Why do Calvinists....

[5SolasinKY]

Can you give scripture to support such a view? examples from scripture?

 

[heymikey80]

So you're saying He doesn't know the future?

Read what I said. The alternative to my position is simply that God doesn't know the future.

Your follow-on example of a satellite being able to pick out the future from a "high view" doesn't account for history.

Pascal demonstrated that even miniscule changes in Creation cause radical shifts in human history. Read the Pensees on Cleopatra's nose.

Punishment for what. All our sins were forgiven. Unless you don't believe Jesus's sacrifice on the cross was not enough to forgive our sins.

So God forgives everyone in your view, because the cross was enough to forgive everyone's sins.

And yet "God appointed a day on which He will judge the world." Which is it? Your view, or Scripture's?

Why is God unfair in His punishment?

Darn the rules! Full speed ahead! Seriously, it can be a good way to get people to think. Sadly, it didn't work here. You completely ignord the point being made and ran off down another path. Pretty typical of the tacktics I have seen other Calvinists use in debates.

It's a good way to get something to happen.

I'm not running down another path. I'm simply answering to your inability to understand the inconsistency of your assertions.

You can complain all you want that the world doesn't work like you want it to. But it still works that way. "And yet, it moves."

Why would you say that? God has created and set it in motion. He gave us free will and allows us to excercise it.

Well, first, it's one huge mistake, is it not? You're accusing God of causing evil. Yet in your view free will has certainly been responsible for all the evil in the world!

If that choice were God's -- it was a bad choice by your assessment so far. Everything perfect, perfect, perfect. And then =argh!= this pesky free will creates evil where God had perfection.

And it was inevitable. Give a limited creature the ability to fall plus eternal life, and somewhere, he's going to make a misstep. This god -- what a mistake.

Okay, this is a first. You are the first person I have ever spoken to that asserts bugs, bacteria and plants have eternal souls. Your anology comes up short.

The analogy is between God and you, friend. Last time I checked, He was infinitely greater than you.

Now, back to the bacterium. Hm. You have an infinite life. You assert God wouldn't be fair. Yet you assert you would be fair because you have an infinite life and the bacterium doesn't.

Let me get this straight, again: God is infinitely above you -- yet He's responsible for your infinitesimal pain? It seems to be a perfect fit. Where's your concern for your brother, the bacterium?

I never said or even implied He was.

Then you have a short memory for what you said.

Ah. OK, let's consider the obvious, since you're judging God. Evil requires an evil motivation. What's God's evil motivation?

Ah. I begin to understand. Evil lies in the motivation, not the action. Thus, an act that would be considered evil may actually be holy if the motivation is correct.

For instance. If I rape a woman because I truely believe in my heart that I can show her how good things can be under God's total control, that act is not evil. My motivations were purely to open her up to God and I truely believed that I was destined to do this so it would not be evil. Bit of a stretch,but maybe. (Yes, this paragraph is inflamitory and is intended to be so. Your belief must be able to explain even the most outrageous actions and this paragraph qualifies as that.)

It was based on your comments and now you are avoiding discussing it. Why?

And then you freely admit you implied that He was.

And I did answer it, pointblank. If you have a problem with an answer don't sit there and accuse me of avoidance. I answered. You're mistaken about the avoidance. You're not telling the truth. Again.

Yes, we have a responsability to the poor and the widows and the orphans. No, I am not perfect at helping them but we do do something, both through our church and some missions we support. As for giving everything away, that would be irresponsable to my family.

Sorry, your description of your responsibility doesn't include any justification for responsibility for the poor.

Your view is incomplete and incapable of judging someone's responsibility.

We are not far apart on this. I think God knows His creation so well that He can know the future without having first planned it out in detail. As for computers, I really don't think God had a direct hand in its creation. I'll change my view if you can show me where it fits in to the two Laws of the New Covenant.

Two laws? Have you noticed that over 1000 commands were given to the New Testament churches and its people?

God knows my circumstances. Did He cause them? No. We live in a fallen creation. Stuff happens. The question is what do you do when stuff happens, blame God or open your heart to God and allow Him to use you in the middle of all that stuff.

If God had changed what He created, they wouldn't be what they were. God produced the effect. You can only accuse the Infinite of evil intent, or evil neglect, by your view of cause == authorship.

