Why do Calvinists....

[heymikey80]

The letter is written to a church who call themselvs believers and are not. Remember Mathew 25, not everybody who says and does things in the name of Christ is in Christ. This church is like that and Jesus is pointing out to them that He is still there for them if they will but open their hearts to Him. It is a statement of evangilism. The first part of the passage points out the problem and then the solution is presented.

I would disagree. The church is not identified as being without faith. It's actually identified as being lukewarm as to works, neither cold nor hot. No mention of faith is made.

The church could just as readily be understood as failing its evangelistic ministry, not for its faith, itself.

Note his reference, "I discipline those I love." To me it recalls Heb 12:8. Not everyone is disciplined by God; but those who have faith in Him, He disciplines as sons. This church has a serious problem, doubtless. But it does not appear to reach to the point of the individuals not having -- or losing -- faith.

I miss your point. It is saying that unless you are reborn of the spirit you cannot enter heaven. That is very true and I am in full agreement.

The question of the order of the new birth, works, and faith seems to me to be at odds with how the Rev. 3 passage is saying it -- another reason I see this as verses on assurance and ministry, not on salvation. Rebirth, then faith, then works is how it seems to fall out in other passages. The Rev. 3 passage starts with "I know your works", and expects a response, "if anyone hear and open the door, I will eat with him ...." This is indeed the visible surface result; but it's not what's going on, from God's point of view. They're works, yes. But they're not causative.

Even in the evangelistic version they're visible evidences of what's happened in the heart. There's no work that has to be performed to open a believing heart.

The door is already opened by belief. Credulously trusting (ie, believing) in Who is so clearly real, that's not a work, in my opinion.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Boxmaker,

We believe that the Scriptures teach that God is sovereign over all His creation. This means that there is nothing that happens in the creation that God did not ordain before the creation.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." (Is. 46:9-11)

God has determined the end of this world from the very start. It was locked in at the very start. He brings all His holy will to pass.

The Lord knows everything that is to happen in the creation, because he has ordained it from the beginning. He certainly knows every possible contingency ov every event in all the world every, ewith every person, every moment of every day from the beginning of the world to the end. What happens are the contingencies that he has ordained to happen, even the bad things are ordained by him:

Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it? “For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets? (Amos 3:6-7)

We are near the cusp of where God's Word ceases to guide us and we must bow before the Lord and acknowledge that He is God and His ways are beyond our finding out.

As in Romans 9, there are many other hard things to understand in the Scriptures, But all the Bible is the Word of God and we must believe the very hard stuff along with the things in there that we like and want to hold on to. All is true and all is revealed for His purposes for His people.

We know that the saved "...he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will..." (Eph 1:4,5) We certainly take Pauls statement here to be true and accurate, all how are saved word "chosen" by God "before the foundation of the world" and that all who are saved were "predestinated" unto "adoption" according to "the good pleasure of his will."

This is knowledge that God gives to His people, but it does not cancel out other things that God says elsewhere in the Bible. God has not only ordained who will be saved, but He has also ordained HOW they are to be saved. The HOW is by evangelism. He has commanded His people to preach the Gospel to every creature. We can save no one. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, but God has placed means as well as ends in the creation experiance.

If God ordained that his predestined/elect people should come to Him by his already converted people preaching the Gospel to all the world. We have no idea who will be saved or when the Spirit will move them. That is GOd's business; our duty is to obey our loving God and saviour and do all His holy will.

I hope that helps.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Reformationist]

Yes you can.

Yes I can what? Are you agreeing that we can recognize the spurious nature of your OP or is it that you believe that those who desire to understand reformed doctrince can exhibit the attitude of your OP?

And you are ill equiped to deal with it.

Well, that may be true but, nonetheless, I've been "dealing with it" for quite some time and though I often do a poor job, I believe God has truly blessed many of my reformed brethren with the knowledge to make up for my shortcomings. I learn from them daily and, if you were honestly here to understand what we believe, you'd learn from them too. Your argumentative and belligerant nature shows that that is not your goal.

I can defend my position from the Bible.

Well, you'd be defending your position from your erroneous understanding of Scripture. All manner of heresy can be "defended" in such ways. I don't think such a claim is definitive of anything. If that were enough, you'd believe what we believe, for our position can most certainly be defended rationally.

I can point to verses, keep them in context, and have a discussion.

The Mormons can make the same boast. Does that make them right?

I can give a reason for the hope that lies within me.

LOL! Well, I daresay your theology suggests that you place far too much hope in yourself for this claim to be of any value. Either way, such an ability isn't exclusive to you. It's like telling me that you can walk or talk or breathe. Many can do the same. Why should your ability to do so mean anything to us?

From you I get refered to other books.

You do? Which books did I refer you to?

It does not seem that you can't defend your own faith nor offer a reason for the hope that lies within you.

LOL! So says the guy with 37 posts to the guy with 12611. I've been spreading the good news of the Gospel for many a year and have had no trouble dealing with those who, like yourself, despise any view that removes the focus of salvation from yourself.

So far, Cajun Huguenot has been the most helpful and compeling person on the thread.

He has a habit of filling that role for many of us.

I have learned some very interesting things from him.

As have we all. In light of that, I suggest if you've found someone that is willing to put up with your argumentative nature, especially someone who is as knowledgeable as my dear brother CH, focus on your conversation with him. The Lord knows he is far more equipped than I, both emotionally and in his knowledge of God's Word.

God bless

 

[GodsElect]

This is an interesting post. You accuse me of being unsaved and don't even know me.

I really do not know you as a person, however, I know what the word of God says about testing the spirits to see whether they be true.

1 John 1:4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

And quite frankly, I really do not need to know a person personally to know whether or not they bear fruits of the spirit by what they say and thier actions.

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Yes I know I may be blunt sometimes, but I don't study the word of God looking to appease my appitite for "cherries and sprinkles" I seek to find the truth. And somtimes the truth isn't all that pretty. However, if you are a born child of God, His truth is and looks even more glorious to you more and more everyday of your life.

