Why do Calvinists....

[GrinningDwarf]

It makes the great commission a farce because your witnessing does not matter. The person to who you speak is already predestined no matter what you do.

This is just iron-clad proof that you still don't get it. Calvinism does not...and has never taught...this. You are still reading the Scriptures through the filter of twentieth century humanist philosophy that we all grew up with. As long as you believe what you said right here, you just aren't getting it. Try reading Chosen By God by RC Sproul. I never really understood Calvinism until I read that one, and then everything fell into place. One thing in particualar Sproul says in that book...RC Sproul mentions the president of a Presbyterian seminary who took pride in the fact that he was not a Calvinist. The seminary president said, “I am not a Calvinist because I do not believe that God brings some people, kicking and screaming against their wills, into the kingdom, while He excludes others from His kingdom who desperately want to be there.”

I thought Sproul’s response to this was illuminating. “I was astonished when I heard those words. I did not think it possible that the president of a Presbyterian seminary could have such a gross misconception of his own church’s theology. He was reciting a caricature which was as far away from Calvinism as one could get. Calvinism does not teach and has never taught that God brings people kicking and screaming into the kingdom or has ever excluded anyone who wanted to be there.”

This was certainly a surprise to me. That was certainly how I’d always understood Calvinism, even after it was explained to me by Calvinists, and they always seemed to insist that this is indeed the truth, that it is not open to interpretation or modification, and if one doesn’t like it...well...that’s too bad, because that’s just the way it is. Then here was Sproul saying that this was not really Calvinism at all! I decided to take a closer look at what Sproul had to say. I admit that when I started, the deck was stacked in my mind against the Reformed perspective. I was certain Calvinism would turn out to be wrong, because I couldn’t imagine any way salvation could work other than the way I had been taught to interpret the scriptures , but I wanted to have a correct understanding of exactly what I was refuting. If I was going to reject a point of view...and an important view from church history...I wanted to be able to reject the real view and not just the caricature of that view.

 

[Boxmaker]

See ya Box, I just don't like your tone anymore.

And your tone was any better?

 

[Boxmaker]

Boxmaker-how come you were more willing to accept Jesus when other people are not willing to accept Jesus? What special quality or circumstance did God bless you with?

God revealed to me that I cannot do it without His Son as Lord of my life. I looked at where my life was going and saw the God was right. So I opened my heart to Jesus. No special quality, no special willingness. Just Gods truth and a human heart the God made to respond to that truth.

 

[bradfordl]

God revealed to me that I cannot do it without His Son as Lord of my life. I looked at where my life was going and saw the God was right. So I opened my heart to Jesus. No special quality, no special willingness. Just Gods truth and a human heart the God made to respond to that truth.

Emphasis mine. So why did God make yours able to respond and not your unsaved neighbor's?

Brad

 

[bradfordl]

Ultimatly, a predestined view of the world means that nothing you do matters.

No, that is a fatalist view. Huge difference.

The verses say that men can choose to obey God or not and God will respond accordingly. That impies that God gave men the ability to choose. God is faithful to and blesses those you oeby Him and punishes those who do not.

Box, you commit the common fallacy of confusing freedom with ability. The two are not the same. Are you free to throw a football a mile? Yes. Can you? No. Men are free to obey God prior to regeneration (an act of God alone), but they are not able, as you have seen in the many verses quoted for you in this thread. And yes, God commands men to do things they are free to do, but not able to do. And yes, that is difficult to swallow given our cultural ideas of what's fair and love of individualism. But it is true, and Paul said so in Romans 9. He also anticipated your response there, as has been pointed out to you ad nauseum. You seem to value your own understanding above what God has said. Is that the position a child of God's should take?

I'm sorry but I cannot reconcile the verses you quote with the whole of scripture.

Of course you can't. Because your pre-suppositions are at odds with that scripture.

Brad

 

[Boxmaker]

This is just iron-clad proof that you still don't get it. Calvinism does not...and has never taught...this. You are still reading the Scriptures through the filter of twentieth century humanist philosophy that we all grew up with. As long as you believe what you said right here, you just aren't getting it. Try reading Chosen By God by RC Sproul. I never really understood Calvinism until I read that one, and then everything fell into place. One thing in particualar Sproul says in that book...RC Sproul mentions the president of a Presbyterian seminary who took pride in the fact that he was not a Calvinist. The seminary president said, “I am not a Calvinist because I do not believe that God brings some people, kicking and screaming against their wills, into the kingdom, while He excludes others from His kingdom who desperately want to be there.”