Which is it? Was God neglectful in not seeing what evil He has wrought? Or did God intentionally propagate this evil for a greater good?

I have born no false witness. I have heard many things from many people about Calvinism or Setteled View. It has been my experiance that when these people are pressed on their beliefs they end up hurling insults and eventually running for cover.

Making assertions (indeed, 400 year-old assertions) based on hearsay convicts you of gossip, it doesn't exonerate you. It's no wonder why people wouldn't answer with the truth, when you begin with a lie.

Try out the truth sometime. It produces far better results than lying.

And they aren't insults. You wanted to see what a Calvinist would see in your view. You're getting it directly: an assessment of your worldview and point by point removals of its foundations.

I have yet to get clear, consistant answers to what you believe and why. Thats probably why I have so many miss-conceptions because nobody has ever been able to explain it well!

Try "the Reformed Doctrine of Predestination".

The Westminster Confession will describe point-by-point the common precepts of the Puritan view of Reformed theology. The Belgic Confession, the Hiedelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dordt can help you with broader Reformed thought.

If you'd like to engage in the philosophical views that the theology gave rise to, Calvin's "Eternal Predestination" would be a good start as well as Jonathan Edwards' books on the will and choice. Even Luther's "The Bondage of the Will" is a good description.

They will speak more generally and describe the worldview instead of having to contend with your allegations and incendiary language.

 

[heymikey80]

Can you give scripture to support such a view? examples from scripture?

What would you like supported?

1 Corinthians 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
Genesis 2:17: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Romans 5:12: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.
2 Corinthians 1:9: Yea, we ourselves had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead.
Ephesians 2:1-3: And you did He make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom ye also all once lived in the lusts of your flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Ephesians 2:12: Ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Jeremiah 13:23: Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Psalm 51:5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Romans 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good. no, not so much as one.
Job 14:4: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
1 Corinthians 1:18: For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
Acts 13:41: Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
Proverbs 30:12: There is a generation that are pure in their own eye, And yet are not washed from their filthiness.
John 5:21: For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom He will.
John 6:53: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
John 8:19: They said therefore unto Him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father; if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also.
Matthew 11:25: I thank thee, O Father Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes.
2 Corinthians 5:17: If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature.
John 14:16: (And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,) even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you.
John 3:19: And this is the judgment, that light is come unto the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

1PE 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
EPH 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1TH 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
TIT 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1PE 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
JOH 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. ROM 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

JOH 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
1JO 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
2 Thessalonians 2:13: God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
Matthew 24:24: There shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:31: And they (the angels) shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:20: For the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened those days (at the destruction of Jerusalem).
1 Thessalonians 1:4: Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election.
Romans 11:7: The election obtained it, and the rest were hardened.
1 Timothy 5:21: I charge thee in the sight of God, and Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.
Romans 8:33: Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?
Romans 11:5: (In comparison with Elijah's time) Even so at the present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
2 Timothy 2:10: I endure all things for the elect's sake.
Titus 1:1: Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect.
1 Peter 1:1: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect.
1 Peter 5:13: She that is in Babylon, elect together with you.
1 Peter 2:9: But ye are an elect race.
1 Thessalonians 5:9: For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 18:48: And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
John 17:9: I (Jesus) pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me.
John 6:65: No man can come unto me. except it be given unto him of the Father.
John 13:18: I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen.
John 15:16: Ye did not choose me, but I chose you.
Psalm 105:6: Ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones.
Romans 9:23: Vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory.
See also Ephesians 1:4, 5, 11; Romans 9:11-13; 8:29, 30; etc.

 

[nill]

To Boxmaker:

I have yet to get clear, consistant answers to what you believe and why. Thats probably why I have so many miss-conceptions because nobody has ever been able to explain it well!

I only just recently learned that when you want to learn theology, an Internet forum is one of the worst places to try. Since you're dissatisfied with answers from your Internet peers, go read a book instead.

 

[nill]

By that, of course, I mean a book about the doctrines of grace.

 

[5SolasinKY]

Sorry heymikey <5SolasinKY blushes sheepishly>,

I would like scriptural evidence or examples from boxmaker that shows God knows the future only on a divine educated guess rather than because He has ordained whatsoever comes to pass. Thanks for the scripture, though. It does show the position the Author of it takes.

 

[Boxmaker]

Read what I said. The alternative to my position is simply that God doesn't know the future.