So how does one be Born a member of boxmaker's family? The Bible says you must be Born Again to see the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:3) How do I become one of boxmaker's descendants? How am I to be born a blood relative? The answer is.. It is impossible for me to do this. I cannot WILL myself into your family to be a blood relative. It is impossible. There is nothing I can physically, mentally, or spiritually do of my own free will to WILL myself and be born into your family. This is what Jesus' words mean when He says... with man, this is impossible, but with God, ALL things are possible.

Matthew 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

You must be born of the Spirit to know and love Spiritual things and to understand the things of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

The question is, Did you born yourself a child of God by choosing Him of your own free choice? Or were you Born of the Spirit done not by your choice but of God's choice in you to WILL and to do for His good pleasure? Thus being born of Him not your WILL.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Thats the GOOD NEWS! We have a sovereign God who's will is being done in all things for all His purpose. For His Glory and our good!

I find that interesting because instead of sharing a message of hope with me, you judge me. I thought God had reserved judgement for Himself.

This is my hope of sharing the message of the Gospel with you. That you reecognize that is not about our free will but it is for God's plans and purposes working within us. To accomplish what He has set to do in His creation from the foundation of the world. My plea with you is that you not be in error in your understanding in the truth of God's word and accept the full sovereignty of the Lord our God.

If I were Judging you I would simply say YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!! But this is not the case by any means!!! Putting a sentence on you that I do not know, nor be the Judge to put such a horrible sentence before you. I simply was stating, by the way you have handled all the gospel given to you, in your outright rejection of the truth and gospel of God's word , I do not know if you a child of God or not. I know you not, but by the fruits you bear. Remember "you will know them by their fruits." I was not judging you friend.

Here is an honest question for you. If God is in charge of everything having to do with our faith, why do Calvinists evangalize? Remember Saul? He had a direct intercession from God on the way to Demascus so God obviously doesn't need us to do His work. Nothing we can say or do has any effect on another persons faith because God must change their hearts and grant them faith. So why do Calvinists evangalize.

As God's children and through His truth me MUST evangalize to the lost. For we do not know which seeds we will plant through the speading of the gospel that we may plant and water but He, if it is His will, grows them up and gives the increase. We do not know whom His children are or will be. That's why the Gospel MUST go out to ALL mankind with great boldness and without hesitation. Whoever says that Calvinist's do not evangalize, just do not understand what exactly Calvin taught. Calvin was known by the scholars of his day as "Calvin The Soul winner". How was this so if Calvin did not evangalize?
Calvinists look still to the word of God to know that we cannot hinder in the spreading of the Gospel.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1 Corintians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

I do not say mans will dominates Gods will. I say Jesus stands at the door of your heart and knocks. Men have a choice, accept Jesus or reject Jesus.

So what your saying friend, is that my mentally handicapped relative is going to perish because he did not open the door to Jesus who has been knocking on his heart??? He could not make such a choice nor understand why he would make it. If you told someone of this nature to open the door to Jesus,they would look at you in utter perplexity. If they understood you at all! So that must mean that they have rejected Christ and are not will not be saved!
I tell you this, when the Real Jesus Christ knocked on my heart and I could DO NO OTHER but to choose Him!!!

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

I could not reject! We are talking about a person (myself) who, a few months previous before the spirit in regeneration of my wicked filthy heart, threw my own father through a glass door for his preaching of the gospel to me in my dead state that DID NOT want to hear the truth!!! I hated God! So you mean to tell me that as a spiritually dead sinner, that had NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to choose Christ, was able to make the choice when I was dead? How can a dead man do anything but be dead!? He cannot choose or make a decision or make himself alive by his own choice! It took only God to call me and breathe a new life into my lifeless, lawless, rebelous, degenerate heart before I even came to believe in Him. I was most certainly lost, but He found me! I was blind so blind and could not understand the words of God, until He gave me sight to see!!! I could do no other but to respond positively to His call.
If you can reject Him by your free will, then reject Him! Can you? You would say, "But I dont want to!" You couldn't reject or resist His gracious call if you were born of the Spirit! If you are a child of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is much more consistant with the New Testament. God knows what our choices will be because He knows us so well, but He does not interfere with those choices. Why would you want the love of somebody you made love you.

As you can see I have quoted much from the New Testament. Our beliefs are not only consistant with the New Testament, Jesus' words on earth and His apostles, but consistant with both Old and New testaments.
God does not have to interfere with our choices, for our choices are free yes, but our will is not as free as you would like to think. We may choose to go right or left but it is for our Sovereign God who has planned this from foundation of the world and has ordained the paths we follow and knows the exact destiny in which we walk. Rejoice! He has done this all for His children for His Glory and our good! Amen! Glory be to Him for all things.

Isaiah 42:16 I will bring the blind by a way they did not know;
I will lead them in paths they have not known.
I will make darkness light before them,
And crooked places straight.
These things I will do for them,
And not forsake them.

 

[Boxmaker]

I really do not know you as a person, however, I know what the word of God says about testing the spirits to see whether they be true.

1 John 1:4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

And quite frankly, I really do not need to know a person personally to know whether or not they bear fruits of the spirit by what they say and thier actions.

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Yes I know I may be blunt sometimes, but I don't study the word of God looking to appease my appitite for "cherries and sprinkles" I seek to find the truth. And somtimes the truth isn't all that pretty. However, if you are a born child of God, His truth is and looks even more glorious to you more and more everyday of your life.

But you don't know my fruits. You know I like to argue theology with other believers, but thats all.

So how does one be Born a member of boxmaker's family? The Bible says you must be Born Again to see the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:3) How do I become one of boxmaker's descendants? How am I to be born a blood relative? The answer is.. It is impossible for me to do this. I cannot WILL myself into your family to be a blood relative. It is impossible. There is nothing I can physically, mentally, or spiritually do of my own free will to WILL myself and be born into your family.

True enough.

This is what Jesus' words mean when He says... with man, this is impossible, but with God, ALL things are possible.

Also true, but it is not act of will in the sense that you say today, I am saved. The Holy Spirit has revealed to your heart, through the law, that you cannot do it. You cannot gain any salvation whatsover by anything you say or do. It is then that you relize your need for a savior and surender your heart (your will) to Him so that He will live you and in you.

