Why do Calvinists....

[Boxmaker]

Here is an interesting passage:

Jeremiah 18:7-10 (NIV)

7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Now what is interesting about this verse is that God can and will change His plans. It also uses the word IF a lot. If everthing has been predetermined, why does God say that He can change His mind based the actions of a kingdom or nation.

 

[Beoga]

Here is an interesting passage:

Jeremiah 18:7-10 (NIV)

7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Now what is interesting about this verse is that God can and will change His plans. It also uses the word IF a lot. If everthing has been predetermined, why does God say that He can change His mind based the actions of a kingdom or nation.

Is God the same yesterday, today, and forever? If He changes His mind, are all His ways perfect, including His decisions?
The way I understand this passage to mean, in light of other Scriptures saying that God does not change, is that God is declaring that under certain circumstances at certain times, God will do a certain action. If these certain circumstances change at certain times, God do another action.
I believe in these verses God is saying that under the circumstances of their evil God will bring forth judgement. If they turn from evil, God is saying that He will not show judgement but instead mercy.

 

[Beoga]

Can you be responsible for that which you have no control over?

Responsibility requires knowledge and a higher authority. There is no authority above or higher than God for Him to give an account to or submit to. God is then not responsible for his actions. However, Scripture does declare that God is just in all His ways, so even if He ordains evil to occur, then He is just in doing so.
Man is responsible because there is something/someone higher for him to submit to. Man must give an account to the Judge that is above him for all the choices (choice being defined as an action of the mind that initiates and determines a future action) and actions he does.

 

[bradfordl]

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Boxy,
God's predetermining of all things does not remove the contingency of second causes. In the Jeremiah passage you quote, he is addressing this very thing. He is not claiming that He will change His plan, He is declaring that men are responsible for their actions.

Do you mean to imply that God does not know whether those nations WILL or WILL NOT repent of or continue in evil? If He knows the end from the beginning, as scripture plainly teaches, then for this passage to be addressing a possibility that unforeseen events would move Him to alter His plans would be incoherent. In light of other scripture, it must mean that He addressing something else, something to do with man and his linear perspective of events. Man's culpability for his actions in those events.

It is interesting that you avoid answering direct questions. Why is that, Box? Eisegesis of isolated verses that implies a meaning in direct contradiction of other plain scripture won't solve your dilemma.

Would you mind answering this one?:

Quote:
God determines that I sin and then punishes me for doing His will.

Yes. How do you resolve that?

Brad

 

[Boxmaker]

Boxy,
God's predetermining of all things does not remove the contingency of second causes. In the Jeremiah passage you quote, he is addressing this very thing. He is not claiming that He will change His plan, He is declaring that men are responsible for their actions.

Do you mean to imply that God does not know whether those nations WILL or WILL NOT repent of or continue in evil? If He knows the end from the beginning, as scripture plainly teaches, then for this passage to be addressing a possibility that unforeseen events would move Him to alter His plans would be incoherent. In light of other scripture, it must mean that He addressing something else, something to do with man and his linear perspective of events. Man's culpability for his actions in those events.

The verses say that men can choose to obey God or not and God will respond accordingly. That impies that God gave men the ability to choose. God is faithful to and blesses those you oeby Him and punishes those who do not.

It is interesting that you avoid answering direct questions. Why is that, Box? Eisegesis of isolated verses that implies a meaning in direct contradiction of other plain scripture won't solve your dilemma.

Would you mind answering this one?:
Quote:
God determines that I sin and then punishes me for doing His will.

Yes. How do you resolve that?

God's gift of free will. God gave men the ability to choose between obeying Him or not. Thus, God did not creat evil, He created th potential for evil. Evil grew from the heart of Satan and Satan spread that same evil to men. God does not predestine any act of evil. The rapist, the murderer and the theif act of their own God given free will.

When men rebelled God gave us the OT covenenants to teach men that choosing evil over good carried stiff punishments. He wanted men to know that their choices to reject Him would doom them.