Your follow-on example of a satellite being able to pick out the future from a "high view" doesn't account for history.

Pascal demonstrated that even miniscule changes in Creation cause radical shifts in human history. Read the Pensees on Cleopatra's nose.

So God forgives everyone in your view, because the cross was enough to forgive everyone's sins.

And yet "God appointed a day on which He will judge the world." Which is it? Your view, or Scripture's?

Why is God unfair in His punishment?

It's a good way to get something to happen.

I'm not running down another path. I'm simply answering to your inability to understand the inconsistency of your assertions.

You can complain all you want that the world doesn't work like you want it to. But it still works that way. "And yet, it moves."

Well, first, it's one huge mistake, is it not? You're accusing God of causing evil. Yet in your view free will has certainly been responsible for all the evil in the world!

If that choice were God's -- it was a bad choice by your assessment so far. Everything perfect, perfect, perfect. And then =argh!= this pesky free will creates evil where God had perfection.

And it was inevitable. Give a limited creature the ability to fall plus eternal life, and somewhere, he's going to make a misstep. This god -- what a mistake.

The analogy is between God and you, friend. Last time I checked, He was infinitely greater than you.

Now, back to the bacterium. Hm. You have an infinite life. You assert God wouldn't be fair. Yet you assert you would be fair because you have an infinite life and the bacterium doesn't.

Let me get this straight, again: God is infinitely above you -- yet He's responsible for your infinitesimal pain? It seems to be a perfect fit. Where's your concern for your brother, the bacterium?

Then you have a short memory for what you said.


And then you freely admit you implied that He was.

And I did answer it, pointblank. If you have a problem with an answer don't sit there and accuse me of avoidance. I answered. You're mistaken about the avoidance. You're not telling the truth. Again.

Sorry, your description of your responsibility doesn't include any justification for responsibility for the poor.

Your view is incomplete and incapable of judging someone's responsibility.

Two laws? Have you noticed that over 1000 commands were given to the New Testament churches and its people?

If God had changed what He created, they wouldn't be what they were. God produced the effect. You can only accuse the Infinite of evil intent, or evil neglect, by your view of cause == authorship.

Which is it? Was God neglectful in not seeing what evil He has wrought? Or did God intentionally propagate this evil for a greater good?

Making assertions (indeed, 400 year-old assertions) based on hearsay convicts you of gossip, it doesn't exonerate you. It's no wonder why people wouldn't answer with the truth, when you begin with a lie.

Try out the truth sometime. It produces far better results than lying.

And they aren't insults. You wanted to see what a Calvinist would see in your view. You're getting it directly: an assessment of your worldview and point by point removals of its foundations.

The Westminster Confession will describe point-by-point the common precepts of the Puritan view of Reformed theology. The Belgic Confession, the Hiedelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dordt can help you with broader Reformed thought.

If you'd like to engage in the philosophical views that the theology gave rise to, Calvin's "Eternal Predestination" would be a good start as well as Jonathan Edwards' books on the will and choice. Even Luther's "The Bondage of the Will" is a good description.

They will speak more generally and describe the worldview instead of having to contend with your allegations and incendiary language.

I wrote a long reply to this but the rules of this form balked at the link you had in your post.

The short version. You accuse me of being a liar because I asked a question. It was a question the irritated you and that you cannot or will not answer so you call me a liear.

If you would like to continue this discussion PLEASE go back to the OP and respond to that. I think we can have a better discussion that way.

 

[Boxmaker]

Sorry heymikey <5SolasinKY blushes sheepishly>,

I would like scriptural evidence or examples from boxmaker that shows God knows the future only on a divine educated guess rather than because He has ordained whatsoever comes to pass. Thanks for the scripture, though. It does show the position the Author of it takes.

God has ordained parts of the future. He ordained that Christ would come. He ordained what will happen in the end times. Daniel, Isiah and Revelations speak of these. These are not predictions of the future based on what we will do. These are statments of what God will do. There is no statement in the Bible that states God knows everything you or I will do all the time. Heymikey posted a bunch of verses, most of which I would hazard to say, are quoted out of context and do not say what He claims.

Nor is there any statement in the Bible that says God does not know what will happen in the future.

All the Bible claims is what God will do at a future time. That is all!