Matthew 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

You must be born of the Spirit to know and love Spiritual things and to understand the things of God.[/quote} A absolutly agree. God initiats all things. Men respond.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

The question is, Did you born yourself a child of God by choosing Him of your own free choice? Or were you Born of the Spirit done not by your choice but of God's choice in you to WILL and to do for His good pleasure? Thus being born of Him not your WILL.

I was born of the spirit by responding to God, by saying I cannot do this on my own. I need You in my life as Lord of my life.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Thats the GOOD NEWS! We have a sovereign God who's will is being done in all things for all His purpose. For His Glory and our good!


This is my hope of sharing the message of the Gospel with you. That you reecognize that is not about our free will but it is for God's plans and purposes working within us. To accomplish what He has set to do in His creation from the foundation of the world. My plea with you is that you not be in error in your understanding in the truth of God's word and accept the full sovereignty of the Lord our God.

No, its not about my free will anymore. I have surrendered my will to Jesus. It is not perfect for I still have areas of struggle in my life. But I have surendered my will to Jesus so that He can live in me and through me.

If I were Judging you I would simply say YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!! But this is not the case by any means!!! Putting a sentence on you that I do not know, nor be the Judge to put such a horrible sentence before you. I simply was stating, by the way you have handled all the gospel given to you, in your outright rejection of the truth and gospel of God's word , I do not know if you a child of God or not. I know you not, but by the fruits you bear. Remember "you will know them by their fruits." I was not judging you friend.

By what would you judge me worthy of hell? The fact that I like to argue theology in a sometimes contentious tone? I have never said God is not soverigen nor that He is not in control. The best I can figure, the only real difference between you and me is that you believe that God makes you believe and I believe that God invites you to believe. I find that my belief fits better with the Gospel and the other books of the NT.

As God's children and through His truth me MUST evangalize to the lost. For we do not know which seeds we will plant through the speading of the gospel that we may plant and water but He, if it is His will, grows them up and gives the increase. We do not know whom His children are or will be. That's why the Gospel MUST go out to ALL mankind with great boldness and without hesitation. Whoever says that Calvinist's do not evangalize, just do not understand what exactly Calvin taught. Calvin was known by the scholars of his day as "Calvin The Soul winner". How was this so if Calvin did not evangalize?
Calvinists look still to the word of God to know that we cannot hinder in the spreading of the Gospel.

This may have been a miss-conception on my part but I thought the Calvinist position was that God planted the seed, watered it and made it grow. Of course, much as a gardener uses various tools to tend his garden so to may God use our willing hearts as tools to tend His garden.

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1 Corintians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

Okay, things making more sense.

So what your saying friend, is that my mentally handicapped relative is going to perish because he did not open the door to Jesus who has been knocking on his heart??? He could not make such a choice nor understand why he would make it. If you told someone of this nature to open the door to Jesus,they would look at you in utter perplexity. If they understood you at all! So that must mean that they have rejected Christ and are not will not be saved!

Never said or implied any such of a thing. If you look closely at the Bible it is utterly silent on the mentally handicapped. Biblicaly, I have no answer. But, I trust God. He will deal with the mentally handi capped and those that have never ever heard the gospel in a Holy abd Just way.

I tell you this, when the Real Jesus Christ knocked on my heart and I could DO NO OTHER but to choose Him!!!

Some don't. Some do and then claim to throw Him out later. Are there any people on this forum that claim they were once Christians and then became agnostic? Maybe the real Jesus never knocked, maybe He did.

Never said or implied any such of a thing. If you look closely at the Bible it is utterly silent on the mentally handicapped. Biblicaly, I have no answer. But, I trust God. He will deal with the mentally handi capped and those that have never ever heard the gospel in a Holy abd Just way.

] John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

I could not reject! We are talking about a person (myself) who, a few months previous before the spirit in regeneration of my wicked filthy heart, threw my own father through a glass door for his preaching of the gospel to me in my dead state that DID NOT want to hear the truth!!! I hated God! So you mean to tell me that as a spiritually dead sinner, that had NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to choose Christ, was able to make the choice when I was dead? How can a dead man do anything but be dead!? He cannot choose or make a decision or make himself alive by his own choice! It took only God to call me and breathe a new life into my lifeless, lawless, rebelous, degenerate heart before I even came to believe in Him. I was most certainly lost, but He found me! I was blind so blind and could not understand the words of God, until He gave me sight to see!!! I could do no other but to respond positively to His call.
If you can reject Him by your free will, then reject Him! Can you? You would say, "But I dont want to!" You couldn't reject or resist His gracious call if you were born of the Spirit! If you are a child of God.

When you threw your dad through the door did you have an immedate ephany and BAM God was in your heart and everything changed? Or did you go through a period wondering what you had just done to your father and why? Sometimes these major events in our life finally break us and open our heart to hear God and when we hear, we respond. Most people do anyway.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

As you can see I have quoted much from the New Testament. Our beliefs are not only consistant with the New Testament, Jesus' words on earth and His apostles, but consistant with both Old and New testaments.
God does not have to interfere with our choices, for our choices are free yes, but our will is not as free as you would like to think. We may choose to go right or left but it is for our Sovereign God who has planned this from foundation of the world and has ordained the paths we follow and knows the exact destiny in which we walk. Rejoice! He has done this all for His children for His Glory and our good! Amen! Glory be to Him for all things.

Isaiah 42:16 I will bring the blind by a way they did not know;
I will lead them in paths they have not known.
I will make darkness light before them,
And crooked places straight.
These things I will do for them,
And not forsake them.

Our beliefs are not all that far apart.

 

[Boxmaker]

Hello Boxmaker,

We believe that the Scriptures teach that God is sovereign over all His creation. This means that there is nothing that happens in the creation that God did not ordain before the creation.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." (Is. 46:9-11)

God has determined the end of this world from the very start. It was locked in at the very start. He brings all His holy will to pass.

