again . . . a very good question I'll let your wife give you another hug Yes, it could be me, too. So, we keep praying for God to make sure we really are with Him and how His own grace effects our nature. Because we can pick and choose how we want to be corrected. I have seen how someone can pray for correction of something which has started to interfere with how the person wants to live selfishly. For example, one's arguing might turn away love life; so the person who wants to only use others might pray for correction of the arguing, but not for correction of how one wants to use other people. So, yes, even Christians can try to use do-it-yourself correcting in order to adjust ourselves so we can get things we want.

 

[Lazarus Short]

HOLD EVERYTHING! Athee has started with the wrong question, and everybody is trying to give him the right answer when what we need to be telling him what the right question is.

Athee, you claim to be an atheist. If that is true, why all of the focus on the Holy Spirit? You cannot receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while you don't believe in God! First, you have to seek Him. If you earnestly seek Him you will find Him. Then you need to begin cooperating with Him. To do that, all you need to do is to humble yourself and pray. Tell Him that you want to cooperate Him. Most Protestants will tell you that you must accept Jesus into your heart. I don't care what they say, I am only interested in you learning to love God.

Once you have done that, THEN you can worry about how the Holy Spirit works in a believer's life.

My own experience was that the Holy Spirit/Wind/Breath began to do its work on me BEFORE I ever began to seek the Lord. I know this will not sit well with most of the membership here, but that's how it worked. Jesus said, as I posted in my first post in this thread, "the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit." [YLT]

Consider this if you put the will of man on a pedestal - before I had said the sinner's prayer, before I was baptized, saved, whatever you care to call it, I was at a church service and there was an altar call. EVERYBODY went forward...but me. Yet, I could feel a physical force pushing me ever so gently (but firmly) toward the aisle. How to explain that, if we must seek God first? No, I think He seeks us first.

 

[Deadworm]

Let me respond to 2 issues arising from this discussion:

(1) THE SPIRITUALITY OF DIVINATION METHODS:
In the OT Gideon asked for and received signs or "fleeces" before he was willing to embrace God's commission. The 11 disciples used divination in the form of casting lots to pick Judas's replacement (Acts 1:23-26). OT high priests used divination in the form of the Urim and Thummin on their vestments (for their function, see 1 Samuel 14:41). The great Catholic saint, Francis of Assisi used bibliomancy to discern whom he should accept as his disciples. I used it because I was certain that Linda's use of it to justify remaining married to a sexually unfaithful husband was not biblically mandated, but I wanted to demonstrate the unreliability of this divination method before opening up the Scriptures on the subject of divorce. The impact of this on Linda makes me glad I'm glad I did!

(2) The question has been raised as to why God allowed biblical ambiguity instead of giving us a Bible with unequivocally clear systematic theology and life guidelines. That question can be sharpened by asking why Jesus Himself never wrote such a manual, so that the modern dispute about eyewitness testimony in the Gospels could never arise. Add to that the fact that most of Paul's epistles are written to address controversies in various church communities, which we can understand, but not perfectly. No internal church conflict, fewer Pauline epistles!

One answer is that neither Jesus nor the early church envisaged a church age of thousands of years. Jesus and the early church thought He would return soon (e. g. Revelation 22:20), even within the lifetime of Jesus's disciples ( Mark 13:30; Matthew 10:23; 16:28). Thus, the first-century church never envisaged the need for our comprehensive NT canon, Indeed, in the 2nd century there were conflicting versions of what books the NT should contain. Yet by 200 AD a growing consensus seems to have developed in favor of our current canon.

On the other hand, Jesus anticipates this problem to the extent that He promises the guidance of an internalized Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth (John 14-16). These promises raise 2 questions: (a) Must canonical NT books be restricted to those written in the apostolic age? Answer: Theoretically no, though I'm alarmed at the thought of any proposal of a modern book's inclusion. But Luke 1:1-4 seems to acknowledge lost first century Gospels. What if one of them (attributed, say, to Peter was discovered? Could our NT canon theoretically be expanded to include such a Gospel?

(b) Can any written modern doctrinal revelations from the Holy Spirit theoretically be accepted as authoritative, if they go beyond what is explicitly taught in the NT without contradicting our Scripture? Most evangelicals would say no, the NT canon must be restricted to books composed in the apostolic age. But in fact this seems to be an open question and must be subject to the collective discernment of the corporate Body of Christ.

 

[com7fy8]

When you say you might need to table something for later how would you distinguish between finally being mature enough to understand an idea and the process of eliminating cognitive dissonance by forcing an idea to fit within your preconceived framework?

Don't try to force.

And pray and test with God.

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

If I keep getting in problems with people, and if I am stewing and getting bent out of shape about people disagreeing with me, I am at least part of the problem. So, first I need deeper correction, then see how clearly I can see things. Some ideas might stay the same, but how I handle them and share with people will be better. And I trust that God is able to personally have me know what He wants me to understand. This I may not be able to prove to a number of people; God knows if I am right or not.

 

[timewerx]

How do you reconcile those verses you cited with the ones about the church being one body that should be while and united?

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Must be applicable to the true church only. We have lots of denominations with their distinct doctrines. It can't be all of it.

Also imagine when the Apostles are giving those commands, they probably only have one denomination by then although the seeds of division are already being sowed.

....And the Apostles didn't know everything. They still made mistakes.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

Greetings!
Christianity is a growth process. This is why we have passages telling us to bear with the weak and are urge to go on to maturity...Paul, in I Corinthians admonishes some in that congregation as not yet spiritual. I shall list a few here:
Hebrews 6:1-3:
Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.

This may be most clear...

Ephesians 4:11-16:
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Some are led astray while in the faith and need counseling to regain clarity...and there are supporting passages you may ask for...many times the waywardness of a Christian teaches them a life/spiritual lesson and may serve to equip them in their spiritual warfare (how to keep the sinful nature and Satan at bay).

With Christians at different levels of maturity and possessing different gifts it is important to work together and respect authority of Pastors and teachers and respectfully explain when you as a member/follower in a church disagree in doctrine. There are bound to be disagreements and Paul writes (under inspiration) in Philippians something to the effect: if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Our sinful natures can get the better of us to the point that we as followers believe we know better than our teachers...and this can in some instances be the case...it needs counsel.

Some issues are considered debatable and are not worthy of argument.

I hope I presented clearly...let me know how you respond to my comment please.

 

[anonymous person]

Athée, I recommend getting it straight from The Man so to speak.

All we really can do is point you to Him, but in the end, it will be from Him that you receive revelation regarding these things and you will know the truth, and it will set you free.

Oh the joy, God's will to impart, into every blessed soul who opens their heart.

In the meantime we hope to help you as you continue on your journey.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

One very serious problem about forming the perfect religion without error is the lack of evidence to choose between alternatives. In science, one does experiments to test hypotheses. In religion, its impossible to ask a dead man whether his life led him to heaven or to hell. Is Christ of the same essence as the Father? What possible experiment could we conduct to test that? Its the lack of being able to develop information from what we already know due to lack of further information that causes our religious ideas to vary.