 

[mlqurgw]

Boxmaker, the god you describe is no God at all. He is constantly having to react to what men do and is thereby controlled by men. Either He is absolutely sovereign or He is not God. Whatever God doesn't control must control Him and that which controls Him is itself God. How do you answer the Scripture that says all things are of God? Rom. 11:36, 1Cor. 8:6 , Rev. 4:11

 

[Boxmaker]

Boxmaker, the god you describe is no God at all. He is constantly having to react to what men do and is thereby controlled by men. Either He is absolutely sovereign or He is not God. Whatever God doesn't control must control Him and that which controls Him is itself God. How do you answer the Scripture that says all things are of God? Rom. 11:36, 1Cor. 8:6 , Rev. 4:11

Well there is a statement that has nothing to do with the sovereignty of God.

Look at it this way. I am an engineer. I work for a small engineering firm owned by one man. My boss hired me because of my education and experiance. He gives my projects to work on. It is up to me to complete those projects. He does not need to stand over me a dictate every possible detail of the project.

God is similar. He gave me gifts. I have given my life to Him. So God gave me a job, share the gospel. He has given me the gifts I need to do it so He lets me do it. I can pray for guidance when needed.

As for predicting the future, I can predict the future as well. I predict that I will take my family to Tampa tomorrow to selidrate New Years at Bush Gardens. Now this is an intereting preditction. It is a valid prediction of the future as it will take place in the future. It will happen regardless of what you think/say/do. It is also a statement of fact. We have booked the rooms and purchased the tickets to get in the gate. But it is still a prediction of future events.

A lot of profecy in the Bible is the same way. It is a statement of what God WILL do in the future therefore it is a prediction. But it is a future that is independent of our actions as God has stated what He will do.

For God to do what he says He will do does not require a detailed knowledge of what each and everyone of us will do every second of our lives.

 

[Boxmaker]

See you on Tuesday. I predict that my family will be in Bush Gardens for New Years and that I will not be on-line till Tuesday. Maybe Monday. NOt sure for the future is not set!

 

[mlqurgw]

Well there is a statement that has nothing to do with the sovereignty of God.

It has everything to do with the sovereignty of God. It is a plain statement of Scripture that you apparently refuse to deal with.

Look at it this way. I am an engineer. I work for a small engineering firm owned by one man. My boss hired me because of my education and experiance. He gives my projects to work on. It is up to me to complete those projects. He does not need to stand over me a dictate every possible detail of the project.

God is similar. He gave me gifts. I have given my life to Him. So God gave me a job, share the gospel. He has given me the gifts I need to do it so He lets me do it. I can pray for guidance when needed.

I guess you are an open theist. The problem with your view is that it has no basis in Scripture. You have imagined a god that suits you but it has no real closeness with the God of the Bible. Your god is far too human. The god you describe must be constantly wringing his hands wishing that men would do his will and let him have his way. He must be constantly having to fix the messes that men make. He is not worthy of worship nor trust because he lets men take care of everything and we know how men screw things up. the god you describe has abdicated his throne and given it to men.

As for predicting the future, I can predict the future as well. I predict that I will take my family to Tampa tomorrow to selidrate New Years at Bush Gardens. Now this is an intereting preditction. It is a valid prediction of the future as it will take place in the future. It will happen regardless of what you think/say/do. It is also a statement of fact. We have booked the rooms and purchased the tickets to get in the gate. But it is still a prediction of future events.

A lot of profecy in the Bible is the same way. It is a statement of what God WILL do in the future therefore it is a prediction. But it is a future that is independent of our actions as God has stated what He will do.

For God to do what he says He will do does not require a detailed knowledge of what each and everyone of us will do every second of our lives.

James would disagree with you. James 4:14,15 You might notice that when God declares what He will do He usually follows it with what you shall do. He says I will and you shall. If He doesn't control every detail then He cannot be trusted to bring about what He has promised. Every thing we do has an effect that is far more reaching than we can imagine. You have no idea as to how many people you influence by what you do. There are many who are watching you that you aren't aware of and make choices themselves based in part at least on how you have influenced them. Your view is one of chaos not of infinitely wise order. Come back when you can prove your god with Scripture.

 

[GodsElect]

I hope that this may shed some light to those who wish to understand or are seeking answers on predestination and the sovereign will of God. And to see that the doctrine of predestination in NO way puts God as author of sin.