The Lord knows everything that is to happen in the creation, because he has ordained it from the beginning. He certainly knows every possible contingency ov every event in all the world every, ewith every person, every moment of every day from the beginning of the world to the end. What happens are the contingencies that he has ordained to happen, even the bad things are ordained by him:

Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it? “For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets? (Amos 3:6-7)

We are near the cusp of where God's Word ceases to guide us and we must bow before the Lord and acknowledge that He is God and His ways are beyond our finding out.

As in Romans 9, there are many other hard things to understand in the Scriptures, But all the Bible is the Word of God and we must believe the very hard stuff along with the things in there that we like and want to hold on to. All is true and all is revealed for His purposes for His people.

We know that the saved "...he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will..." (Eph 1:4,5) We certainly take Pauls statement here to be true and accurate, all how are saved word "chosen" by God "before the foundation of the world" and that all who are saved were "predestinated" unto "adoption" according to "the good pleasure of his will."

This is knowledge that God gives to His people, but it does not cancel out other things that God says elsewhere in the Bible. God has not only ordained who will be saved, but He has also ordained HOW they are to be saved. The HOW is by evangelism. He has commanded His people to preach the Gospel to every creature. We can save no one. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, but God has placed means as well as ends in the creation experiance.

If God ordained that his predestined/elect people should come to Him by his already converted people preaching the Gospel to all the world. We have no idea who will be saved or when the Spirit will move them. That is GOd's business; our duty is to obey our loving God and saviour and do all His holy will.

I hope that helps.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

It does. I do not find our beliefs to be all that far apart. The only point we seem to differ on is whether or faith is preordained or not. I think it is not. I think that God knows what our choice will be but that it is not forced by God. We come to points in our life where we relize that we cannot do it without Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. This is God getting our attention. I think that when we come to relize we need Jesus we make a decision to follow Jesus or not. It is a real, meaningful decision on our part that effects our eternal disposition.

As to the matter of evil, God created evil, or at least the possibility of evil. By giving us a free will He gave us the ability to choose between what is right and what is not. God did not ordain every evil act that happens on this planet. Once a person turns t the dark side, the details of the evil are, from Gods point of view, irrelevant. Evil is evil and it will have eternal consequences.

You see, God is not respoonsible for every detail that happens. He is the big picture guy. We work out the details. Why would I say such a silly thing? Consider; If God was responsible for every bit of good that happened there would be no need for us to do any good towards our fellow man. Godd can do it all and do it better than we can. By letting us fill in the details then we can work out our salvation in trembeling. Nor is God responsible for every evil act or desies or accident that occurs. Some people are eveil. Ase for sickness and accedents, well, we live in a fallen and cursed creation. Stuff happens.

So, from the Big Picture prospective, God is in full control and sovergien. He knows what is ging to happen and when. He has revealed some of it to us. As for the daily details in life, God gave those to us so that we can be a light unto the world.

God bless you. Thanks for talking with me.

 

[GodsElect]

But you don't know my fruits. You know I like to argue theology with other believers, but thats all.

Why do you argue theology? I do not care about what kind different types of theology there is. If it is not in the scriptures of God's word, they are preaching "another" gospel. For the gospel tells us...

1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings 5 of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

Galatians 1:7 ...but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold;(Jews from Gentiles) them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 17:11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me (not ALL men), that they may be one as We are.

As you can read for yourself, as children of God, we are to be ONE in Christ as He is ONE with the Father. We are not to debate over the different theologies, but to be ONE in Him. We must not "argue" but rather, reason from the scriptures of truth and be ONE in unity of understanding the truth of the gospel of scripture.

John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

True enough.

Is there such a thing as true "enough" or part-true, half-truth, partial or impartial truth? There is only one truth. The whole truth. God's truth. And we must not argue over which is true, truer, or more true, but seek to understand the ONE truth that is revealed in scripture, in unity, as ONE in Him, as children of God. This is my cry to you, who claim to be born a child of the one true God. If we are among the brethren, we must always seek to understand the truth together if we are brothers in Christ. And NOT come to different conclusions about what is true in scripture.

Also true, but it is not act of will in the sense that you say today, I am saved.

Not for sure what you are trying to say here but, It is never an act of our will in any sense, at any time, that we are ever saved.

The Holy Spirit has revealed to your heart, through the law, that you cannot do it.

You have this a little confused friend. The Holy Spirit has been revealed to our heart through regeneration. Taking out our heart of stone and giving us a new heart of flesh, then we were made alive to see that we transgress the law daily and in need of a savior. Our WILL does not have any part or cooperation or act of accepting, in making itself alive to see our own transgressions against the law. Thus, seeing how much of a sinner we truly are. And brings us to our knees in repentance and Faith. Regeneration, not by our will in choosing or accepting, precedes Faith in Christ. We must be given a new heart FIRST to even want to seek the truth and come to Him as sinners and transgressors of the law.

Romans 3:10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

So who is the one the one responsible for giving us a new heart (regeneration) and coming to and accepting Christ? Us as previously DEAD? or God alone, by Grace alone?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Why would Jesus say that NO ONE can come to Him unless the Father DRAW HIM??? What part does our will have anthing to do with the Father drawing us? Can you say you accepted His choice in drawing you? Or should you say that because He drew you is the reason for your accepting? Who gets the credit? God who draws?(Gods will) or You who accept? (Your will)

Acceptance is the Fruit of the Spirit that draws us to the Son Jesus Christ. How much credit can you give to yourself for God working His will within you? What did our will have to do with God calling upon us?

You cannot gain any salvation whatsover by anything you say or do.

Sounds like you may be starting to understand what what the bible teaches about salvation soley of God. You sound like a calvinist from that statement.

It is then that you relize your need for a savior and surender your heart (your will) to Him so that He will live you and in you.

But have we really surrendered our hearts to God?

Has our wills really been given up by us or submitted FULLY to God? To do His will?...

If this were so, Have you been without sin today?

Have we been perfect as Jesus Christ was perfect?

Will you continue to sin?

If we have submitted fully, why do we still transgress the law and commit sin?

Do we not still carry the filthy rags of our old nature?