Therefore, men are not punished for doing God's will (good). They are punished for rejecting God's will (evil).

 

[Beoga]

God does not predestine any act of evil. The rapist, the murderer and the theif act of their own God given free will.

If God does not predestine evil, how can it be said that Christ was sacrificed by the Jews based on the predetermined plan of God?
Acts 2
22"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- 23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)

 

[bradfordl]

The verses say that men can choose to obey God or not and God will respond accordingly. That impies that God gave men the ability to choose. God is faithful to and blesses those you oeby Him and punishes those who do not.

1. Did God know beforehand whether these nations would repent or not?

God does not predestine any act of evil.

2. Does God predestine anything at all?

The rapist, the murderer and the theif act of their own God given free will.

Of course they do, no-one here has postulated anything otherwise. But answer this (3.) What did Joseph mean when he said, "Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."? Meant it for good? To bring it to pass?

You face the same difficulty that we all do, reconciling the presence of evil in the creation of a good God. Reconciling the responsibility of man for his sin with the fact that the Creator of such a complex universe must have control over the actions of puny little beings such as ourselves. You err in seeking the solutions out of your own wisdom and through the lense of your own limited vision and linear existence. The true answer lies in the Word that God gave you. Stop fighting it, you are only opposing yourself.

Brad

 

[Boxmaker]

1. Did God know beforehand whether these nations would repent or not?

I believe He knows without predestining it.

2. Does God predestine anything at all?

Revelations

Of course they do, no-one here has postulated anything otherwise. But answer this (3.) What did Joseph mean when he said, "Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."? Meant it for good? To bring it to pass?

Joseph was faithful to God during his times of trial and God was faithful to Joseph. God has promised to work all things out for our good. This is what Joseph shows us. If we are faithful to God, God is faithful to us. It does not require that Joseph was predestined. David is a more interesting character here. God constanatly described David as a man after Gods heart. David committed adultery and murder and yet God, who punished David, continued to see David as a man after His own heart. Would not a man like Jesus bring more glory to God than a man like David?

You face the same difficulty that we all do, reconciling the presence of evil in the creation of a good God. Reconciling the responsibility of man for his sin with the fact that the Creator of such a complex universe must have control over the actions of puny little beings such as ourselves. You err in seeking the solutions out of your own wisdom and through the lense of your own limited vision and linear existence. The true answer lies in the Word that God gave you. Stop fighting it, you are only opposing yourself.

Brad

Must have? Why? Do you see it as impossible for God to have given man free will? God knows the hearts of man and what we will do without having to predetermine everything.

Ultimatly, a predestined view of the world means that nothing you do matters. You will either go to heaven or hell and you have no choice in the matter. It makes the great commission a farce because your witnessing does not matter. The person to who you speak is already predestined no matter what you do. Living a Godly life or a life of lusts makes no difference because it has all been predetermined. It is an utterly hopeless doctrine.

The solution lies not in my wisdom, it lies in scripture. Scripture teaches us what God's promisses are and what He expects of us. He created us to respond to home from our corrupt human hearts. We can recognize, with God's help, the depravity of our hearts and understand that God offeres us something better. God wants us to resopond to that offer from faith. There is no faith without choice. There is no choice in the Calvinistic doctrine. Where there is no faith there is no hope.

I'm sorry but I cannot reconcile the verses you quote with the whole of scripture. God has plans and He is fully capable of making those plans come about. rom Genesis to Jesus, God had a plan and worked it out. From Jesus to now, God's plan is different. It is a personal relationship with each of us.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

We can recognize, with God's help,

What happens to those God doesn't help to recognize (using your terms) their depravity?

 

[Boxmaker]

What happens to those God doesn't help to recognize (using your terms) their depravity?

God helps everybody yet some people will refuse that help. Those that refuse God's help don't have their names written in the book of life.

 

[GodsElect]

Those that refuse God's help don't have their names written in the book of life.