Nothing that is good can exist which God did not will to be, and nothing that is evil can exist which God did not will to allow. The will of God goes before all other wills. It does not depend on them, but they depend on it. It's movements regulate them. The "I will" of Jehovah, is that which sets in motion everything in heaven and in earth. The "I will" of Jehovah, is the spring and the origin of all that is done throughout the universe, great and small, among things animate and inanimate. It was this "I will" that was the origin of salvation to a lost world. It was this "I will" that provided a Redeemer, and accomplished redemption. It was this "I will" that begins, and carries on, and ends salvation in each soul that is redeemed. It is this "I will" that opens the blind eye, and unstops the deaf ear. It was this "I will" that awakens the slumberer, and raises the dead.

I do not mean that, merely generally speaking, God has declared His will concerning these things: but each individual conversion, nay, and each movement that forms part of it, originates in this supreme "I will". When Jesus healed the leper, He said, "I will, be thou clean"; so when a soul is converted, there is the same distinct and special forthputting of the Divine will, "I will, be thou converted". Everything that can be called good in man, or in the universe, originates in the "I will" of Jehovah. I do not deny that in conversion man himself wills. In everything that he does, thinks, feels, he of necessity wills. In believing he wills; in repenting he wills; in turning from his evil ways he wills. All this is true. The opposite is both untrue and absurd. But while fully admitting this, there is another question behind it of great interest and movement. Are these movements of man's will towards good the effects of the forthputting of God's will? Is man willing, because he has made himself so, or because God has made him so? Does he become willing entirely by an act of his own will, or by chance, or by moral suasion, or because acted on by created causes and influences from without?

I answer unhesitatingly, he becomes willing, because another and a superior will, even that of God, has come into contact with his, altering its nature and its bent. This new bent is the result of a change produced upon it by Him who alone, of all beings, has the right, without control, to say, in regard to all events and changes, "I will". The man's will has followed the movement of the Divine will. God has made him willing. God's will is first in the movement, not second. Even a holy and perfect will depends for guidance upon the will of God. Even when renewed it still follows, it does not lead. Much more an unholy will, for its bent must be first changed; and how can this be, if God is not to interpose His hand and power?

But is not this to make God the author of sin? No. It does not follow that because God's will originates what is good in man, that it must therefore originate what is evil. The existence of a holy, happy world, proves that God had created it with His own hand. The existence of an unholy, unhappy world, proves that God allowed it to fall into that state: - but it proves nothing more. We are told that Jesus was delivered by "the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." God's will was there. God permitted that deed of darkness to be done; nay, it was the result of His "determinate counsel". But does that prove that God was the author of the sin of either Judas or Herod?

Had it not been for the eternal "I will" of Jehovah, Christ would not have been delivered up; but does this prove that God compelled either Judas to betray, or Herod to mock, or Pilate to condemn, the Lord of Glory? Still further, it is added in another place, "Of a truth against Thy holy child Jesus, whom Thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and people of Israel, were gathered together for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done". Is it possible to pervert this passage so as to prove that it has no reference to predestination? Does it make God the author of the deed referred to? Must God be the author of sin, because it is said that Israel and the Gentiles "were gathered together to do what His counsel had determined"? let our opponents attempt an explanation of such a passage, and tell us how it can be made to harmonize with their theory.

It may be argued that God works by means, in changing the will. "There is no need", it will be said, "that there should be these special and direct forthputting of His will and strength. He has ordained the means, He has given His Word, He has proclaimed His Gospel, and by these means He effects the change. His will does not come directly into contact with ours. He leaves it to these instruments to effect the change". Well, let us see what amount of truth there may be in this. I suppose no one will say that the Gospel can produce the alteration in the will so long as the will rejects it. No medicine, however excellent, can operate unless it be taken. The will of man then rejects the Gospel; it is set against the truth of God. How then is it made to receive it? Granting that in receiving it there is a change, yet the question is, How was it so far changed already as to be willing to receive it? The worst feature of the malady is the determination not to touch or taste the medicine; and how is this to be overcome? Oh! It will be said, this resistance is to be overcome with arguments. Arguments! Is not the Gospel itself the great argument? and it is rejected. What arguments can you expect to prevail with a man that refuses the Gospel?