Have you spoken well of your Father in Heaven to everyone you met today? If we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, why have we not told everyone we come in contact with today of the impending eternal death and punishment that is due us ALL as sinners and as breakers of God's Law? And about the Great and Perfect Righteousness that Christ has fullfilled that is required to Atone for our wicked ways?
That He became sin for us, so that we do not have to suffer this eternal death, wrath, and judgment?

We cannot say that we have fully commited our wills to God and utterly submitted our hearts to Him. Otherwise, we would not sin. We would be perfect.

Do we not sin against our Father in Heaven everyday?

If we say we are without sin, we would be LIARS! God hates Liars and HATES sin. So, If we say with our lips we love Him with all of our heart and soul, why do we continually sin against Him?

If I died today, and stood before God and He asked "why should I let you into My Kingdom?" if I said "But God, I loved you with all of my heart and soul!" He would say "Then why have you broken the Law that I have given you and commited such sin? Depart from Me you LIAR!" I could not stand before Him and say this! This is why we cry out for mercy! I can only stand before Him and say "Lord I deserve your wrath and your Just punishment for my life of sinful ways Oh Father! have mercy on me!"
We look to His Son and depend on Christ's perfect righteousness, that He perfectly pleased the Father, in whom, I could not stand before and say anything well about my sinful life on earth. Only through Christ's imputed righteousness to us as sinners, that He might stand before me on that day and say "This is the one you have given Me. For whom, I have paid the price. I have paid his debt in full with my blood on Calvary's cross."

I was born of the spirit by responding to God, by saying I cannot do this on my own. I need You in my life as Lord of my life.

Now, let me just ask...

WHAT DID YOUR WILL OR RESPONSE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR FIRST BIRTH???

When did you have to accept your first birth?

What kind of accepting or responding did you do in being born from your mother's womb the first time?

The answer to these questions is...
NOTHING, NOTHING, and NOTHING

YOU JUST SHOWED UP!!! What was then your response to your first birth into this world?... You were alive! You took your first breath! You opened your eyes and saw light! You were given life and brought into this world not of you own will and did not even have to ask to be given life. It was given to you by God through your mother and father and you didn't have to accept ANYTHING about it. You JUST WERE!

So this is the SAME with being born "again". And scripture tells us this...

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"Nor of the will of man"??? Our will did not play any role! We didn't even have to respond. But, we did! we could DO NO OTHER. We were given a new life by the Spirit of God and THEN we were alive and ready to respond positively to His call. Always
remember, Life precedes response.

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

"Has Been" indicates that it HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY (past tense) Regeneration, being Born again all precedes true belief and faith.

No, its not about my free will anymore. I have surrendered my will to Jesus. It is not perfect for I still have areas of struggle in my life. But I have surendered my will to Jesus so that He can live in me and through me.

If you read my above responses to your surrendering of your will to Jesus, hopefully you can see your flaw in thinking here. If you can utterly surrender your will to Jesus, and His will tells us to not sin, will you go and sin no more from this day forward? If your WILL is His, Can your will, that you say is surrendered, live in the freedom of Christ and that your will is not in bondage to sins and the snares of this world? If your will is free and belongs to Christ then why dont you freely NOT SIN. So how really free can your will possilbly be? When all WE do is freely sin against God???

By what would you judge me worthy of hell?

If you would read a little deeper into what I said to you earlier in the sentences after that first statment, I clearly state that I was not making that judgement on you at all.

I will post it again so you may read it for yourself.

If I were Judging you I would simply say YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!! But this is not the case by any means!!! Putting a sentence on you that I do not know, nor be the Judge to put such a horrible sentence before you.

Did you understand me that time???
We as sinners are ALL WORTHY OF HELL!
What makes you think that you are worthy of Heaven???

The fact that I like to argue theology in a sometimes contentious tone?

I think that I have already addressed the arguement of theology issues.

I have never said God is not soverigen nor that He is not in control.

Well friend, when you tell us things like "I was born of the spirit by responding to God" or insisting "I had to first choose Christ to be saved" You directly contradict scripture and the sovereignty of God when it tells us...

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

So I ask you this question...

Is salvation conditional or unconditional???

If it is conditional, Then it means that there is something that we must do to earn our salvation. Upon condition of our decsion in choosing or not choosing, by our good works, or by merited favor of God towards us.

If it is unconditional, which i think that you might say that it is, I know I do as well as other Calvinists, That salvation is not about anything that we do or say or decide to do, not upon whether we do anything to merit Gods favor of love and saving Grace. Which is the essence of Grace itself. Grace means "unmerited favor" "pardon" "mercy" If the bible says we are saved by "Grace" It would be the same as to say we are saved by unmerited favor and beneficience of God alone. Unconditional upon our any of good works. So to say that you had to do, act, respond, accept, or do anything to be born again, thus saved, It would no longer be Grace or unconditional but be WORKS instead. And works we are not saved by.

Epesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.....
I will continue this later...

 

[cygnusx1]

See you on Tuesday. I predict that my family will be in Bush Gardens for New Years and that I will not be on-line till Tuesday. Maybe Monday. NOt sure for the future is not set!

James 4


13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we shall go into such and such a town, spend a year there doing business, and make a profit"-- 14 you have no idea what your life will be like tomorrow. You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears. 15 Instead you should say, "If the Lord wills it, we shall live to do this or that." 16 But now you are boasting in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

 

[Boxmaker]

James 4


13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we shall go into such and such a town, spend a year there doing business, and make a profit"-- 14 you have no idea what your life will be like tomorrow. You are a puff of smoke that appears briefly and then disappears. 15 Instead you should say, "If the Lord wills it, we shall live to do this or that." 16 But now you are boasting in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

I am guessing that the Lord willed it because we did it! I thank God for it to because it was one of the best family vacations we have had in a while and it was desperatly needed.

 

[Boxmaker]

Why do you argue theology? I do not care about what kind different types of theology there is. If it is not in the scriptures of God's word, they are preaching "another" gospel. For the gospel tells us...

As you can read for yourself, as children of God, we are to be ONE in Christ as He is ONE with the Father. We are not to debate over the different theologies, but to be ONE in Him. We must not "argue" but rather, reason from the scriptures of truth and be ONE in unity of understanding the truth of the gospel of scripture.

