Why do Calvinists....

[Boxmaker]

Man, you are stubborn. You continue to argue contradictory premises even when the scripture is right in front of you. You must not be able to see the hilarity of your position. This is like trying to convince a blind man that the sky is blue when he has decided it is green regardless of all evidence to the contrary. You claim to be an engineer, which requires the use of mathematics and logic, and yet obstinately refuse to accept the plain, unassailable truth of scripture. Your pre-suppositions are founded on the erroneous ideas that freedom and ability are synonymous, that humans deserve a "fair chance" other than hell from God, and that God would somehow need love for him to arise out of free-will for it to have value. God desires that unregenerate men love Him and glorify Him, but that is like me wanting my cat to bark. Now I can't change my cat in such a way that would enable him to do that, although if he had the ability, he's free to try. But God is certainly capable of changing men in such a way that would enable them to love and glorify Him, and He does that very thing to those He chose before the foundations of the world. He owes that to no-one, so it is never "unfair" for Him not to. He cannot need "free-will" love from His children before He carries out this change, because they are incapable of it without that change. Just like my cat can't bark.

Keep wrestling, I did too. Heard the truth of God's election of His saints from a Reformed Baptist preacher/ barber during a hair cut. Had been wrestling with the book of Romans the night before, and what he said made so much sense, but it seemed repulsive to me. I went the next Sunday for the first time to a Nazarene church where the preacher scoffed at that silly "tulip" theology in his sermon. I stuck around for two years trying to hear an explanation that would refute that silly tulip stuff, until the final straw was sitting through a study of Ephesians where the two teachers kept saying "what Paul really meant" was always something different than the plain meaning. It was almost hilarious. I finally had to give up and accept that God was sovereign, that natural man was incapable of saving faith, and that God chose beforehand who would be His and who would not.

You will someday, too. That's why you're here wrangling with us.

Brad

Stubborn or just unshakable faith? From our different prespectives, which is the blind man and which of us sees the sky?

I continue to study and pray for gidance from God as I do so. So far, the Holy Spirit has not convicted me of the truth of your position.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Do you undertand how your TV works? How the data is encoded and decoded, how errors are handled? How the color picture is generated? Can you see that it works?

The kingdom of God is similar. Until you are in it you don't understand it but looking at it from outside reveals that it is a kingdom and that it is attractive.

You do not have to understand something to that it is there. The verse is talking more about Gods commands to than about the kingdom. When we accept Christ we are to be servents to each others. We should put their needs ahead of our own. Our selfish world view does not understand why we would the needs of others ahead of our own. From within the kingdom we see that we love others as Chrsit loved us because Jesus loved us first.

There's that 20th century humanist philospohy filter again.


Let's try it again....

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

You keep emphasizing the second half of the verse, about understanding. What about the first half..."The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him"

It works like this....

"You are a sinner."

"I don't accept that."

"You need a savior."

"No I don't."

"The only way you can be saved from hell is through Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross."

"That's crazy!!"

This is what the natural man...the unregenerate man...wants. His 'free will' is fully involved. He freely sees the things of God as folly.

I really recommend reading Sproul's book that I recommended earlier, and read it until you understand it. You'll be glad you did!! Trust me!

 

[Boxmaker]

There's that 20th century humanist philospohy filter again.


Let's try it again....



You keep emphasizing the second half of the verse, about understanding. What about the first half..."The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him"

It works like this....

"You are a sinner."

"I don't accept that."

"You need a savior."

"No I don't."

"The only way you can be saved from hell is through Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross."

"That's crazy!!"

This is what the natural man...the unregenerate man...wants. His 'free will' is fully involved. He freely sees the things of God as folly.

I really recommend reading Sproul's book that I recommended earlier, and read it until you understand it. You'll be glad you did!! Trust me!

Actually, Jesus's death on the cross only atoned for our sins. Our salvation lies in His resurection.

Anyway, we share the truth, as you described it, with others. That is all we are called to do. They hear the truth and then Jesus goes to work on their heart with that truth. Some people respond to that and some don't.

This forum is a little sheltered from from debates with non-believers. Other forums that discuss Christian theologyonline and allow more debate with non believers. I have talked to people who claim that they were once believers and now have rejected the Chrsitian faith.

It is the classic parrable of the sewer of the seeds. Some never hear. Some hear but are then choked out while others flourish.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Anyway, we share the truth, as you described it, with others. That is all we are called to do.

Amen. We can agree on that statement.

This forum is a little sheltered from from debates with non-believers.