Admit that there are other arguments, yet the man is set against them all. There is not one argument that can be used which he does not hate. His will resists and rejects every persuasive and motive. How then is this resistance to be overcome, - this opposition to be made to give way? How is the bent of the will to be so altered as to receive that which it rejected? Plainly by his will coming in contact with a superior one, - a will that can remove the resistance, - a will such as that which said, "Let there be light, and there was light". The will itself must undergo a change before it can choose that which it rejected. And what can change it but the finger of God?

continued....

 

[GodsElect]

...continued

Were man's rejection of the Gospel simply occasioned by his misunderstanding it, then I can see how, upon its being made plain, resistance would cease. But I do not believe that such is the case; for what does it amount to but just that the sinner never rejects the truth, it is only error which he rejects, and were his mistake rectified, he would at once embrace the truth! The unrenewed man, then, so far from having enmity to the truth, has the very opposite! So little of depravity is there in his heart, and so little perversity in his will--such instinctive love of the truth and abhorrence of error is there in him, that as soon as the truth is made plain to him, he embraces it! All his previous hesitation arose from the errors which had been mingled with the truth presented! One would think that this was anything but depravity. It might be ignorance, but it could not be called enmity to the truth, it is rather enmity to error. It would thus appear that the chief feature of the sinner's heart and will is not enmity to truth, but hatred to error and love of truth!

Man's heart is enmity to God,-- to God as revealed in the Gospel,-- to God as the God of grace. What truth can there be in the assertion that all the sinner's distrust of God and darkness of spirit arise from his not seeing God as the God of grace? I grant that oftentimes this is the case. I know that it is very frequently misapprehension of God's merciful character, as seen and pledged in the cross of Christ, that is the cause of darkness to the anxious soul, and that a simple sight of the exceeding riches of the grace of God would dispel these clouds; but that is very different from saying that such a sight, apart from the renewing energy of the Spirit upon the soul, would change man's enmity into confidence and love. For we know that the unrenewed will is set against the Gospel; it is enmity to God and His truth.

The more closely and clearly truth is set before it, and pressed home upon it, its hatred swells and rises. The presentation of truth, however forcible and clear, even though that truth were the grace of God, will only exasperate the unconverted man. It is the Gospel that he hates; and the more clearly it is set before him he hates it the more. It is God that he hates; and the more closely God approaches him, the more vividly God is set before him, the more does his enmity awaken and augment. Surely, then that which stirs up enmity cannot of itself remove it. Of what avail, then, are the most energetic means by themselves? The will itself must be directly operated upon by the Spirit of God: He who made it must remake it. Its making was the work of Omnipotence: its remaking must be the same. In no other way can its evil bent be rectified. God's will must come into contact with man's will, and then the work is done. Must not God's will then be first in every such movement? Man's will follows; it can not lead.
Is this a hard saying? So some in these days would have us to believe. Let us ask wherein consists its hardness. Is it hard that God's will should take the precedence of man's? Is it hard that God's will should be the leader and man's the follower in all things great and small? Is it hard that we should be obliged to trace the origin of every movement of man towards good to the will of a sovereign Jehovah?

If it be hard, it must be that it strips man of every fragment of what is good, or of the slightest tendency to good. And this we believe to be the secret origin of the complaint against the doctrine. It is a thorough leveller and emptier of man. It makes him not only nothing, but worse than nothing,--a sinner all over,--nothing but a sinner, with a heart full of enmity to God, set against Him as the God of righteousness, and still more set against Him as the God of grace, with a will so bent away from the will of God, and so rebellious against it, as not to have one remaining inclination to what is good and holy, and spiritual. This he cannot tolerate. Admit that a man is totally worthless and helpless, and where is the hard saying? Is it hard that God's blessed and holy will should go before our miserable and unholy wills, to lead them in the way? Is it hard that those who have nothing should be indebted to God for everything? Is it hard, seeing that every movement of my will is downwards, earthwards, that God's mighty will should come in and lift it omnipotently upwards, heavenwards?

If I admit that God's will regulates the great movements of the universe I must admit that it equally regulates the small. It must do this, for the great depend upon the small. The minutest movement of my will is regulated by the will of God. And in this I rejoice. Woe is me if it be not so. If I shrink from so unlimited control and guidance, it is plain that I dislike the idea of being wholly at the disposal of God. I am wishing to be in part at my own disposal. I am ambitious of regulating the lesser movements of my will, while I give up the greater to His control. And thus it comes out that I wish to be a god to myself. I do not like the thought of God having all the disposal of my destiny. If He gets His will, I am afraid that I shall not get mine. It comes out, moreover, that the God about whose love I was fond of speaking, is a God to whom I cannot trust myself implicitly for eternity.