And we are not.

Not for sure what you are trying to say here but, It is never an act of our will in any sense, at any time, that we are ever saved.

I am saying God gave us the choice to believe or not. He knows what the choice will be, but we do not until we are faced with it. Will I accept Jesus as my savior or not. God gave me this choice. I chose God and have never regreted it.

You have this a little confused friend. The Holy Spirit has been revealed to our heart through regeneration. Taking out our heart of stone and giving us a new heart of flesh, then we were made alive to see that we transgress the law daily and in need of a savior. Our WILL does not have any part or cooperation or act of accepting, in making itself alive to see our own transgressions against the law. Thus, seeing how much of a sinner we truly are. And brings us to our knees in repentance and Faith. Regeneration, not by our will in choosing or accepting, precedes Faith in Christ. We must be given a new heart FIRST to even want to seek the truth and come to Him as sinners and transgressors of the law.

I was refer to Pauls teaching on the law, that is a tool to reveal to us that we can do nothing apart from Jesus.

So who is the one the one responsible for giving us a new heart (regeneration) and coming to and accepting Christ? Us as previously DEAD? or God alone, by Grace alone?

God regenerated me entierly through His grace when I said I said I accepted Jesus as my Saviour.

Why would Jesus say that NO ONE can come to Him unless the Father DRAW HIM??? What part does our will have anthing to do with the Father drawing us? Can you say you accepted His choice in drawing you? Or should you say that because He drew you is the reason for your accepting? Who gets the credit? God who draws?(Gods will) or You who accept? (Your will)

I was drawin by God. I learned that I was destined for the lake of fire and that there was nothing I could do to change that, save one thing. Find out who Jesus is and what He taught. So by God's will I was drawn to Christ and by my will (given to me by God) I accepted Jesus. It is not a work, it is a profesion of faith

Acceptance is the Fruit of the Spirit that draws us to the Son Jesus Christ. How much credit can you give to yourself for God working His will within you? What did our will have to do with God calling upon us?

It is Gods will that whosoever believes will have eternal life (John 3:16) The verse doesn't say that whosoever is made to believe.

Sounds like you may be starting to understand what what the bible teaches about salvation soley of God. You sound like a calvinist from that statement.

Ouch! That hurt!

But have we really surrendered our hearts to God?

Has our wills really been given up by us or submitted FULLY to God? To do His will?...

If this were so, Have you been without sin today?

Have we been perfect as Jesus Christ was perfect?

Will you continue to sin?

If we have submitted fully, why do we still transgress the law and commit sin?

Do we not still carry the filthy rags of our old nature?

Have you spoken well of your Father in Heaven to everyone you met today? If we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, why have we not told everyone we come in contact with today of the impending eternal death and punishment that is due us ALL as sinners and as breakers of God's Law? And about the Great and Perfect Righteousness that Christ has fullfilled that is required to Atone for our wicked ways?
That He became sin for us, so that we do not have to suffer this eternal death, wrath, and judgment?

We cannot say that we have fully commited our wills to God and utterly submitted our hearts to Him. Otherwise, we would not sin. We would be perfect.

Do we not sin against our Father in Heaven everyday?

Yes to all of the above. I would wager significant sums of money that Calvinists have the same struggles as we of the open view do. So does that mean that God didn't want you to be perfect, that your continueing to sin after being elected is somehow better than being perfect?

If we say we are without sin, we would be LIARS! God hates Liars and HATES sin. So, If we say with our lips we love Him with all of our heart and soul, why do we continually sin against Him?

If I died today, and stood before God and He asked "why should I let you into My Kingdom?" if I said "But God, I loved you with all of my heart and soul!" He would say "Then why have you broken the Law that I have given you and commited such sin? Depart from Me you LIAR!" I could not stand before Him and say this! This is why we cry out for mercy! I can only stand before Him and say "Lord I deserve your wrath and your Just punishment for my life of sinful ways Oh Father! have mercy on me!"
We look to His Son and depend on Christ's perfect righteousness, that He perfectly pleased the Father, in whom, I could not stand before and say anything well about my sinful life on earth. Only through Christ's imputed righteousness to us as sinners, that He might stand before me on that day and say "This is the one you have given Me. For whom, I have paid the price. I have paid his debt in full with my blood on Calvary's cross."

Now, let me just ask...

WHAT DID YOUR WILL OR RESPONSE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR FIRST BIRTH???

When did you have to accept your first birth?

What kind of accepting or responding did you do in being born from your mother's womb the first time?

The answer to these questions is...
NOTHING, NOTHING, and NOTHING

YOU JUST SHOWED UP!!! What was then your response to your first birth into this world?... You were alive! You took your first breath! You opened your eyes and saw light! You were given life and brought into this world not of you own will and did not even have to ask to be given life. It was given to you by God through your mother and father and you didn't have to accept ANYTHING about it. You JUST WERE!

So this is the SAME with being born "again". And scripture tells us this...

Strawman argument. My physical birth into this world is completely different than being born again. My physical birth was because of the love my parents shared. My being born again is because of Jesus sharing Gods love with me and me responding to that love.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"Nor of the will of man"??? Our will did not play any role! We didn't even have to respond. But, we did! we could DO NO OTHER. We were given a new life by the Spirit of God and THEN we were alive and ready to respond positively to His call. Always
remember, Life precedes response.

1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

"Has Been" indicates that it HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY (past tense) Regeneration, being Born again all precedes true belief and faith.

Well duh, after you have been born again it is past tense meaning it happend in your past. I do not see an inferance that it happened in the beginning. I know that the Bible teaches that the book of life is as old as creation. God knows our futures, we do not. The choices we make have consequences.

If you would read a little deeper into what I said to you earlier in the sentences after that first statment, I clearly state that I was not making that judgement on you at all.

I was asking what measure you used to condemn me to hell, that all.

We as sinners are ALL WORTHY OF HELL!
What makes you think that you are worthy of Heaven???

Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. I believe it in my heart and confess it with my mouth. Jesus has redeemed my to everlasting life with Him.