I would think it appears that way to you because it's the 'Reformed forum'. It's a place where those of us who share the Reformed truths can fellowship amongst ourselves. I don't think you have any idea how any of us interact with non-believers.

It is the classic parrable of the sewer of the seeds. Some never hear. Some hear but are then choked out while others flourish.

Interesting you should mention that parable...why would the seed flourish in some soils? Let's take a look.

Luk 8:8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.”


Luk 8:15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Notice...the seed that flourishes lands on the good soil, or the noble and good heart...which the Bible clearly states the unregenerate man does not have. God must first replace the heart of stone with a heart of flesh, then after that miracle, the seed will find good soil.

 

[GodsElect]

God is the only one who can change hearts. The only real difference I see between us is when the change of heart occurs, if you will.

So let's take a look at when this change happens...

Calvinists believe that it is God who changes the person's heart before he/she believes in Him. Do you believe this? We would call this "regeneration." When God "regenerates" the unregenerate heart of the sinner. Do you believe this?

When you pray for unbelieving family, friends, ect..., do you pray to God and ask that He work in that person and change the hearts of those unbelievers so that they may come to Him and to know Jesus Christ as their Savior for the penalty due them for thier sins?

Or do you pray that they, the unbeliever, change their own heart so they may believe in something that they presently do not have the will to believe in? Or just make a blind leap of faith of their own unwilling will?

I would think that you would pray for that person in the manner of the first premise. would you not???

Would you expect a person, who is unwilling, to just willingly choose God unless God changed that persons heart first?

God must first make that unwilling heart a willing heart, would He not? They would surely need a new heart in order to choose willingly, wouldn't they?

They would need that heart of stone to be taken out and be given a heart of flesh, wouldn't they?

Could they do this on thier own "free" will when their will is to be a unbliever in Christ and an unrepentant sinner?
I would think not. do you?

The change of heart MUST come before they even become willing to choose Christ and repent of sins. God must change it, isn't that what you pray for?

People hear thaat truth and God works in their hearts and they either accept that truth or reject it.

How would people believe anything in the bible as "truth" until God worked in the heart first and revealed the "truth"to them FIRST? That His word is the truth? How would you believe in something to be "true" if you had no knowledge of what is true or untrue?

What is untrue that you would believe as true? Without being fully convinced of the fact that it is true?

How would that person see the bible as truth with no heart or mind to know that it is true?

Only unless God gives that new heart first to trust the bible, His word, as truthfull when they hear it. Does someone believe something to be true just because you tell them that it is true? Shouldn't that person KNOW in their heart that these things are true to believe it to be "true"?

You catch what Iam trying to say here Boxman?

I would summerize your beliefe by saying God determined that you would be saved before the earth was formed.

Yes you are correct, their are many scriptures that reveal that truth!

I see man as having a roll in his salvation by having to respond to God. You see man as having no meaningful roll in his salvation.

This is where I think you have this a little confused, please let me explain...

Calvinists never say that we do not play a role in our salvation, afterall, it is for the salvation of "our" souls. We DO have a meaningfull role in our salvation. However our roles and decisions and wills don't play as much of a factor as you would like them to. I mean, what role can we play in the means of the finished work of Christ on the cross 2000 years ago?

And yes, I did make a decision to choose Christ, there is no denying that. I was willing to choose and follow God and come to worship Him for His glory alone. So that is what I did. HOWEVER, why did I become willing to do these things when I previously did not?
Why did I accept the bible as the truth of God's word? How could I have changed my will to follow Him when all I wanted to do is willingly live a life of unrepentant sin and NOT believe? Was my faith and blind leap of faith? I think not.

So how much credit does my will get when it was for GOD changed my heart FIRST and my willingness, who took my heart of stone and gave me a heart of flesh, who changed my unwilling will to willingly come and repent and worship Him?

And how big of a role do I play in the supernatural act of God in changing the heart of a degenerate unrepentant sinner?

What more do I have to do in my role for salvation that Christ has already done? How big of a role would that have to be before I would be saved?

Who gets the credit for God doing a work in my heart? Who has to play any role for Christ's work on the cross?

Who gets the credit for giving us a new heart, in which if He hadn't done this, we wouldn't even want to come to Him, we would still be dead in sin, we would be alienated from the knowledge of the truth, we would not CHOOSE HIM AT ALL!

Do you think that you have to do something to merit God's favor? As if your best worldly works or choices would impress the favor of an ALL knowing, ALL seeing, ALL creating, ALL working in His own ceation GOD?