Yes, this is the real truth. Man's dislike at God's sovereignty arises from his suspicion of God's heart. And yet the men in our day, who deny this absolute sovereignty, are the very men who profess to rejoice in the love of God,--who speak of that love as if there were nothing else in God but love. The more I understand of the character of God, as revealed in Scripture, the more shall I see that He must be sovereign, and the more shall I rejoice from my inmost heart that He is so.

It was God's sovereign will that fixed the time of my birth. It is the same will that has fixed the day of my death. And was not the day of my conversion fixed as certainly by the same will? Or will any but "the fool" say that God has fixed by His will the day of our birth and death, but leaves us to fix the day of our conversion by our own will; that is, leave us to decide whether we shall be converted or not? If the day of conversion be fixed, then it cannot be left to be determined by our own will. God determined, where and when, and how we should be born; and so He has determined where, and when, and how we shall be born again. If so, His will must go before ours in believing; and it is just because His will goes before ours that we become willing to believe. Were it not for this, we should never have believed at all. If man's will precedes God's will in everything relating to himself, then I do not see how any of God's plans can be carried into effect. Man would be left to manage the world in his own way. God must not fix the time of his conversion, for that would be an interference with man's responsibility. Nay, He must not fix that he shall be converted at all, for that must be left to himself and to his own will. He must not fix how many are to be converted, for that would be making His own invitation a mere mockery, and man's responsibility a pretence!

He may turn a stray star into its course again by a direct forth-putting of power, and be unchallenged for interference with the laws of nature. But to stretch out His arm and arrest a human will in its devious course, so as to turn it back again to holiness, is an unwarrantable exercise of His power, and an encroachment upon man's liberty! What a world! where man gets all his own way, where God is not allowed to interfere, except in the way that man calls lawful! What a world! where everything turns upon man's will;--where the whole current of events in the world or in the church is regulated, shaped, impelled by man's will alone. God's will is but a secondary thing. Its part is to watch events, and follow in the track of man's! Man wills, and God must say--Amen!

In all this opposition to the absolute will of God, we see the self-will of the last days manifesting itself. Man wanted to be a god at the first, and he continues the struggle to the last. He is resolved that his will shall take the precedence of God's. In the last Antichrist, this self-will shall be summed up and exhibited. He is the king that is to do "according to his will". And in the freewill controversy of the day, we see the same spirit displayed. It is Antichrist that is speaking to us, and exhorting us to proud independence. Self-will is the essence of anti-christian religion. Self-will is the root of bitterness, that is springing up in the churches in these days. And it is not from above, it is from beneath. It is earthly, sensual, devilish.

THUS SAITH THE LORD:
"I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy"--Exodus 33:19. (see also Romans 9:8-24)
"I, even I, am He, and there is no God with Me. I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand"--Deut. 32:39.
"Behold He breaketh down, and it cannot be built again; He shutteth up a man, and there can be no opening"--Job 12:14.
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou?"--Dan. 4:35.
"Who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesus before the world began?" --II Tim. 1:9.

 

[heymikey80]

I wrote a long reply to this but the rules of this form balked at the link you had in your post.

The short version. You accuse me of being a liar because I asked a question. It was a question the irritated you and that you cannot or will not answer so you call me a liear.

If you would like to continue this discussion PLEASE go back to the OP and respond to that. I think we can have a better discussion that way.

Nope. I accused you of lying because you began your question with an assertion, Boxmaker. That assertion is false -- ergo, an error. You maintain the assertion in the face of its rejection by those who are confirmed to know the theology you're making false assertions about.

Ergo, a lie.

The question doesn't irritate me. It's the presumption. You're saying something that's at least 400 years old. It's been denied repeatedly and at length. And somehow you think the question itself contains its own truth.

Meanwhile, your version doesn't comport with what Scripture says, and you don't care to discuss it or learn about other views. Again, that's the point of this forum. If you want a debate, go elsewhere. If you want to know a fact about Calvinism, this is where to ask about it.

I think we can have a better discussion when you don't haul presumptions into your questions. Doing so is inflammatory and violates the posting rules here.

I've already responded directly to the opening post. And you've left my response to your extended responses hanging.