Well friend, when you tell us things like "I was born of the spirit by responding to God" or insisting "I had to first choose Christ to be saved" You directly contradict scripture and the sovereignty of God when it tells us...

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

So I ask you this question...

Is salvation conditional or unconditional???

Conditional

If it is conditional, Then it means that there is something that we must do to earn our salvation. Upon condition of our decsion in choosing or not choosing, by our good works, or by merited favor of God towards us.

There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. Gods grace, His unmerited grace and love for each of us, is offered to each person. If we resond to God, acknowledge Him as God and love Him with all our heart, mind, body and soul, God welcomes us home.

Jesus died on the cross that all our sins are behind God, never to be remembered. I believe that this is true for all (meaning each and every) people for all time. We stand before God free if sin under the law. So what sends somebody to the lake of fire? The only sin that is not under the OT law; the sin of rejecting Christ.

If it is unconditional, which i think that you might say that it is, I know I do as well as other Calvinists, That salvation is not about anything that we do or say or decide to do, not upon whether we do anything to merit Gods favor of love and saving Grace. Which is the essence of Grace itself. Grace means "unmerited favor" "pardon" "mercy" If the bible says we are saved by "Grace" It would be the same as to say we are saved by unmerited favor and beneficience of God alone. Unconditional upon our any of good works. So to say that you had to do, act, respond, accept, or do anything to be born again, thus saved, It would no longer be Grace or unconditional but be WORKS instead. And works we are not saved by.

I don't agree. In the open view, you are responsible for your fate after death. It is enterly upon your head. God draws you to Him. He has explained the rules and the consequences and then He lets you make the choice. Under the settled view, your eternal fate is based on whether God likes you or not. The seems inconsistant with John 3:16.

That is the biggest stumbeling block I have with a settled view. I cannot deny that the Bible talks about things that have been laid down since the foundations of the Earth. I cannot deny that the Bible talks of predestination. I just have not been able to squarew the fact that God desires all men be saved with a view that adds the phrase except the ones I don't like.

God be with you and bless you and thank you for talking with me. I'm sure we will continue and I look forward to it.

 

[bradfordl]

the fact that God desires all men be saved

That is an assinine statement, dear engineer. If that were a fact, then all men would be saved, for:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

And...

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Scripture like that must really stick in the craw of those who vainly desire to retain for themselves some small piece of glory for their "decision", some existentialist independence from subservience to the Almighty. They surreptitiously enshrine their own fine discriminating discernment in the temple of their own fine minds. It's just not cricket for God to not allow them to decide their own fates! Who does He think He is, anyway?

Oh, just the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, Almighty and Sovereign Creator. Might be humorous to Him to see a speck of dust with it's fists on it's hips, head wagging, chin out, saying, " I have saved myself!" But that's cool, I'm sure the Lord enjoys a good belly-laugh upon occasion.

 

[Boxmaker]

That is an assinine statement, dear engineer. If that were a fact, then all men would be saved, for:
And...Scripture like that must really stick in the craw of those who vainly desire to retain for themselves some small piece of glory for their "decision", some existentialist independence from subservience to the Almighty. They surreptitiously enshrine their own fine discriminating discernment in the temple of their own fine minds. It's just not cricket for God to not allow them to decide their own fates! Who does He think He is, anyway?

Oh, just the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, Almighty and Sovereign Creator. Might be humorous to Him to see a speck of dust with it's fists on it's hips, head wagging, chin out, saying, " I have saved myself!" But that's cool, I'm sure the Lord enjoys a good belly-laugh upon occasion.

Are you kidding me? I thank God that He loved me enough to come looking for this little lost lamb. I thank God for the salvation He has given me. I have not saved myself, God has saved me!

The best anology I can think of on short notice is this. I was on a small boat that sank. My Father knew that I was in trouble and came looking for me. He found me and threw a life preserver to me that landed right next to me. All I need to do is reach out and grasp that life preserver and my Father reels me in to a nice warm ship and His company. If He had not come looking for me I would be lost. If He had not thrown the life preserver to me I would be lost. If I had not grabbed the life preserver I would be lost.

On the other hand, my Father might be a rescue swimer. When he finds me He jumps in and saves me despite how I may struggle against Him. He knows how to overcome all those struggles. This is harder to deal with if there were two people on the boat and my Father only saved me.

Still, God did lift up Pharo and harden his heart that God might show is might and glory to all the world...

 

[GodsElect]

BOXMAKER,
YOUR ONLY RESPONSE IS JOHN 3:16!!
Do you even read the bible??
If you do, it is clear that the word makes no sense to you whatsoever.
You are a PROUD, BOASTFUL person and YOU Just cant let go of your FREE WILL in choice.
Boasting without end that you played a role in your second birth, and by all the things you say I really must question whether you are BORN AGAIN AT ALL!!!

God regenerated me entierly through His grace when I said I said I accepted Jesus as my Saviour.

WHAT!!!??? You even can contradict yourself in the same sentence.LOL man, you really dont understand what Grace is. I can see that very clearly in you!
You say, entirely through His Grace you were regenerated.
Then you said in the same sentence that when "I said" and"I accepted".
Now where is the logical explaination for this thinking??

How does ENTIRELY by Grace have anything to do with what YOU SAID!!!

Grace= unmerited favor given to men by soley by God. (do you get it?)

Unmerited=nothing we can say or do to earn or achieve something.(do you get it?)

Works=something YOU HAD TO DO. ACT. SPEAK with your lips. Say 10 hail marys to be forgiven.

That sentence says it all for you my friend, You are telling me that you said "ok God I am ready and telling you to go ahead to impart your Grace to me and regenerate me and save me" Thats WORK my friend!!! and NOT GRACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You had to tell God (works) to do these things or grant Him access (works)to HIS OWN CREATION!!!

YOU ARE TOTALLY BLASPHEMING THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD! AND PUTTING THE CREDIT AND GLORY ON YOUR BEHALF, ON YOUR CHOICE, ON WHAT YOU SAY TO BE BORN AGAIN AND WHAT YOU TELL TO GOD TO BE SAVED!

Even if it is 1% of they Glory, God says "I will share my Glory with NO ONE!"