Thats right! and that's because they aren't children of God, or one of His sheep. They were never meant to be.

So because you accepted the "help" from God, does that mean that you wrote your own name in the book of life?

...Or was it written by God from the foundation of the world?

 

[FreeInChrist2]

God helps everybody yet some people will refuse that help. Those that refuse God's help don't have their names written in the book of life.

You mean I can't, by my free will choice, choose to get my name put in the Book of life?

I just can't believe that! It's my choice!!! Explain that to me please.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

So because you accepted the "help" from God, does that mean that you wrote your own name in the book of life?

...Or was it written by God from the foundation of the world?

Are you saying if my name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, then I won't refuse God's help?

What happens if my name is written in the book of life and I want to refuse His help with my depravity? Would that mean my name isn't in the book of life?

What would happen if I accepted His help and I was still depraved?

What about if I was just a little bit depraved, would I still need His help?

What if His help really didn't help me, but I got more depraved?

If my name isn't written in the book of life, then would that mean I am a puppet to satan and sin?

If my name is in the book of life then would that mean I am free from being satans puppet?

If my name isn't in the book of life, can't I just get God to throw me a rope? Hum, If my names not in the book of life, then what the heck good is a rope going to do for me? And if it is in the book of life, what the heck do I need a rope for? Hum. Oh yea...The rope is just the helper,or is the helper the rope, or is the helper helped by the rope, NO!... its the rope is being helped by the dead man at the other end of it....YEA! That's it...

The Bible told me so.

 

[Boxmaker]

Thats right! and that's because they aren't children of God, or one of His sheep. They were never meant to be.

So because you accepted the "help" from God, does that mean that you wrote your own name in the book of life?

...Or was it written by God from the foundation of the world?

I would not agree with "never meant to be". God gave His only begotten Son the whosoever believth would be saved. That verse is not written as whosoever God choose and to hell withthe rest.

When I accepted Jesus I did not get handed a pen or shown the book of life so no, accepting Gods help does not mean I wrote me name in the book of life. God did.

 

[Boxmaker]

You mean I can't, by my free will choice, choose to get my name put in the Book of life?

I just can't believe that! It's my choice!!! Explain that to me please.

You and I con only choose to accept Jesus as our saviour or reject Him. God is in charge of the book of life and I, for one, am quite happy with that arrangement.

 

[Boxmaker]

Are you saying if my name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, then I won't refuse God's help?

What happens if my name is written in the book of life and I want to refuse His help with my depravity? Would that mean my name isn't in the book of life?

What would happen if I accepted His help and I was still depraved?

What about if I was just a little bit depraved, would I still need His help?

What if His help really didn't help me, but I got more depraved?

If my name isn't written in the book of life, then would that mean I am a puppet to satan and sin?

If my name is in the book of life then would that mean I am free from being satans puppet?

If my name isn't in the book of life, can't I just get God to throw me a rope? Hum, If my names not in the book of life, then what the heck good is a rope going to do for me? And if it is in the book of life, what the heck do I need a rope for? Hum. Oh yea...The rope is just the helper,or is the helper the rope, or is the helper helped by the rope, NO!... its the rope is being helped by the dead man at the other end of it....YEA! That's it...

The Bible told me so.

 

[Beoga]

Boxmaker-how come you were more willing to accept Jesus when other people are not willing to accept Jesus? What special quality or circumstance did God bless you with?

 

[FreeInChrist2]

I would not agree with "never meant to be". God gave His only begotten Son the whosoever believth would be saved. That verse is not written as whosoever God choose and to hell withthe rest.

When I accepted Jesus I did not get handed a pen or shown the book of life so no, accepting Gods help does not mean I wrote me name in the book of life. God did.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

You and I con only choose to accept Jesus as our saviour or reject Him. God is in charge of the book of life and I, for one, am quite happy with that arrangement.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

See ya Box, I just don't like your tone anymore.