How good was your "Free Will" in salvation when your will was a SLAVE TO SIN?


talk soon, GE

 

[GodsElect]

They hear the truth and then Jesus goes to work on their heart with that truth. Some people respond to that and some don't.

This applies to my previous statement about how one knows what the truth is.

How can one know the gospel is truth if the work hadn't ALREADY BEEN DONE?

And when you see these things as "truth", can you really reject something that you know is true? If you know it and are convinced that something is true, can you still reject it to be UNTRUE???

 

[kimlva]

People hear thaat truth and God works in their hearts and they either accept that truth or reject it.

Boy, am I glad I was smart enough and good enough to accept that wonderful offer! I know a whole lot of really stupid, wicked people who have rejected it. I am just so thankful I'm not as wicked and stupid and evil as they are! Imagine! Rejecting a wonderful offer like that from such a beautiful, loving Savior! How stupid can some people be?! Thank the Lord I am not like them!

 

[Boxmaker]

Boy, am I glad I was smart enough and good enough to accept that wonderful offer! I know a whole lot of really stupid, wicked people who have rejected it. I am just so thankful I'm not as wicked and stupid and evil as they are! Imagine! Rejecting a wonderful offer like that from such a beautiful, loving Savior! How stupid can some people be?! Thank the Lord I am not like them!

I'm glad for you too!

 

[Boxmaker]

Amen. We can agree on that statement.



I would think it appears that way to you because it's the 'Reformed forum'. It's a place where those of us who share the Reformed truths can fellowship amongst ourselves. I don't think you have any idea how any of us interact with non-believers.




Interesting you should mention that parable...why would the seed flourish in some soils? Let's take a look.



Notice...the seed that flourishes lands on the good soil, or the noble and good heart...which the Bible clearly states the unregenerate man does not have. God must first replace the heart of stone with a heart of flesh, then after that miracle, the seed will find good soil.

The strongest argument I have seen for reformed theology comes from the step son of a good friend. His 18th birthday is 3/10. For his birthday he is getting kicked out of the house. This is a bad kid. He spent about 3 years in jail for grand theft auto. He swears it was not theft because the people left their keys in the car so it was okay for him to take it. He is phjysically and verbally abusive to his mother. The mother and step father are strong christians (open view) and have done everything they can to encourage a relationship with God. It doesn't work and the kid is getting meaner everyday. Hence, the birthday gift.

It really seems that this kid was born with a bad heart while his mom, step dad and other members of the house were born with nobel hearts. This kid makes me believe that some people are born with hearts inclined towards God and others are not.

 

[Beoga]

It really seems that this kid was born with a bad heart while his mom, step dad and other members of the house were born with nobel hearts. This kid makes me believe that some people are born with hearts inclined towards God and others are not.

And who makes the heart of a man?
How does this thought fit with:
Jeremiah 17:9
9The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
Genesis 6
5The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Romans 3
9What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

 

[bradfordl]

Originally Posted by kimlva
Boy, am I glad I was smart enough and good enough to accept that wonderful offer! I know a whole lot of really stupid, wicked people who have rejected it. I am just so thankful I'm not as wicked and stupid and evil as they are! Imagine! Rejecting a wonderful offer like that from such a beautiful, loving Savior! How stupid can some people be?! Thank the Lord I am not like them!
I'm glad for you too!

Where's that falling down laughing smilie when you need it? This'll have to do:

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Brad

 

[heymikey80]

The strongest argument I have seen for reformed theology comes from the step son of a good friend. His 18th birthday is 3/10. For his birthday he is getting kicked out of the house. This is a bad kid. He spent about 3 years in jail for grand theft auto. He swears it was not theft because the people left their keys in the car so it was okay for him to take it. He is phjysically and verbally abusive to his mother. The mother and step father are strong christians (open view) and have done everything they can to encourage a relationship with God. It doesn't work and the kid is getting meaner everyday. Hence, the birthday gift.

It really seems that this kid was born with a bad heart while his mom, step dad and other members of the house were born with nobel hearts. This kid makes me believe that some people are born with hearts inclined towards God and others are not.

In general it's an inconsistent approach to kids where suspicion or a split has been awakened in their lives -- often through divorce or just plain immorality, not heeding the moral direction of our lives, that spins a kid off in this direction.

In fact, that reminds me, I need to write a letter ....

Plug him in to us. If he dares think that Christianity might be true, that is, and that his parents have been misled about Who God is, and everything God knows about him.