Isaiah 48:11For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.


I really must laugh at your ignorance!!!

Your SOO proud that you cant even admit your pride!

 

[UMP]

He found me and threw a life preserver to me that landed right next to me. All I need to do is reach out and grasp that life preserver and my Father reels me in to a nice warm ship and His company.

Well,
I'll make you a deal. You show me one dead guy who is able to reach for a life preserver and I'll start to listen.

Ephesians 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

 

[GodsElect]

I would really like to hear your explaination of this event. I think everyone would get a kick of you trying to explain something from the bible

Still, God did lift up Pharo and harden his heart that God might show is might and glory to all the world...

 

[Boxmaker]

BOXMAKER,
YOUR ONLY RESPONSE IS JOHN 3:16!!
Do you even read the bible??
If you do, it is clear that the word makes no sense to you whatsoever.
You are a PROUD, BOASTFUL person and YOU Just cant let go of your FREE WILL in choice.
Boasting without end that you played a role in your second birth, and by all the things you say I really must question whether you are BORN AGAIN AT ALL!!!



WHAT!!!??? You even can contradict yourself in the same sentence.LOL man, you really dont understand what Grace is. I can see that very clearly in you!
You say, entirely through His Grace you were regenerated.
Then you said in the same sentence that when "I said" and"I accepted".
Now where is the logical explaination for this thinking??

How does ENTIRELY by Grace have anything to do with what YOU SAID!!!

Grace= unmerited favor given to men by soley by God. (do you get it?)

Unmerited=nothing we can say or do to earn or achieve something.(do you get it?)

Works=something YOU HAD TO DO. ACT. SPEAK with your lips. Say 10 hail marys to be forgiven.

That sentence says it all for you my friend, You are telling me that you said "ok God I am ready and telling you to go ahead to impart your Grace to me and regenerate me and save me" Thats WORK my friend!!! and NOT GRACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You had to tell God (works) to do these things or grant Him access (works)to HIS OWN CREATION!!!

YOU ARE TOTALLY BLASPHEMING THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD! AND PUTTING THE CREDIT AND GLORY ON YOUR BEHALF, ON YOUR CHOICE, ON WHAT YOU SAY TO BE BORN AGAIN AND WHAT YOU TELL TO GOD TO BE SAVED!

Even if it is 1% of they Glory, God says "I will share my Glory with NO ONE!"

Isaiah 48:11For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.


I really must laugh at your ignorance!!!

Your SOO proud that you cant even admit your pride!

[FONT=Arial,mon]There was no work on my part. God did all the work. I responded to His work. Thats all. My salvation is in Jesus, because of Jesus. I don't thank me for understanding that I need Jesus in my life, I thank God for being a patient teacher and constantly presuing me.

We are arguing over the meaning of works. You definition of works is so broad that any thought, any spoke word, anything is a work.

My understanding of works is more in keeping with what the Bible says about doing things for others, helping tho poor and the widows and caring for the prisoners amoung other things. The story of the sheep and the goats (Mathew 25) shows that there are two groups of people doing exactly the same works. One group was doing it because of their faith in Jesus. They didn't even relize they were doing it, they just did what was right because of what was in their heart. The second group did exactly the same deeds but they were doping it to try to gain favour with God, not because they knew God. One group did works because they were goping to heaven and the other did works to try to get to heaven. In either case the works were external to help others. I believe that that is what the Bible means when it speaks of works - things that you do, not what you think.

Peace of Christ be with you!
[/FONT]

 

[Boxmaker]

I would really like to hear your explaination of this event. I think everyone would get a kick of you trying to explain something from the bible

Well then, for your entertainment, here it is.
God is sovereign. He is more than capable of making things come to pass according to His will. He is the potter, we are the clay. He casts the vessels as He will.

This does not change my belief about how God cast His vessels. He cast us with the ability to choose. We do not have infinite choices available to us, but we can choose between the options available to us.

 

[GodsElect]

Here's an analogy, Two guys are floatin on a raft, stranded in the ocean.
one of the guys is severley wounded while the other was DEAD. While the wounded man, after some time, stitched himself up and was healed and boasted and was proud that he kept himself alive. While the other man remained there DEAD on the raft.
Then God came down through the clouds. The man who sewed himself up and was alive said, "Here am I! I need you to save me! Over Here! and God came and said "I only give life to those who are dead, people who are in need of life, a new life. I ALONE RAISE THE DEAD!!!" So He took the dead guy away and breathed His life into the man and saved him, while the proud guy on the raft was left and he floated away. And was later cooked by the heat of the sun. THE END

 

[Boxmaker]

Here's an analogy, Two guys are floatin on a raft, stranded in the ocean.
one of the guys is severley wounded while the other was DEAD. While the wounded man, after some time, stitched himself up and was healed and boasted and was proud that he kept himself alive. While the other man remained there DEAD on the raft.
Then God came down through the clouds. The man who sewed himself up and was alive said, "Here am I! I need you to save me! Over Here! and God came and said "I only give life to those who are dead, people who are in need of life, a new life. I ALONE RAISE THE DEAD!!!" So He took the dead guy away and breathed His life into the man and saved him, while the proud guy on the raft was left and he floated away. And was later cooked by the heat of the sun. THE END

I was spiritually dead and now I am spiritually alive. I have been alive in the flesh for some number of years prior to today and, God willing, I will be physically alive for some number of years to come.

When death entered the garden it was spiritual and physical though not at the same time. A&E died spiritually the moment they ate the apple. Physical death occured some time later.

So the dead guy on the raft had already gone to hace his judgement. The live guy on the raft recognized that he was in serious trouble and could not fix himself. When help came, he responded to the help and was saved. He owes his life to the Person that saved him for without that Person, he too would be dead.

Just a thought.

God be with you.

 

[GodsElect]

did you even read the story??? No he was not saved, He got cooked by the sun. I am done with you and so should everyone else in the forum. You just are soo proud! and do not see. You like to change stuff to best suit YOU and its clear.You didn't have to change my story, but you are PROUD and you did. Just as the word of God you have changed to your liking because it makes you feel better!