I thought Sproul’s response to this was illuminating. “I was astonished when I heard those words. I did not think it possible that the president of a Presbyterian seminary could have such a gross misconception of his own church’s theology. He was reciting a caricature which was as far away from Calvinism as one could get. Calvinism does not teach and has never taught that God brings people kicking and screaming into the kingdom or has ever excluded anyone who wanted to be there.”

This was certainly a surprise to me. That was certainly how I’d always understood Calvinism, even after it was explained to me by Calvinists, and they always seemed to insist that this is indeed the truth, that it is not open to interpretation or modification, and if one doesn’t like it...well...that’s too bad, because that’s just the way it is. Then here was Sproul saying that this was not really Calvinism at all! I decided to take a closer look at what Sproul had to say. I admit that when I started, the deck was stacked in my mind against the Reformed perspective. I was certain Calvinism would turn out to be wrong, because I couldn’t imagine any way salvation could work other than the way I had been taught to interpret the scriptures , but I wanted to have a correct understanding of exactly what I was refuting. If I was going to reject a point of view...and an important view from church history...I wanted to be able to reject the real view and not just the caricature of that view.

We were created in God's image. What exactly doe that mean? Do we look like God? None of us know the answer to that but I don't think it likely. No man can look upon the face of God but we can look at each other so it seems we were not created in the physical image of God.

If we were not created in the phjysical image of God, were we created in God's spiritual image? Seems more likely. We were created to live with God in the Garden. To walk and talk with Him there. Things didn't work out that way. Why? Adam and Eve sinned. Why? Well, God is a spirit and has a will, a totally soverigien will. When He created His angles and man He created us with a will. Not a soverigein will but a free will, free to choose from the choices available to us. This could be one aspect of being created in God's image. God has will so He created in us a will. That created will in us, and the angles, created the possibility for evil and some of the anngles and man found that evil.

God could have laid everything down from before the foundatioins of the world were laid. But the Gospels, the acts and the epistles read like letters to people who have a choice to make.

 

[Boxmaker]

Emphasis mine. So why did God make yours able to respond and not your unsaved neighbor's?

Brad

God did not make my heart any different than my neighbors. Both of us hear the same message and responde differently. The difference is pride. I see the futility of life without God. My neighbor may see the same thing but is determined that by their own works, they will suceed.

God made ALL hearts able to responde to Him but He dose not force that response (or predestine it)/

 

[bradfordl]

not.

God could have laid everything down from before the foundatioins of the world were laid. But the Gospels, the acts and the epistles read like letters to people who have a choice to make.

Only because you read it with your erroneous pre-suppositions.

Not a soverigein will but a free will, free to choose from the choices available to us.

We have a free will, but as I pointed out earlier, freedom and ability are not the same. A cat is free to bark if it so desires, but is not able due to it's anatomy - its not a dog.

Don't remember the latin, but as I recall Augustin said there were four estates of man:

1. Before the fall - able to not sin, able to sin
2. After fall, before regeneration - able to sin, not able to not sin
3. After regeneration, before heaven - able to not sin, able to sin
4. In heaven - able to not sin, not able to sin

Ability and freedom are not the same.

Brad

 

[Boxmaker]

No, that is a fatalist view. Huge difference.

If your final destination has been predetermined by God then nothing you do matters. You will end up there no matter what you do or don't do. The destination is predetermined so the path becomes irrelevant. All the suffering you go through has no effect on those who see you bearing it with a grace born of God because their destination has also been predetermined.

Box, you commit the common fallacy of confusing freedom with ability. The two are not the same. Are you free to throw a football a mile? Yes. Can you? No. Men are free to obey God prior to regeneration (an act of God alone), but they are not able, as you have seen in the many verses quoted for you in this thread. And yes, God commands men to do things they are free to do, but not able to do. And yes, that is difficult to swallow given our cultural ideas of what's fair and love of individualism. But it is true, and Paul said so in Romans 9. He also anticipated your response there, as has been pointed out to you ad nauseum. You seem to value your own understanding above what God has said. Is that the position a child of God's should take?

I have never said I have unlimited choices only that we have the free will to choose between the options laid before us.