Where'd "Thou shalt not steal" go to this guy? Hm, and have you ever thought about printing out the Westminster Larger Catechism on the Ten Commandments? They express the real purpose of the Law, and would be a cold slap of reality regarding what he just did.

But bear in mind, the Ten Commandments are great at exposing everyone's hypocrisy. But if he thinks he can get away with this, it's clearly not the case.

 

[bradfordl]

Originally Posted by Boxmaker
The strongest argument I have seen for reformed theology comes from the step son of a good friend. His 18th birthday is 3/10. For his birthday he is getting kicked out of the house. This is a bad kid. He spent about 3 years in jail for grand theft auto. He swears it was not theft because the people left their keys in the car so it was okay for him to take it. He is phjysically and verbally abusive to his mother. The mother and step father are strong christians (open view) and have done everything they can to encourage a relationship with God. It doesn't work and the kid is getting meaner everyday. Hence, the birthday gift.

It really seems that this kid was born with a bad heart while his mom, step dad and other members of the house were born with nobel hearts. This kid makes me believe that some people are born with hearts inclined towards God and others are not.

Deu 11:19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 32:46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.
Pro 19:26 He that wasteth his father, and chaseth away his mother, is a son that causeth shame, and bringeth reproach.
Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This is typical of non-covenantal believers. They foreswear the promises of God, then when put to shame by their kids, wring their hands and say, "we did the best we could", and all their friends just feel so bad for them. But the scriptures don't lie, and don't make "suggestions". What God commands and what God promises He always means. The word says a son like this is a shame to the parents. Why would that be?
Because they didn't believe the promises of God and act accordingly. But that's not surprising "open view" folks would have this problem. They view all of history and God's plan to be a crap shoot, so why not the outcome of the raising of their children? Very sad.

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Brad

 

[Boxmaker]

In general it's an inconsistent approach to kids where suspicion or a split has been awakened in their lives -- often through divorce or just plain immorality, not heeding the moral direction of our lives, that spins a kid off in this direction.

In fact, that reminds me, I need to write a letter ....

Plug him in to us. If he dares think that Christianity might be true, that is, and that his parents have been misled about Who God is, and everything God knows about him.

Where'd "Thou shalt not steal" go to this guy? Hm, and have you ever thought about printing out the Westminster Larger Catechism on the Ten Commandments? They express the real purpose of the Law, and would be a cold slap of reality regarding what he just did.

But bear in mind, the Ten Commandments are great at exposing everyone's hypocrisy. But if he thinks he can get away with this, it's clearly not the case.

You don't understand. He doesn't care. Someplace along the line he heard about universalism and he figures that he'll get a second chance after he dies. I parents (mom and step dad) have been working to teach him that universalism is bunk. It gives him a false hope so he clings to it.

As to the ten commandments, he doesn't care. He sees the whole world as being against him.

 

[Boxmaker]

Originally Posted by Boxmaker
The strongest argument I have seen for reformed theology comes from the step son of a good friend. His 18th birthday is 3/10. For his birthday he is getting kicked out of the house. This is a bad kid. He spent about 3 years in jail for grand theft auto. He swears it was not theft because the people left their keys in the car so it was okay for him to take it. He is phjysically and verbally abusive to his mother. The mother and step father are strong christians (open view) and have done everything they can to encourage a relationship with God. It doesn't work and the kid is getting meaner everyday. Hence, the birthday gift.

It really seems that this kid was born with a bad heart while his mom, step dad and other members of the house were born with nobel hearts. This kid makes me believe that some people are born with hearts inclined towards God and others are not.

This is typical of non-covenantal believers. They foreswear the promises of God, then when put to shame by their kids, wring their hands and say, "we did the best we could", and all their friends just feel so bad for them. But the scriptures don't lie, and don't make "suggestions". What God commands and what God promises He always means. The word says a son like this is a shame to the parents. Why would that be?
Because they didn't believe the promises of God and act accordingly. But that's not surprising "open view" folks would have this problem. They view all of history and God's plan to be a crap shoot, so why not the outcome of the raising of their children? Very sad.

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Brad

You don't get it either. The mom and step dad are good christians. They have used the rod. They were the ones that sent him to jail for several years in an attempt to teach him the breaking laws have consequences. If they can get him to understand that in the flesh then maybe he can make a connection as see that the consequences in the spiritual realm are far worse.

What makes you think they forswor any of God's promise? Just becuase we are believers dopes not mean our lives will be perfect and our children well behaved.

At this point they are just following the Bible regarding church discipline. He is going to be turned out that his flesh may sonsumed by satan that his spirit might be saved.