 

[heymikey80]

God has ordained parts of the future. He ordained that Christ would come. He ordained what will happen in the end times. Daniel, Isiah and Revelations speak of these. These are not predictions of the future based on what we will do. These are statments of what God will do. There is no statement in the Bible that states God knows everything you or I will do all the time. Heymikey posted a bunch of verses, most of which I would hazard to say, are quoted out of context and do not say what He claims.

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Pr 16:33
​

I'll await you to check into the context of a verse.

Nor is there any statement in the Bible that says God does not know what will happen in the future.

All the Bible claims is what God will do at a future time. That is all!

O LORD, you have searched me and known me!
You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it.
Where shall I go from your Spirit?
Or where shall I flee from your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
If I take the wings of the morning
and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
even there your hand shall lead me,
and your right hand shall hold me.
If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me,
and the light about me be night,"
even the darkness is not dark to you;
the night is bright as the day,
for darkness is as light with you.

For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there were none of them.
Ps 139:1-16

​

 

[Boxmaker]

Boxmaker, the god you describe is no God at all. He is constantly having to react to what men do and is thereby controlled by men. Either He is absolutely sovereign or He is not God. Whatever God doesn't control must control Him and that which controls Him is itself God. How do you answer the Scripture that says all things are of God? Rom. 11:36, 1Cor. 8:6 , Rev. 4:11

sov·er·eign
1.a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
2.a person who has sovereign power or authority.
3.a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.
4.a gold coin of the United Kingdom, equal to one pound sterling: went out of circulation after 1914. &#8211;adjective
5.belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6.having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7.supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8.greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9.being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.
10.efficacious; potent: a sovereign remedy.

There is nothing in the above definitions that says sovereign must control every detail or be controlled by them. It means the one in absolute charge. Again, my boss does not have to micro-manage everything I do to get the right outcome. Nor does God.

God does not have to react to man. Mans actions for good or evil, are within Gods creatioin. He has made provisions for those who believe and those whe don't.

Here is a question for you. It is Gods will that all men be saved. It is Gods sovereign will that all men be saved. (1 Timothy 2:3-5 (New International Version) 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,) Why do so many turn away from God if His sovereign will wants them saved?

 

[Boxmaker]

I hope that this may shed some light to those who wish to understand or are seeking answers on predestination and the sovereign will of God. And to see that the doctrine of predestination in NO way puts God as author of sin.

continued....

This is close to what I believe. God initiates and we respond. God is the author of our salvation. Jesus stands at the door of our heart and knocks. It is up to us to respond. Once we accept Christ we die to our selvs and allow Jesus to live in us and through us. We subjegate our will to Gods. Nut not perfectly. What part of your life do you keep for yourself? Money? Work? Religion?

 

[Boxmaker]

...continued
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The second part of this essay I have some problem with. If God is responsible for all the good, why is there so little of it? We have terrible problems with poverty, drug abbuse, unwanted pregnancies, homelessness, and the list goes on. If God, creator of the universe is incharge of all good, why is there so little good. If God is responsible for all that is good why did Jesus charge us with caring for the least amoung us?

In short, God is not responsible for everything that is good. He is the well spring from which goodness flows. We are responsible for carrying out His desire. For GOd were doing it all there would be nothing left for us to do. We matter to God. Our faith matters to God. Remember 2 Timothy: Faith without works is dead. That means that the kind of faith that saves is the kind of faith from which works grow. We do not do good works to get to heaven, we do good works because we are already going to heaven. Mathew 25 supports this.

 

[Boxmaker]

...continued
[/size][/font]

The second part of this essay I have some problem with. If God is responsible for all the good, why is there so little of it? We have terrible problems with poverty, drug abbuse, unwanted pregnancies, homelessness, and the list goes on. If God, creator of the universe is incharge of all good, why is there so little good. If God is responsible for all that is good why did Jesus charge us with caring for the least amoung us?

In short, God is not responsible for everything that is good. He is the well spring from which goodness flows. We are responsible for carrying out His desire. For GOd were doing it all there would be nothing left for us to do. We matter to God. Our faith matters to God. Remember 2 Timothy: Faith without works is dead. That means that the kind of faith that saves is the kind of faith from which works grow. We do not do good works to get to heaven, we do good works because we are already going to heaven. Mathew 25 supports this.