Of course you can't. Because your pre-suppositions are at odds with that scripture.

No, its not.

Brad[/quote]

 

[bradfordl]

God made ALL hearts able to responde to Him but He dose not force that response (or predestine it)/

1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[bradfordl]

If your final destination has been predetermined by God then nothing you do matters. You will end up there no matter what you do or don't do. The destination is predetermined so the path becomes irrelevant. All the suffering you go through has no effect on those who see you bearing it with a grace born of God because their destination has also been predetermined.

It all glorifies God, which is the chief aim of man's existence.

Brad

 

[Boxmaker]

1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Paul is speaking to believers, those that have accepted Jesus as their saviour and have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is no doubt that once you receive the Holy Spirit many things become clear and your understanding of God's word greatly increases.

Prior to that you do lack the ability to clearly understand Gods word and it does appear folly. But you can still understand that your life sucks and God does offer something better. How much better remains a mystery until the Holy Spirit comes and fills the God shaped hole in our hearts.

 

[Boxmaker]

1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Paul is speaking to believers, those that have accepted Jesus as their saviour and have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is no doubt that once you receive the Holy Spirit many things become clear and your understanding of God's word greatly increases.

Prior to that you do lack the ability to clearly understand Gods word and it does appear folly. But you can still understand that your life sucks and God does offer something better. How much better remains a mystery until the Holy Spirit comes and fills the God shaped hole in our hearts.

 

[Boxmaker]

1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Paul is speaking to believers, those that have accepted Jesus as their saviour and have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is no doubt that once you receive the Holy Spirit many things become clear and your understanding of God's word greatly increases.

Prior to that you do lack the ability to clearly understand Gods word and it does appear folly. But you can still understand that your life sucks and God does offer something better. How much better remains a mystery until the Holy Spirit comes and fills the God shaped hole in our hearts.

 

[Boxmaker]

1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Paul is speaking to believers, those that have accepted Jesus as their saviour and have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is no doubt that once you receive the Holy Spirit many things become clear and your understanding of God's word greatly increases.

Prior to that you do lack the ability to clearly understand Gods word and it does appear folly. But you can still understand that your life sucks and God does offer something better. How much better remains a mystery until the Holy Spirit comes and fills the God shaped hole in our hearts.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Paul is speaking to believers, those that have accepted Jesus as their saviour and have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There is no doubt that once you receive the Holy Spirit many things become clear and your understanding of God's word greatly increases.

Prior to that you do lack the ability to clearly understand Gods word and it does appear folly. But you can still understand that your life sucks and God does offer something better. How much better remains a mystery until the Holy Spirit comes and fills the God shaped hole in our hearts.

You are still reading through the filter of twentieth century humanist philosophies. You are blatantly disregarding verse 14:

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

What part of "does not accept" do you think should mean "can accept"?

 

[Boxmaker]

You are still reading through the filter of twentieth century humanist philosophies. You are blatantly disregarding verse 14:

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

What part of "does not accept" do you think should mean "can accept"?

Do you undertand how your TV works? How the data is encoded and decoded, how errors are handled? How the color picture is generated? Can you see that it works?

The kingdom of God is similar. Until you are in it you don't understand it but looking at it from outside reveals that it is a kingdom and that it is attractive.

You do not have to understand something to that it is there. The verse is talking more about Gods commands to than about the kingdom. When we accept Christ we are to be servents to each others. We should put their needs ahead of our own. Our selfish world view does not understand why we would the needs of others ahead of our own. From within the kingdom we see that we love others as Chrsit loved us because Jesus loved us first.

 

[GodsElect]

There is no doubt that once you receive the Holy Spirit many things become clear and your understanding of God's word greatly increases.

Yes I would agree with you on this statement. So why do you still not understand the word of God?

Prior to that you do lack the ability to clearly understand Gods word and it does appear folly. But you can still understand that your life sucks and God does offer something better.

Prior to understanding the word of God, I don't know about you but I loved my sinful life and fullfilling of all my earthly desires and frankly, my life didn't suck all that bad, I loved my sin and my lawlessness.
However, God didn't just "offer" me anything, He alone gave me a new heart before I even wanted to put to death my sinful ways and desires. He gave me understanding to realize how I was living was displeasing to Him and to heed the call of my God. If it were up to my sinful "free will" to choose Him I would not even be speaking to you right now on a christian forum.