By the way, how many calvinists have had trouble with their children? If their beliefs are so perfect why do they have problems/

 

[Boxmaker]

Man! You guys are something esle, you know that?! I post something that is as close to calvinist thinking as I have ever come and you start ragging on the parents without knowing anything about them. Brad even said that God sent this son to punish them because they don't believe the right thing about God! (Thats a paraphrase by the way. He will say that I miss-understood what he said which is fine. What he needs to understand is that that is what I heard in his statement.)

Just out of curiosity, what your response have been if this family held the "proper" calvinist view of God?

 

[bradfordl]

Pro 19:26 He that wasteth his father, and chaseth away his mother, is a son that causeth shame, and bringeth reproach.
Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

So was God mistaken when He said that a son like this is a shame to his mother? Why is it not only his own shame? Because the parents have responsibility in the matter.

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Is this verse a suggestion, or is it a promise? There are many calvinists that have rebellious, even unsaved children. It means the same thing. It is a shame to them because they failed to believe God's promises and follow His instructions. But an "open christian" starts out from a basis of not believing God's promises, not even believing in a god that is scriptural, so even in their best efforts it is from unbelief, and therefore hold no promise. Lots of calvinists do the same thing. It's pretty sad.

What makes you think they forswor any of God's promise?

1. Open christians.
2. They have a rebellious son - a shame to them according to scripture.

SDG,

Brad

 

[bradfordl]

Brad even said that God sent this son to punish them because they don't believe the right thing about God!

You know I didn't say that. I quoted scripture.

Just out of curiosity, what your response have been if this family held the "proper" calvinist view of God?

The exact same thing. As a matter of fact, one elderly couple who are very dear to us that we attend Church with have unbelieving children, and are quite open about the fact that it was their failure take seriously the promises of God and His instructions regarding the children He gave them that is a factor in their condition. They have been presbyterian and calvinist all their lives, but in the 60's and 70's got caught up in careers and materialism, and failed their children. They admonish those of us with young children to not make the same mistake.

Brad

 

[heymikey80]

You don't understand. He doesn't care. Someplace along the line he heard about universalism and he figures that he'll get a second chance after he dies. I parents (mom and step dad) have been working to teach him that universalism is bunk. It gives him a false hope so he clings to it.

What would cause him to lose respect for their views of God?

Might I ask, how might their view of Openness leave open the possibility that he can convince God to ... be more open to his rebellion?

How is his biological father involved?

As to the ten commandments, he doesn't care. He sees the whole world as being against him.

Well then why does he believe that the Creator of this whole world is gonna be nice to him when he dies?

He's saying this world is against him.
He's also against what the Creator declares is right.
​

This is obvious; universalism can't even enter the picture. The Creator is not going to be pleased with him afterward.

 

[GodsElect]

Just out of curiosity, what your response have been if this family held the "proper" calvinist view of God?

Well the question is, when did this family (parents) start to follow the christian faith? Have they raised their child up in the church? With a proper view of God and the teaching of the law to their sons/daughters as young children? Did the parents teach their children the way they should go in faith and obedience in Jesus Chirst at a young age? Did they teach their children the undeniable truth of the gospel and sovereignty of God? Did they teach them the truth and then teach them to excersise their own "free will" to make a choice if they wanted to believe or not? If they did, then they can see right now how that view of Christianity just falls apart.

But anyway, my answer to your question...

If this family would have the calvinist view of christianity, they would fully know and trust that God's will, in the life of their disobedient child, WILL STAND! They would know that we were ALL BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH!(Eph 2:3) They would be praying to God that HIS will be done in their lives. They would pray for God to change the heart and call upon their son to walk in the ways of the Lord. And know! that if their child is a covenant child of God, he will be called to obedience. They wouldn't pray for their "FREE WILL", look where that gets ya.
Look at the way they believe now. They believe that their choices (open view) determine the outcome of their situations in the end. But if they were calvinists, they would know that their sons choices and disobedience has already been planned and seen by God for His glory and thier son's good. They would know that Gods decisions of the outcome, dictate the actions and wills of man, and that God will bring it to pass. And know that truly God knows what He is doing in the life of thier son, that they may send him out on his way, so that the Lord may bring him to his knees for the shame that he may see in his life of depravity apart from God. Because if it were up to the son's "FREE WILL" he would NEVER EVER choose GOD! Until people understand that, they can never say that they fully trust in the power of God and His will be done.

.....I was once that family's son.