It was never about my sinful natured will, If God had not changed my or your will FIRST there would be NO CHOOSING HIM.

You can go on and continue to say that it is your actions that drives the will to do.

But I know that it is the will that drives the action to do.

And how would my or your sinful lawless will, prior to any understanding of God, do any thing but willingly sin against God and not think twice about it?

Who gave you the will to turn to God when your will was to, prior to understanding, willingly live a life of utter disobedience to God?

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

 

[bradfordl]

When we accept Christ we are to be servents to each others.

1Co 2:14a The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God

Man, you are stubborn. You continue to argue contradictory premises even when the scripture is right in front of you. You must not be able to see the hilarity of your position. This is like trying to convince a blind man that the sky is blue when he has decided it is green regardless of all evidence to the contrary. You claim to be an engineer, which requires the use of mathematics and logic, and yet obstinately refuse to accept the plain, unassailable truth of scripture. Your pre-suppositions are founded on the erroneous ideas that freedom and ability are synonymous, that humans deserve a "fair chance" other than hell from God, and that God would somehow need love for him to arise out of free-will for it to have value. God desires that unregenerate men love Him and glorify Him, but that is like me wanting my cat to bark. Now I can't change my cat in such a way that would enable him to do that, although if he had the ability, he's free to try. But God is certainly capable of changing men in such a way that would enable them to love and glorify Him, and He does that very thing to those He chose before the foundations of the world. He owes that to no-one, so it is never "unfair" for Him not to. He cannot need "free-will" love from His children before He carries out this change, because they are incapable of it without that change. Just like my cat can't bark.

Keep wrestling, I did too. Heard the truth of God's election of His saints from a Reformed Baptist preacher/ barber during a hair cut. Had been wrestling with the book of Romans the night before, and what he said made so much sense, but it seemed repulsive to me. I went the next Sunday for the first time to a Nazarene church where the preacher scoffed at that silly "tulip" theology in his sermon. I stuck around for two years trying to hear an explanation that would refute that silly tulip stuff, until the final straw was sitting through a study of Ephesians where the two teachers kept saying "what Paul really meant" was always something different than the plain meaning. It was almost hilarious. I finally had to give up and accept that God was sovereign, that natural man was incapable of saving faith, and that God chose beforehand who would be His and who would not.

You will someday, too. That's why you're here wrangling with us.

Brad

 

[Boxmaker]

Yes I would agree with you on this statement. So why do you still not understand the word of God?

Prior to understanding the word of God, I don't know about you but I loved my sinful life and fullfilling of all my earthly desires and frankly, my life didn't suck all that bad, I loved my sin and my lawlessness.
However, God didn't just "offer" me anything, He alone gave me a new heart before I even wanted to put to death my sinful ways and desires. He gave me understanding to realize how I was living was displeasing to Him and to heed the call of my God. If it were up to my sinful "free will" to choose Him I would not even be speaking to you right now on a christian forum.

It was never about my sinful natured will, If God had not changed my or your will FIRST there would be NO CHOOSING HIM.

You can go on and continue to say that it is your actions that drives the will to do.

But I know that it is the will that drives the action to do.

And how would my or your sinful lawless will, prior to any understanding of God, do any thing but willingly sin against God and not think twice about it?

Who gave you the will to turn to God when your will was to, prior to understanding, willingly live a life of utter disobedience to God?

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Okay. I agree with you. If God had not changed my heart to open my eyes to how bad of shape I was in, I would never have known. Like you, I really enjoyed some of my sin. So God moved in my heart and I saw that I would end up in hell if I didn't do something. That something was Jesus. That is when I said to Jesus, "I can't do this without as Lord of me life." I chose Jesus at that time.

I did not mean to imply that God does not change hearts. I guess I was being a bit bull headed. God is the only one who can change hearts. The only real difference I see between us is when the change of heart occurs, if you will. I see Jesus and the apostle speak to us all to share the good news and tell us all about what it means to know Jesus as your saviour. People hear thaat truth and God works in their hearts and they either accept that truth or reject it.

I would summerize your beliefe by saying God determined that you would be saved before the earth was formed.

I see man as having a roll in his salvation by having to respond to God. You see man as having no meaningful roll in his salvation.

God created us to love and worship him. No meaningful love or worship can take place if it is only a preprogrammed action.